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Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly.....[W:696:1188]

Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

AJiveMan said:
NO. The BLM is an enforcement agency, and has nothing to do with applying liens to property, that is the duty of the federal court system.
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Uhm I think you are missing my point through the trees. As my point included (at least to me) that redundant fact, yes, I agree that the BLM has to actually file a lien, aka place a lien in a court in order to effect a property lien. I mean is that not perfectly obvious to you? It is to me. I guess you could call it common sense or tribal knowledge?
 
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Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
The Feds can put a lien on his property & freeze his bank accounts.
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At this point they probably will. But that doesn't solve the problem of getting his cows off federal land which was their main intent all along.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Filthy McNasty said:
Uhm I think you are missing my point through the trees. As my point included (at least to me) that redundant fact, yes, I agree that the BLM has to actually file a lien, aka place a lien in a court in order to effect a property lien. I mean is that not perfectly obvious to you? It is to me. I guess you could call it common sense or tribal knowledge?
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No, the BLM doesn't file liens.

The BLM is strictly an enforcement & investigatory agency which reports to the federal government and submits evidence to a federal prosecutor, requests for liens are filed by the federal government, and the courts review evidence presented BY the BLM and federal prosecutor, and review the amounts owed TO the federal government, make decisions, and hand down judgements.

You put the horse before the cart.
 
re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:696]

apdst said:
If the BLM doesnt have legal authorization as a law enforcement agency/police force, then yes, it's unlawful. Can you show us its authorization?
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If you took 30 seconds to do the barest amount of research online you would find this at the BLM's own website:

The BLM fields a force of approximately 200 Law Enforcement Rangers (uniformed officers) and 70 Special Agents (criminal investigators) who enforce a wide range of laws and regulations in the prevention, detection, and investigation of crimes affecting public lands resources. These crimes include mineral resource theft; wilderness area violations; hazardous materials dumping; archaeological and paleontological resource theft and vandalism; cultivation, manufacture, smuggling, and use of illegal drugs; timber, forest product, and native plant theft; off-highway vehicle use; alcohol related crimes; and wildland arson.

Law Enforcement
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
The Feds can put a lien on his property & freeze his bank accounts.
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That's about it in a nutshell. People here seem to think the BLM can cut corners and not have to use the court system to go after people who violate federal laws. Some are still of the belief that the BLM can arbitrarily or unilaterally place liens upon a person's property, and we know better, don't we tres borrachos.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

AJiveMan said:
No, the BLM doesn't file liens.

The BLM is strictly an enforcement & investigatory agency which reports to the federal government and submits evidence to a federal prosecutor, requests for liens are filed by the federal government, and the courts review evidence presented BY the BLM and federal prosecutor, and review the amounts owed TO the federal government, make decisions, and hand down judgements.

You put the horse before the cart.
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Well then as the young ones say, my bad! Poor wording on my part, however this does not alter my point and the fact that this is a viable and frequently used method the BLM takes advantage of and has for some time. And is only one of many possible ways the stated goals of the BLM with regard to the Bundy case could have been accomplished. The desire to grand stand and make a strong show of force was the choice they opted for instead. Hindsight being 20/20 it was the wrong choice and managed to cost several times the amount of money used as justification for the whole boondoggle. What a sorry state of affairs.
 
re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:696]

beefheart said:
Sometimes, having a debate here is like shooting big fish in a small barrel with a large gun.
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I can see why people have fear of government agencies, they just don't understand how the government really works. I believe we both, along with another member drained the fish barrel, what say you?
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

AJiveMan said:
That's about it in a nutshell. People here seem to think the BLM can cut corners and not have to use the court system to go after people who violate federal laws. Some are still of the belief that the BLM can arbitrarily or unilaterally place liens upon a person's property, and we know better, don't we tres borrachos.
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The BLM can only enforce liens. They can't actually perfect liens.

The failure here when it comes to the money owed was the US government's failure. They should have placed a lien on his property and frozen his bank accounts, but they didn't.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
The BLM can only enforce liens. They can't actually perfect liens.

The failure here when it comes to the money owed was the US government's failure. They should have placed a lien on his property and frozen his bank accounts, but they didn't.
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And again, this is only one way the situation could have been handled as far as Bundy's debt is concerned. BLM has handled situations like this before, seems the show of force mindset won out this time.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Filthy McNasty said:
Well then as the young ones say, my bad. Poor wording on my part, however this does not alter my point and the fact that this is a viable and frequently used method the BLM takes advantage of and has for some time. And is only one of many possible ways the stated goals of the BLM with regard to the Bundy case could have been accomplished. The desire to grand stand and make a strong show of force was the choice they opted for instead. Hindsight being 20/20 it was the wrong choice and managed to cost several times the amount of money used as justification for the whole affair. What a sorry state of affairs.
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Well, when you're the head of a federal agency, and you're forewarned of possible or impending trouble with an armed group of people, you must show up being prepared.

With that being said, the BLM and federal agents showed up with a handful of people. The first thing I would have done would have been to clear that overpass where the militia sniper was positioned, and placed federal agents in their place. Yepper, hindsight is always 20/20. If I would have been in charge of that operation, I would have handled the situation much differently.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
That's the $1 million question.
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A head of cattle sells for $1000. Apparently, Bundy has over 1200 head on federal land. By removing the cattle and selling them at auction the feds would have solved two problems at once. Bundy had a court order not to interfere with the round up....instead he declared a range war and called in the militia. Ignoring that court order should land him in jail.

The reason Bundy refused to pay the federal land use fees is because he claims the land belongs to the state of Nevada and he didn't think he should have to pay a federal tax of $1.35 per head of cattle for using state land to graze his cows. Originally he only had about 400 or 500 head on federal land....but over the years he expanded and now has well over 1200. That's not fair to the ranchers who do pay their taxes and don't over graze the land.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
The BLM can only enforce liens. They can't actually perfect liens.

The failure here when it comes to the money owed was the US government's failure. They should have placed a lien on his property and frozen his bank accounts, but they didn't.
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Exactly.
 
re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:696]

AJiveMan said:
I can see why people have fear of government agencies, they just don't understand how the government really works. I believe we both, along with another member drained the fish barrel, what say you?
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Heck,the fish stopped flopping a long time ago....
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
The BLM can only enforce liens. They can't actually perfect liens.

The failure here when it comes to the money owed was the US government's failure. They should have placed a lien on his property and frozen his bank accounts, but they didn't.
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That still doesn't solve the problem of getting his cows off federal land.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Moot said:
That still doesn't solve the problem of getting his cows off federal land.
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Cowboys hired by the fed, and barbed wire fence crew, by federal order.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Moot said:
That still doesn't solve the problem of getting his cows off federal land.
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Why the concern over the cattle on the land?

He'll end up paying the money somehow because Uncle Sam is more powerful than any single citizen, with or without armed friends.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

AJiveMan said:
Cowboys hired by the fed, and barbed wire fence crew, by federal order.
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It's open range and other ranchers who do have permits use that land as well.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

AJiveMan said:
Well, when you're the head of a federal agency, and you're forewarned of possible or impending trouble with an armed group of people, you must show up being prepared.

With that being said, the BLM and federal agents showed up with a handful of people. The first thing I would have done would have been to clear that overpass where the militia sniper was positioned, and placed federal agents in their place. Yepper, hindsight is always 20/20. If I would have been in charge of that operation, I would have handled the situation much differently.
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So which is it? The BLM initially showed up with only a handful of people or with a armed group of people because they were forewarned? Both can't be the case. Given that info before hand, the option to handle the situation differently could have been exercised. Particularly if they knew ahead of time there would be trouble. The public is still sensitive to anything looking like Ruby Ridge and Waco and this show of force played right into it. And backfired on them.

In the end, they will get what they are owed and by methods they should have just utilized in the first place.
 
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Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
Why the concern over the cattle on the land?
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Where Bundy's cows are concerned it's called 'free loading'.


He'll end up paying the money somehow because Uncle Sam is more powerful than any single citizen, with or without armed friends.
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I suppose they could put a lien on his land but unless he tries to sell it, which seems unlikely...it probably won't effect him at all.
 
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Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Moot said:
Where Bundy's cows are concerned it's called free loading.




I suppose they can put a lien on his land but unless he tries to sell it, which seems unlikely...it probably won't effect him at all.
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Meh, I guess I really don't care about his cows being on the land. It's not like anyone else needed to use it, and in the grand scheme of things, it's so tiny.

The lien may not affect him, but it would affect his heirs as the title couldn't be transferred with an encumbrance on it.
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

Filthy McNasty said:
I just suggested a course of action in# 495 that the BLM uses frequently. That was kicked around by sources such as NPR, CNN and even MSNBC. Hardly right wing or conservative outlets. The consensus among most reasonable people is that this situation could obviously have been handled better and in a multitude of other ways. Why pretend otherwise?
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That's quite fascinating. A multitude of other ways, huh. You are treating this like a logical man that has a gripe with the US government. In my opinion, I personally believe that you can't discuss logic with a man that is prepared to do the following:

Oath Keeper Richard Mack told Fox News in an interview today that if the Bundy Ranch standoff had continued, or if federal agents started shooting, they planned to put women in front of the men in order to generate sympathy and publicity.
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Yeah, that's right, Richard Mack; the same man that collaborated with white supremacist Randy Weaver on a book. Cliven Bundy associates with people like that and then has the audacity to use Martin Luther King as part of a winning argument on what he thinks about Blacks and how he thinks that Martin Luther King's job is not finished? Yeah, OK. :roll:

I believe that no matter the way the ordeal would've been handled, Cliven Bundy and his bunch would make sure it would be nasty.

Seriously. Use women as a point of favoritism to get sympathy. Didn't Al-Qaeda use women and children as shields? And someone thinks there are reasonable methods to deal with these people; that's hard to believe.


Cliven Bundy And Pals Planned To Use Women As Human Shields
 
Re: Bundy questioned whether blacks were better off as slaves

tres borrachos said:
Meh, I guess I really don't care about his cows being on the land. It's not like anyone else needed to use it, and in the grand scheme of things, it's so tiny.
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For a lot of people it's not about Bundy's cows but rather in preserving an endangered tortoise and rare vegetation that if overgrazed is gone forever. It's not just desert....there's a huge underground lake under Clarke county and so it is my understanding that there are other people who want to use that land and willing to pay for it, but they can't until Bundy's cows are removed.

The lien may not affect him, but it would affect his heirs as the title couldn't be transferred with an encumbrance on it
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Hence the option to wait until he dies....and judging by that belly of his...it might not be that long of a wait.

But what if his land is already deeded to his heirs? He does have quite a large family and they seem just as ignorant as the old man.
 
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