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High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

haymarket said:
The key here is ALL admissions based only on academic merit. In the past, some people who have a particular grudge against race based admissions find elaborate ways to excuse or justify other type of preferences. If academic merit is going to be the sole ticket in - lets stick to that for everyone at all colleges.
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Universities are perfectly free to extend preferences based on any number of considerations: athletic ability, parents' affiliation with the university, place of residence, artistic ability, etc. they cannot, however, extend preference on the basis of race because that is prohibited by the Constitution.:peace
 
Cardinal said:
You are very very VERY confused about who's saying what in this thread. Perhaps you've got me confused with someone else? My suggestion to you: read gooder.
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I don't know, was this not you?

Originally Posted by Cardinal
No one's under any obligation to be overt about their racism. So if a college picks a white student over a black student for racist reasons, and both students are equally qualified, how do you prove it?
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If you can't prove it, how do you know it's happening at all? Where is your evidence that it's happening? You're the one claiming that it's happening.
 
Gipper said:
Yeah, uh, no. Affirmative Action prevents them from accepting on merit.

And it creates tokens because people know who belong there and who are there by quota.
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That's not true. I remember Pat Buchanan being called on that once. He admitted that AA wasn't what you suggest, but said we had to change it because so many believed it. The truth didn't matter.

Again, no law requires quotas, or tokens, or percentages, or anyone not qualified. Those lawsuits were able to be filed, and were won because of AA. Without AA, schools could discriminate due to race and merit, whatever that is defined as, wouldn't matter at all.
 
Boo Radley said:
That's not true. I remember Pat Buchanan being called on that once. He admitted that AA wasn't what you suggest, but said we had to change it because so many believed it. The truth didn't matter.

Again, no law requires quotas, or tokens, or percentages, or anyone not qualified. Those lawsuits were able to be filed, and were won because of AA. Without AA, schools could discriminate due to race and merit, whatever that is defined as, wouldn't matter at all.
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Hmmm. You'll have to elaborate that point. The decision seems plain on its face to eliminate racial consideration.:peace
 
Boo Radley said:
That's not true. I remember Pat Buchanan being called on that once. He admitted that AA wasn't what you suggest, but said we had to change it because so many believed it. The truth didn't matter.

Again, no law requires quotas, or tokens, or percentages, or anyone not qualified. Those lawsuits were able to be filed, and were won because of AA. Without AA, schools could discriminate due to race and merit, whatever that is defined as, wouldn't matter at all.
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So you agree that it was a fair decision? :confused:

Greetings, Boo Radley. :2wave:
 
Jack Hays said:
Hmmm. You'll have to elaborate that point. The decision seems plain on its face to eliminate racial consideration.:peace
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By the school. Not that they changed a law or that AA called for it.
 
Jack Hays said:
Then this SCOTUS decision is in accord with your view.
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I'm fine with the decision for the reasons the justices mention--people can restrict AA by constitutional provision.
 
Boo Radley said:
That's not true. I remember Pat Buchanan being called on that once. He admitted that AA wasn't what you suggest, but said we had to change it because so many believed it. The truth didn't matter.

Again, no law requires quotas, or tokens, or percentages, or anyone not qualified. Those lawsuits were able to be filed, and were won because of AA. Without AA, schools could discriminate due to race and merit, whatever that is defined as, wouldn't matter at all.
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There may be nothing "official", but that's not to say that it doesn't happen. It feeds into public perception of "fairness". If merit was the only criterion, this legislation wouldn't exist. However, it exists because it has become accepted fact that blacks cannot compete on level ground. Hence...here you go. It's feel-good legislation. That's it.
 
Cephus said:
I don't know, was this not you?



If you can't prove it, how do you know it's happening at all? Where is your evidence that it's happening? You're the one claiming that it's happening.
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Oh, god, your reading comprehension is nonexistent.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Not at all. What I'm talking about is showing that race is not used as an admission factor.
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I don't see how that follows what I said. You mentioned pointing out a pattern of white students chosen. How do you know when a pattern has taken shape? What ratio of white to black students does there have to be for such a pattern to form?
 
Jack Hays said:
Your only problem is the U.S. Constitution. Preference based on race is unconstitutional. Not all preferences are. :peace
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I get your point but that never was and is not now my argument. I am not basing this on the Constitution. I am basing it on the simple principle that the best and brightest should be admitted.
 
Jack Hays said:
Fair enough. The school's consideration of race was an attempt to bring affirmative action in the back door.:peace
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Not really, they seek diversity. The point is no law mandates that they do this. Such is not affirmative action as subscribed by law.
 
haymarket said:
I get your point but that never was and is not now my argument. I am not basing this on the Constitution. I am basing it on the simple principle that the best and brightest should be admitted.
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Note: I didn't ready 19 pages..

If it's best and brightest why has AA been the fact that decides? Be it Governmental jobs or college?
 
Gipper said:
There may be nothing "official", but that's not to say that it doesn't happen. It feeds into public perception of "fairness". If merit was the only criterion, this legislation wouldn't exist. However, it exists because it has become accepted fact that blacks cannot compete on level ground. Hence...here you go. It's feel-good legislation. That's it.
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Yes, Robby is against the law. But we don't say we need to abolish anti robbery laws. In essence, that's what happens with these discussions. Instead of recognizing the school violated the law, people criticize the law because they broke it. And somehow coming to the conclusion absent the law they broke, it wouldn't happen. The schools are not encouraged to do this by law or government, but by what they see as a need for diversity.

It should also be noted that they are largely not admitting unqualified applicants. You would find if you looked between applicants of the same race, say white, a white male with lower test test scores, lower GPAs got in over whites with higher GPAs and higher test scores. They mean less than many think.
 
1750Texan said:
Or a legacy.
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years ago I was sitting in the Morse (one of the 12 residential colleges) at Yale with the late great Robert Dahl-maybe the preeminent Political Science Professor in history. Several of us seniors were discussing Yale admissions. several of us were "legacies" but we all were soon to graduate in the top quarter of our class. However, the discussion turned to some legacies who had poor grades. One senior wanted to ban legacy admissions. He figured Dahl-an openly leftwinger would agree. he did not. he asked the fellow why he or Doug Yates or Bill Foltz (three top professors in his department) worked at yale rather than say for the Rand Corporation. Legacies he said. The money alumni gave Yale was the reason why he had a chaired professorship. why kids whose families could't pay the freight could afford to go to Yale or Harvard or Amherst or Cornell. Get rid of those and private schools like yale would have to use ability to pay far more in its admissions. now, Yale doesn't take that into account. You get in, it makes sure you can afford the place
 
calamity said:
Sad we can't have a decent educational system like Germany, Japan or the Netherlands. In the USA, whether or not you go to U of M's engineering or law school depends a lot on in which zip code you were born and raised. If you went to public school in Waterford or the other well to do sections of Oakland County, you stand a 1000x better chance of going to the state's top school than if you're from Detroit or even Pontiac.
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Lol !!

Really ? Its the " educational systems" fault thaf we have schools districts like Detroit's, and Atlanta's and LA's ?

Bull s*** !

Maybe we can throw more money at the problem, while ignoring the fact that standards have been lowered to the point where inner city schools are turning out graduates who are functionally illiterate.

Lowered because its easier and more politically correct to lie and pretend than it is to address the REAL problem.

Inner city schools fail because inner city cultures have been corrupted.

High levels of perpetual dependence and allot of single mothers and baby's daddies

No amount of European education standards are going to change that .
 
Fenton said:
Lol !!

Really ? Its the " educational systems" fault thaf we have schools districts like Detroit's, and Atlanta's and LA's ?

Bull s*** !

Maybe we can throw more money at the problem, while ignoring the fact that standards have been lowered to the point where inner city schools are turning out graduates who are functionally illiterate.

Lowered because its easier and more politically correct to lie and pretend than it is to address the REAL problem.

Inner city schools fail because inner city cultures have been corrupted.

High levels of perpetual dependence and allot of single mothers and baby's daddies

No amount of European education standards are going to change that .
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Cincinnati was home to many poor Jewish families after the war. Most of them are no longer poor. Their kids went to Walnut Hills HS (a magnet public school -ranked in the top ten nationally back then-still in the top 100 and #1 in Ohio) made top grades, went to top universities and came back doctors and lawyers. I grew up with many of the children of these people and I never ever heard of a Jewish kid being ridiculed by his friends for getting top grades or a seat at Columbia or Cornell

The smartest black kid in my HS class (sadly he died of AIDS about 23 years ago) came from a working class background. Unlike most of the other black kids he was neither the son of parents who had benefitted from affirmative action and had good government or "quota" jobs at places like P&G nor was he an athlete. He was into drama and theater and (only his close friends knew this) gay. he didn't care much about sports-Shakespeare was his thing. and I know he caught all sorts of crap from the guys in his neighborhood for getting a scholarship to the wealthy private school we attended and for being interested in artistic things, not basketball. and he got grief when he got an academic scholarship to Williams. while his Jewish friends got parties and gifts for acceptances into such schools and often money from their parents for making A grades, he was ridiculed and harassed: at least his parents were strong enough to support him in his choices.

for kids with less "balls" than this guy had, I can see why its tough. one culture admires and praises academic success, another calls it "acting white" or as my friend D was called-BEING AN "UNCLE TOM"
 
Cardinal said:
I don't see how that follows what I said. You mentioned pointing out a pattern of white students chosen. How do you know when a pattern has taken shape? What ratio of white to black students does there have to be for such a pattern to form?
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No, I said compare students with equal qualifications and see whether there are more black students or more white students with those qualifications given admission. If so, then there is racial bias. If not, then not.
 
austrianecon said:
Note: I didn't ready 19 pages..

If it's best and brightest why has AA been the fact that decides? Be it Governmental jobs or college?
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And before that, it was no blacks need apply. Now, AA is finally had its day, and we can finally have fairness in admissions and hiring with race not being a factor either way.
 
jmotivator said:
High court upholds Mich. affirmative action ban | The Detroit News

"The Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld Michigan’s ban on using race as a factor in college admissions.

The justices said in a 6-2 ruling that Michigan voters had the right to change their state constitution in 2006 to prohibit public colleges and universities from taking account of race in admissions decisions. The justices said a lower federal court was wrong to set aside the change as discriminatory."

Students of all races can now know that they got in to Michigan schools on their merit.
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If the effect of this is the same as it was in California, this will actually be good for minorities.
 
cpwill said:
If the effect of this is the same as it was in California, this will actually be good for minorities.
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yeah, they will end up in schools where they are competitive.

I recall a study about law schools. there was a correlation between passing the bar and how one did in LS. a black guy at say Cornell where he was 4-5 deviations lower in terms of scores than his white and asian counterparts, was often likely to be at the very bottom of his class but if he went to say Buffalo or New York Law he'd be in the middle of his class. those at the bottom of top law schools were less likely to pass the bar than equally intelligent students in the middle of their class at lower rated schools
 
Fenton said:
Lol !!

Really ? Its the " educational systems" fault thaf we have schools districts like Detroit's, and Atlanta's and LA's ?

Bull s*** !

Maybe we can throw more money at the problem, while ignoring the fact that standards have been lowered to the point where inner city schools are turning out graduates who are functionally illiterate.

Lowered because its easier and more politically correct to lie and pretend than it is to address the REAL problem.

Inner city schools fail because inner city cultures have been corrupted.

High levels of perpetual dependence and allot of single mothers and baby's daddies

No amount of European education standards are going to change that .
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All the more reason to give kids who excel in that culture a break over some white kid who is simply marginal after growing up in an environment much more conductive to education. A B-student who grew up in Waterford Twp with the same or slightly higher SAT scores than an inner-city A-student from somewhere along Six Mile Road should be overlooked, IMO.
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah, they will end up in schools where they are competitive.

I recall a study about law schools. there was a correlation between passing the bar and how one did in LS. a black guy at say Cornell where he was 4-5 deviations lower in terms of scores than his white and asian counterparts, was often likely to be at the very bottom of his class but if he went to say Buffalo or New York Law he'd be in the middle of his class. those at the bottom of top law schools were less likely to pass the bar than equally intelligent students in the middle of their class at lower rated schools
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Why that's discrimination!
 
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