• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

tecoyah said:
It is interesting that Todays Republicans seem so fixated on healthcare (ACA, VA, Costs..etc..) yet have never offered a solution.
Click to expand...

Actually, for the last 20 years I have been saying that before the Government even tries to take over the healthcare system of the entire country, they need to fix the VA first.

When the Government can't even adequately handle the healthcare of Veterans alone (who make up less then 5% of the population), how can they be trusted to handle the other 95%?
 
Oozlefinch said:
First of all, let me say this loud and clear in case nobody else has:

The military has nothing to do with the Veterans Administration!

The VA is a completely separate cabinet level department. The military does not run it, the military does not work in it, the military has nothing to do with it, other then being the source of those they take care of.

Period.

And why are you shocked? The VA is a perfect example of Government Medical Care at it's finest. It has been an abortion for 30 years, and will continue to be an abortion 30 years from now. Ask pretty much any Veteran, and we can tell you horror stories about the VA.

Point in fact, my wife did her residency at a VA hospital. She has told me for over 20 years that she would never let me be put into one.
Click to expand...

Technically, the VA system falls under the Department of Veterans Affairs, so we don't disagree on that point. However, there is collaboration between DOD and DVA and both departments advocate on a range of issues related to veterans' care. Furthermore, DOD has included the issue of veterans' health care in its Quadrennial Reviews in the past e.g., pp.49-50 (http://www.defense.gov/qdr/qdr as of 26jan10 0700.pdf).

As noted previously, with the Walter Reed scandal, Secretary of Defense Gates responded decisively. Given his track record, I highly doubt that General Shinseki, who heads the DVA, would be passive had he known about the problems plaguing the Phoenix VA system. Indeed, it is entirely plausible that the Phoenix managers feared that they would be held accountable for their performance and tried to evade accountability by providing false information to Washington. The investigations that follow will reveal more information on that front.
 
Oozlefinch said:
First of all, let me say this loud and clear in case nobody else has:

The military has nothing to do with the Veterans Administration!

The VA is a completely separate cabinet level department. The military does not run it, the military does not work in it, the military has nothing to do with it, other then being the source of those they take care of.

Period.

And why are you shocked? The VA is a perfect example of Government Medical Care at it's finest. It has been an abortion for 30 years, and will continue to be an abortion 30 years from now. Ask pretty much any Veteran, and we can tell you horror stories about the VA.

Point in fact, my wife did her residency at a VA hospital. She has told me for over 20 years that she would never let me be put into one.
Click to expand...

The most likely proposed "solution" to any truly screwed up federal gov't program, agency or department is to give it more funding and greater power. ;)
 
Oozlefinch said:
First of all, let me say this loud and clear in case nobody else has:

The military has nothing to do with the Veterans Administration!

The VA is a completely separate cabinet level department. The military does not run it, the military does not work in it, the military has nothing to do with it, other then being the source of those they take care of.

Period.

And why are you shocked? The VA is a perfect example of Government Medical Care at it's finest. It has been an abortion for 30 years, and will continue to be an abortion 30 years from now. Ask pretty much any Veteran, and we can tell you horror stories about the VA.

Point in fact, my wife did her residency at a VA hospital. She has told me for over 20 years that she would never let me be put into one.
Click to expand...

Good post, but not exactly accurate any longer. More and more, US military hospitals are handling VA overload. The US Air Force Academy hospital in Colorado Springs is a good example. They handle a lot of eye-related surgery for the VA here in Colorado. But the attempt at integrating air force and VA databases has proven a typical government nightmare.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Actually, for the last 20 years I have been saying that before the Government even tries to take over the healthcare system of the entire country, they need to fix the VA first.

When the Government can't even adequately handle the healthcare of Veterans alone (who make up less then 5% of the population), how can they be trusted to handle the other 95%?
Click to expand...

How many Vets do you know...and how many complain about the VA?

The media will obviously pick up on any possible negative, and ignore anything positive....as it does with pretty much everything. Yet, I have never heard a Veteran soldier complain about care at the VA....and I know a few.

Please do not take your hatred of government into this sector...unless you have some idea what you are talking about.
 
The VA has very high patient rating surveys, usually better than other civilian hospitals. I have been reading about this most of the day. It appears to me the managers in Pheonix were lying upstream to make themselves look better. That would me as an organization the VA would not stand for having patients wait so long. It sounds to me like it was the local VA's corrupt management that is the problem. Of course the VA is responsible for its management...
tecoyah said:
How many Vets do you know...and how many complain about the VA?

The media will obviously pick up on any possible negative, and ignore anything positive....as it does with pretty much everything. Yet, I have never heard a Veteran soldier complain about care at the VA....and I know a few.

Please do not take your hatred of government into this sector...unless you have some idea what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
 
notquiteright said:
No, it's not.

The VA was never a serious attempt to replace for profit healthcare for service members. Ever... ever...

It is now a salve the 'never served' chest thumpers try and smear on vets to feel like 'they support the troops'. Thanks but I sure don't need your 'support'... :roll:

Since the 70's the VA has always been the last resort. In the 80's President Reagan elevating the VA to cabinet level did little more than create more overhead and make the top tier administrators political appointees.

Most vets risked little more than a paper cut while serving, most go on to spend 30+ years in the civilian sector and most retirees have been drawing 1/2 pay the entire time they worked another job. Depending on the VA only for healthcare is ignorant for the vast majority of vets.

The VA hospital system should be for disabled vets only.

What the rest of us could use is a voucher or discount system to use in the civilian world. A supplement to our civilian health care insurance. Disabled or critical health care vets get a bigger discount but the idea of a stand alone healthcare system- that's called reinventing the wheel around here- is flawed. back in the 1920-30's the idea of healthcare, insurance and benefits was revolutionary and cutting edge... now the VA has been overtaken by civilian healthcare.

Most in the National Guard can't use the VA system as they live in small towns far away from 'Capital City'. It is of little use to many who served in the recent wars unless they uproot their families to move to a city with a VA care center.

I hope and pray I NEVER need the VA when it comes to healthcare or a nursing home. For a lot of vets the VA healthcare system is a 'benefit' we damn sure don't want.

Use the VA system for critical care vets, voucher the rest of us and the never served ranters can at ease with the comparisons of VA with ACA. :doh
Click to expand...
I agree with much of what you said. There is another component that has made getting on VA disability ever more attractive. Concurrent Disability.
 
tecoyah said:
How many Vets do you know...and how many complain about the VA?

The media will obviously pick up on any possible negative, and ignore anything positive....as it does with pretty much everything. Yet, I have never heard a Veteran soldier complain about care at the VA....and I know a few.

Please do not take your hatred of government into this sector...unless you have some idea what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Actually one of the best parts about the VA is sitting in the waiting rooms and playing "My favorite VA horror story is..."

Lots of vets...and lots of horror stories. There are lots of horror stories about the active duty military med providers too (ask any servicemember what Motrin cures). Lots of good...but lots of horror stories.

Most of the VAs are training facilities. They get great surgeons because they are working with med universities. Unfortunately you also get a fair share of residents and student nurses.
 
tecoyah said:
How many Vets do you know...and how many complain about the VA?

The media will obviously pick up on any possible negative, and ignore anything positive....as it does with pretty much everything. Yet, I have never heard a Veteran soldier complain about care at the VA....and I know a few.

Please do not take your hatred of government into this sector...unless you have some idea what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

OMG, really?

As an FTI, I am in the military myself, and have served under every President since the first Reagan administration.

So do you really want to go there?

During my 14 years in civilian life, I had to deal with the VA many times. And it was always a freaking nightmare. Report in for my evaluation within 90 days of discharge, and am told by an administrator that my disability had been reduced from 10% to 0%. Typical 3-9 month waits for even basic care for a service connected disability. Having completely incompetent doctors evaluating me, one so senile he tried to examine my elbow and wrist instead of my knee (3 times!).

Fighting to get dental care while a full time student, being denied repeatedly. Only to get a letter 3 months after I graduated saying that I was indeed covered, but since I was no longer in school they would not take care of the issue. After both my recruiter and myself requesting my military and medical records for 13 months, having to go to my Congressman and having them both in hand a week later.

Having a good friend who took 6 months to get his internal medicine appointment, only to be told he had prostate cancer. Waiting list was 3 months for surgery, he died 2 weeks before it was scheduled.

My own grandfather, a WWII vet. Went in because of breathing problems, after 3 weeks of him getting weaker and weaker with no diagnosis my father took him out of the hospital and flew him to Scripps-Kettering. Within 24 hours they had it diagnosed as a fungal infection, and he was home within 2 weeks.

And then there is my GI Bill, also administered by the VA. I was literally 3 days from the school dropping me for nonpayment and had yet to get the stipend. At least I finally got the check and paid back the 2 months of back rent before I was evicted.

Funny how you say you have never had issues with the VA, because most I know of find it a bloody nightmare. And I was not alone, every veteran in my class (there were 8 of us) had the exact same problem. And now they are threatening to sue me because they say they overpaid me $8k in benefits during the 9 months I was in school (that was pretty much the entire stipend for the time).
 
Oozlefinch said:
OMG, really?

As an FTI, I am in the military myself, and have served under every President since the first Reagan administration.

So do you really want to go there?

During my 14 years in civilian life, I had to deal with the VA many times. And it was always a freaking nightmare. Report in for my evaluation within 90 days of discharge, and am told by an administrator that my disability had been reduced from 10% to 0%. Typical 3-9 month waits for even basic care for a service connected disability. Having completely incompetent doctors evaluating me, one so senile he tried to examine my elbow and wrist instead of my knee (3 times!).

Fighting to get dental care while a full time student, being denied repeatedly. Only to get a letter 3 months after I graduated saying that I was indeed covered, but since I was no longer in school they would not take care of the issue. After both my recruiter and myself requesting my military and medical records for 13 months, having to go to my Congressman and having them both in hand a week later.

Having a good friend who took 6 months to get his internal medicine appointment, only to be told he had prostate cancer. Waiting list was 3 months for surgery, he died 2 weeks before it was scheduled.

My own grandfather, a WWII vet. Went in because of breathing problems, after 3 weeks of him getting weaker and weaker with no diagnosis my father took him out of the hospital and flew him to Scripps-Kettering. Within 24 hours they had it diagnosed as a fungal infection, and he was home within 2 weeks.

And then there is my GI Bill, also administered by the VA. I was literally 3 days from the school dropping me for nonpayment and had yet to get the stipend. At least I finally got the check and paid back the 2 months of back rent before I was evicted.

Funny how you say you have never had issues with the VA, because most I know of find it a bloody nightmare. And I was not alone, every veteran in my class (there were 8 of us) had the exact same problem. And now they are threatening to sue me because they say they overpaid me $8k in benefits during the 9 months I was in school (that was pretty much the entire stipend for the time).
Click to expand...

Sorry for your grief....and thank you for your service.

It is most unfortunate you were treated in a way similar to civilian medical care, as this is not the norm. Fortunately, you did not need to pay for it as well.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Actually, for the last 20 years I have been saying that before the Government even tries to take over the healthcare system of the entire country, they need to fix the VA first.

When the Government can't even adequately handle the healthcare of Veterans alone (who make up less then 5% of the population), how can they be trusted to handle the other 95%?
Click to expand...

Because the VA system has been separated from the rest of the healthcare system and has highly limited resources. A universal healthcare system wouldn't have that problem, as any doctor or any hospital would be accessible. Additionally, not every universal health care system is the government "taking over" the entire healthcare system. In France, for example, doctors are not government employees.
 
Deuce said:
Because the VA system has been separated from the rest of the healthcare system and has highly limited resources. A universal healthcare system wouldn't have that problem, as any doctor or any hospital would be accessible. Additionally, not every universal health care system is the government "taking over" the entire healthcare system. In France, for example, doctors are not government employees.
Click to expand...

yes it would it would still have a limit on resources for a given year.
sorry if you want rationed care please move. i prefer non-rationed care.

walter reed, VA, medicaid are the perfect examples of why we don't want government taking over the healthcare industry.
 
ludin said:
yes it would it would still have a limit on resources for a given year.
sorry if you want rationed care please move. i prefer non-rationed care.
Click to expand...
We have always rationed health care in this country.

walter reed, VA, medicaid are the perfect examples of why we don't want government taking over the healthcare industry.
Click to expand...
You guys throw around the phrase "taking over" in so many contexts that it has lost meaning.
 
Deuce said:
Because the VA system has been separated from the rest of the healthcare system and has highly limited resources. A universal healthcare system wouldn't have that problem, as any doctor or any hospital would be accessible. Additionally, not every universal health care system is the government "taking over" the entire healthcare system. In France, for example, doctors are not government employees.
Click to expand...

And you dodge the point that if they can't even adequately care for such a small percentage of the population, how can they be trusted to manage everything else?

And a "limited budget" of only $160+ billion dollars.

Give me a break. The problem is that it is a government bureaucracy, where most of the people are more interested in justifying their own jobs then anything else. Hell, they can not even be bothered to respond to multiple requests from both a servicemember and a recruiter for a simple DD-214 and medical records without getting a congressman involved.

One of my major reasons for going back in the military was so that I would get away from the VA and back into the military where I know the medical system worked.
 
Deuce said:
We have always rationed health care in this country.


You guys throw around the phrase "taking over" in so many contexts that it has lost meaning.
Click to expand...

i have never had rationed care. i walk in pay my co pay walk out.
wife just had a baby no care was rationed
i have had minor surgeries no care was rationed.

actually it does have meaing you just don't like it because it is what you support which is total government control.
 
ludin said:
i have never had rationed care. i walk in pay my co pay walk out.
wife just had a baby no care was rationed
i have had minor surgeries no care was rationed.

actually it does have meaing you just don't like it because it is what you support which is total government control.
Click to expand...

And the Government loves to ration things.
 
Will republicans push to hire more government employees to process these claims or will they continue to use the deaths of these veterans for political purposes?
 
reinoe said:
Will republicans push to hire more government employees to process these claims or will they continue to use the deaths of these veterans for political purposes?
Click to expand...

Will Democrats continue to let our veterans die?
 
reinoe said:
Will republicans push to hire more government employees to process these claims or will they continue to use the deaths of these veterans for political purposes?
Click to expand...
You mean...like you just did?
 
VanceMack said:
You mean...like you just did?
Click to expand...

Reinoe's looking for this....

s0105150_sc7
 
reinoe said:
Will republicans push to hire more government employees to process these claims or will they continue to use the deaths of these veterans for political purposes?
Click to expand...

The problem is not the number of employees, it is the horrible bureaucracy in the department.

An administrator with the power to reduce a disabled veteran's benefits to 0% without any input from a medical professional, a system that takes over 18 months to do nothing on a request for a form, but a Congressman gets it done in a week, doctors who are incompetent and only work there because they can not get work elsewhere, the list just goes on and on and on.

Very few problems can be solved by throwing money at them, and this is a perfect example. Until the system actually works for the veterans it is supposed to help instead of supporting the people who hold the jobs, it will continue to be broken.
 
ludin said:
i have never had rationed care. i walk in pay my co pay walk out.
wife just had a baby no care was rationed
i have had minor surgeries no care was rationed.

actually it does have meaing you just don't like it because it is what you support which is total government control.
Click to expand...

:roll:

Practitioners in most nations with UHC are private citizens, not government employees. There's no bureaucrat deciding what care you get. Your doctor decides that. When you're willing to talk about UHC like an adult, let me know.
 
American said:
Will Democrats continue to let our veterans die?
Click to expand...

Republicans are the ones slashing budgets. Why do you vote for the people who are literally murdering veterans in their sleep?
 
Deuce said:
Republicans are the ones slashing budgets. Why do you vote for the people who are literally murdering veterans in their sleep?
Click to expand...

Why do you vote for people who consider soldiers baby-killers, and returning veterans as national security threats.
 
Deuce said:
:roll:

Practitioners in most nations with UHC are private citizens, not government employees. There's no bureaucrat deciding what care you get. Your doctor decides that. When you're willing to talk about UHC like an adult, let me know.
Click to expand...

Actually you would be wrong. you see your UHC only covers what the government says it covers. IE 5-7 years ago you couldn't get herceptin in european areas through their UHC. the government deemed it to expensive.

The only way that the government can control costs in a UHC is by limiting and or not paying the full amount on certain procedures and medicine's.
Which is why most people that have UHC also have a private insurance plan to cover what the government plan doesn't.

so not only do you have to pay higher taxes for the UHC you have to pay even more for the private plan.

you seem to view UHC through rose color glasses and ignore the major issues that it has that people don't want to talk about. They think it is free healthcare and it isn't.
They think you can just walk in get whatever it is you want and walk out, and you can't.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom