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A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list [W:36]

What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?

For what it's worth, satisfaction with VA care is 90% plus on surveys of veteran patients. Hospital accreditation boards rank VA hospital care as among the best next to private hospitals, the occasional dissatified veteran notwithstanding.

Despite that, or because of it, the waiting times are long. Offer free or cheap care and the demand is going to be high.
 
This article isn't a commentary on the VA healthcare system in it's entirely.

It deals with the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, and the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system only.

More specifically, since hospital care is at issue, it deals specifically with the Carl T. Hayden Veterans Affairs Medical Center - the only hospital in the Phoenix system.

You (not just you - pretty much every "you" weighing in on this topic) are extrapolating a local issue out to be a national problem - and it isn't.

For the most part, and for the overwhelming majority of veterans, the VA system provides awesome care.

What you're doing is tantamount to reading an article about a single private hospital, that's part of a larger private hospital network, being sued for malpractice and jumping to the conclusion that "this is what you get when you opt for private healthcare".

And make no mistake, private hospitals are sued for malpractice every single day.

What the hell planet are you from? I was wounded several times in the Vietnam War (Lima Company Rangers, 75th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division) and I've been cursed for decades in having to deal with this monstrous corrupt bureaucracy in at least four different states. Don't tell me, or any other wounded combat veteran, that this is a problem exclusive to Phoenix. It isn't. It cuts a broad swath across the entire network. The VA is the world's largest government bureaucracy. This is your federal government busy at work murdering veterans. They've been doing it for decades. Do you like what you see?

The OP is about the Carl Hayden VA Hospital in Phoenix. The VA system is like swiss cheese, it has huge holes in it. There are some good hospitals. Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years. In fact, I moved my VA primary from Phoenix to Tucson. I also have private insurance and use that for almost everything. I cannot say enough good things about the Tucson VA.

When I was living in Florida I discovered that Atlanta was excellent in handling VA records so I left it that way and it remains that way today.

What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail. Sadly the people who were so supportive of American military going off to war all over the planet are not holding rallies and putting ribbons on their cars to support veterans when vets are treated like crap in places like Phoenix VA. Where are all those "true patriots" back home when you need them?


Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

~ Rudyard Kipling


 
Again, you fail to acknowledge that some things aren't possible.

The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington. That practice would be no different from, let's say a company's filing false financial statements either to attract investment or to avoid paying taxes. The facility's fraud denied policy makers the dependable and timely information that might have led to corrective measures that could have reduced the wait periods. The extended waits that were hidden by the fraud had adverse medical consequences.
 
I did exactly that when I waited 7 months for Dad's pension to Mom to pay her bills when he died.
The field officer knew the right phone number and we received our booklet in a few weeks.
I didn't mind picking up the tab since the Military had given them a life.
People have to all the time, I did exactly that.
In the military they teach you to 'be your own advocate' - because they know their system sucks.
Veterans shouldn't have to move heaven and earth just to go to a doctor for a heart condition.
There seems to be quite a discussion going on lately about the "entitlement" some Veteran's families feel they should have.
We were always grateful for what Uncle Sugar gave us.

If 50% of Defense is going to Pensions and the VA, something has to give as Rep. Paul Ryan tried to accomplish last December.
Asking my Mother to take 2% COLA versus 3% is not too much for me too handle.
How much COLA is enough for the fat-cat Officer Millionaires ?
 
The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington.
The facility is in Red-State Arizona, home of the most ardent Neo-Con in the Senate, John McCain.
Why aren't questions being directed towards him?
I doubt if this would have gone on if Barry Goldwater was still Senator.
I've heard quite enough politicization of the Armed Forces VA in this thread linked to ACA as I care to stand .
 
I did exactly that when I waited 7 months for Dad's pension to Mom to pay her bills when he died.
The field officer knew the right phone number and we received our booklet in a few weeks.
I didn't mind picking up the tab since the Military had given them a life.

There seems to be quite a discussion going on lately about the "entitlement" some Veteran's families feel they should have.
We were always grateful for what Uncle Sugar gave us.

If 50% of Defense is going to Pensions and the VA, something has to give as Rep. Paul Ryan tried to accomplish last December.
Asking my Mother to take 2% COLA versus 3% is not too much for me too handle.
How much COLA is enough for the fat-cat Officer Millionaires ?

most of the time it's not even 2%. It usually is 1.6%.
 
While debate and discussion regarding the short comings of VA hospitals is entirely reasonable, I find it odd that the discussion was prompted by a conspiracy theory put forth by one doctor and a handful of "high level sources" (none of which are identified).
 
This is the same thing happening across the Nation in ALL pensions facing disaster.
Here in Illinois, the Teacher's Union and Pension fund which I am in is foolishly fighting in Cout a recent agreement to deal with the Pension,
similar to what other states have done and what Ryan tried to do.
When public pension payments are blowing a hole in the budget for education and other needed items, something has to give.
most of the time it's not even 2%. It usually is 1.6%.
On the other side, the GOP in IL opposed the pension agreement because it didn't go far enough, meaning they support nothing, just as in DC.
When Ryan came up with his plan last December, selfish Neo-Cons in his own party deep-sixed the plan.
Ryan and Cantor are coming after ALL Federal Pensions/Bennies.
The sooner they restructure the whole system, the better for today's current soldiers and public pensioneers .
 
What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail.

I totally agree with that.

I don't mean to give the impression that I think the VA (or by extension the .gov) is infallible in any respect.

I've had my issues with the VA, just not in relation to healthcare.

I can easily accept that others have.

If some part of the VA system is broken then I support fixing it 110%.

If VA officials, managers, or rank-and-file employees are failing our brothers then they need to be held accountable.

If that means firing, so be it.

If that means federal prison, so be it.

All I'm opposed to is this outrageous idea that, because the federal government is involved in something, it is of logical necessity bound to fail; or the obverse of that, which is that because the private sector is involved in something it is of logical necessity somehow more likely to succeed.

CLEARLY neither of those assertions is accurate.

Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years.

This is the first I'm hearing about it but I'll take your word for it that this is an ongoing problem.

But it isn't, at its core, all that different a problem than what is experienced as a result of ineffective/inefficient/negligent leadership of civilian institutions.

Executives and managers everywhere are interested in saving $2 (by cutting whatever corners are necessary) in order that they'll see and additional $1 in their bonus.

Sometimes those corners are cut ethically, sometimes they're cut unethically.

These are HUMAN problems - not government vs. civilian problems.

Here's a quite from an article discussing this issue (I don't know if it's the article posted in the OP):

Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the VA system in Phoenix. The veteran doctor told CNN in an exclusive interview that the Phoenix VA works off two lists for patient appointments:

There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.

"The scheme was deliberately put in place to avoid the VA's own internal rules," said Foote in Phoenix.

So in this case the government, Big Daddy VA, actually has policies in place to prevent just this sort of thing from happening.

The problem was/is that unethical managers way down the the VA pecking order deliberately circumvented the rules that the government has put in place in order to appear more effective and efficient than they actually are.

How often do we hear of such things happening in private industry?

General Motors is being sued, as we speak, for failing to recall 2.5 million vehicles despite the company's and executives' knowledge that the vehicles were built using defective ignitions switches (ie. ignition switches that did not meet government standards).

13 people are dead as a result of those switches and millions more have lost millions of dollars in aggregate resale value as a result.

But we don't hear our friends on the far right screeching that capitalism and private business ownership are to blame.

No.

When it's a private business they'll place blame where it belongs: with the company or individual responsible for the problem.

But when it's the VA system that experiences a VERY similar type of problem the absolute VERY first thing they do is engage their mouths before their brains.

I'm sorry to hear that the VA system in your neck of the woods is sucking.

I hope you'll see whatever problems you're experiencing corrected very soon.
 
The OP is about the Carl Hayden VA Hospital in Phoenix. The VA system is like swiss cheese, it has huge holes in it. There are some good hospitals. Many of us have known about the Phoenix VA and have been complaining to Congressional representatives for years. In fact, I moved my VA primary from Phoenix to Tucson. I also have private insurance and use that for almost everything. I cannot say enough good things about the Tucson VA.

When I was living in Florida I discovered that Atlanta was excellent in handling VA records so I left it that way and it remains that way today.

What has been happening in Phoenix is inexcusable. Guilty VA administrators should go to jail. Sadly the people who were so supportive of American military going off to war all over the planet are not holding rallies and putting ribbons on their cars to support veterans when vets are treated like crap in places like Phoenix VA. Where are all those "true patriots" back home when you need them?
[/B]

It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.
 
It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.

That's nothing new. Same thing happens with BRAC. The most powerful political figures get to keep their bases. The rest? Their bases are closed.
 
It's a simple equation. If you live in a district that is perceived by either party as possessing significant political influence (money & votes), then you get the best VA facilities.

I have heard - don't know - that San Diego, Jackson, MS and Minneapolis VAs are very good. As I mentioned earlier Tucson has been outstanding in my experience.
 
Absolutely - what could be better managed than a federal gov't program? ;)

Where no one in power is held accountable because they claim ignorance! This country's "leadership" is hilarious at this point. Time to go back to homesteading. Darwinism at its finest.
 
The issue is not what is or is not possible. The issue is a facility's deliberately providing false information to Washington. That practice would be no different from, let's say a company's filing false financial statements either to attract investment or to avoid paying taxes. The facility's fraud denied policy makers the dependable and timely information that might have led to corrective measures that could have reduced the wait periods. The extended waits that were hidden by the fraud had adverse medical consequences.

It doesn't matter what figures Washington got. It would not have made any difference.

This is the inevitable result of Washington demanding that wait times be shortened without providing the resources needed to do it.

Having to wait months for an appointment is SOP.
 
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And again, once the administrators have told the central office that their funding isn't adequate and after central office has told them that there isn't any more money then what are the administrators supposed to do?

...There is no virtue in looking for scapegoats. It might make you feel good to punish officials who couldn't help it, but it is by no means just.

From the CNN story:

The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources...

Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it.


In other words, this is not an unavoidable situation that confronted hapless managers.

1. Designing a system to mislead the federal government isn't a necessity. It's a matter of choice. Nothing compelled the managers at the Phoenix facility to provide misleading information to the federal government.

2. All managers have a fiduciary responsibility to make a good faith effort to provide accurate information. Unintentional errors are one thing. Deliberate deception is another. The Phoenix management, specifically those who were engaged in the fraudulent reporting, could have provided the actual data and such explanation as they felt were necessary. They chose to mislead their superiors in Washington. In turn, opportunities to identify a problem and provide a response to it were missed. Patients suffered the consequences. Those consequences included fatalities.

3. Holding the individuals who designed the fraudulent reporting system, provided the fraudulent data to the federal government, and otherwise had knowledge of the fraud but tolerated it, accountable for their actions and the consequences of the fraud is just. Justice connects actions with accountability.

I fully realize that from a perspective in which responsibility is viewed as collective in nature, not individual, the principle of holding individuals legally accountable for their actions could be problematic. From that perspective, such legal accountability could well seem unfair or heavy-handed, as collective responsibility seeks to spread the blame and thereby dilute personal responsibility. However, that philosophical debate is beyond the scope of this thread. Far more importantly, notions of collective responsibility are not relevant to the principles at the heart of the U.S. legal system and it's those principles that will guide the investigations that will be launched in coming days and any criminal proceedings that could follow.
 
I have heard - don't know - that San Diego, Jackson, MS and Minneapolis VAs are very good. As I mentioned earlier Tucson has been outstanding in my experience.

Just look for lots of retirees who can afford very upscale homes, who live on the beach, and who golf at world-class local facilities. I promise the local VA clinic will be world-class as well. I'm thinking of Bandon, Oregon as I scribble this.
 
It doesn't matter what figures Washington got. It would not have made any difference.

This is the inevitable result of Washington demanding that wait times be shortened without providing the resources needed to do it.

Having to wait months for an appointment is SOP.

One can't make that assumption. When confronted with the Walter Reed outpatient scandal, then Secretary of Defense Gates moved decisively to address the matter. Accurate information on long waits could have reinforced arguments for added resources (financial, human, etc.) or reprioritization of existing resources. Instead, false information that created a perception of a satisfactory (relative to federal requirements) situation was presented.
 
Just look for lots of retirees who can afford very upscale homes, who live on the beach, and who golf at world-class local facilities. I promise the local VA clinic will be world-class as well. I'm thinking of Bandon, Oregon as I scribble this.

You know, that could very well be a consideration in terms of the care I've received from the VA.

I've used the Northport VAMC (Northport, NY) and the Lyons and Orange NJ facilities.

Neither of them are located dead in the middle of affluent towns (in fact Orange is something of a dump) but they're both surrounded by fairly affluent areas.
 
From CNN:
A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list - CNN.com

IMO, this is an outrageous and unconscionable crime. The management of this system and al others who participated in the scheme should be held accountable for the 40 deaths. Any managers who are members of the Military, should be dishonorably discharged in addition to being held criminally responsible. No person, much less veterans who put their lives at risk for the nation, ever deserved to be treated in such a callous fashion.

First of all, let me say this loud and clear in case nobody else has:

The military has nothing to do with the Veterans Administration!

The VA is a completely separate cabinet level department. The military does not run it, the military does not work in it, the military has nothing to do with it, other then being the source of those they take care of.

Period.

And why are you shocked? The VA is a perfect example of Government Medical Care at it's finest. It has been an abortion for 30 years, and will continue to be an abortion 30 years from now. Ask pretty much any Veteran, and we can tell you horror stories about the VA.

Point in fact, my wife did her residency at a VA hospital. She has told me for over 20 years that she would never let me be put into one.
 
Horrible....Isn't this sort of what single payer is?

J-Mac... let's privatize services & benefits given to the military? Yes?
 
You know, that could very well be a consideration in terms of the care I've received from the VA.

I've used the Northport VAMC (Northport, NY) and the Lyons and Orange NJ facilities.

Neither of them are located dead in the middle of affluent towns (in fact Orange is something of a dump) but they're both surrounded by fairly affluent areas.

Lyons is a very affluent enclave. I grew up right near there and know the VA facility well. I had a relative who lived there in the 1980s. It looks almost like a college campus.

Orange is a cesspool but I never saw their VA facility.
 
Lyons is a very affluent enclave. I grew up right near there and know the VA facility well. I had a relative who lived there in the 1980s. It looks almost like a college campus.

Orange is a cesspool but I never saw their VA facility.

I didn't realize Lyons was money, but I guess it stands to reason that it is. I know Bridgewater and Morristown and several other towns in the area (or areas of other towns in the area) are.

I grew up in Old Bridge, 15 or 20 miles to the Southeast.

Learn something new every day I guess.
 
It is interesting that Todays Republicans seem so fixated on healthcare (ACA, VA, Costs..etc..) yet have never offered a solution.
 
I didn't realize Lyons was money, but I guess it stands to reason that it is. I know Bridgewater and Morristown and several other towns in the area (or areas of other towns in the area) are.

I grew up in Old Bridge, 15 or 20 miles to the Southeast.

Learn something new every day I guess.

I know Old Bridge well.

Lyons is right outside of Bernardsville, and hard on the Basking Ridge border. Both extremely wealthy towns. It probably makes that VA hospital better than the others.
 
Oh no.:popcorn2:
It is interesting that Todays Republicans seem so fixated on healthcare (ACA, VA, Costs..etc..) yet have never offered a solution.
 
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