The US is an oligarchy, study concludes[W:192]

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

What definition did I make up?

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Were we ever a democracy? I'm not certain, but it does seem that there was a time when the middle class fairly well prospered in this country.

Does a prosperous and large middle class mean that a democracy is present? I'm not certain.

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You seem to be implying that prosperity has something to do with defining a democracy.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

jonny5 said:

You seem to be implying that prosperity has something to do with defining a democracy.

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Did you notice the use of questionmarks at the end of 2 of my sentences? Do you know the meaning of "I'm not certain"?

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

MadLib said:

I feel like we are more of a flawed democracy, where visibility and influence are more important than simple voting, than an oligarchy or plutocracy. Interest groups that mobilize in favor of their goals (civil rights, LGBT, etc.) tend to achieve these goals more rapidly than those that do not. Unfortunately, working-class Americans have rarely if ever been effectively mobilized as an interest group, and so the goals of the wealthy/upper middle-class prevail.

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What's happening is that the politicians in power decide what the issues will be, not the electorate.

In the last Presidential election they managed to make the issue "A War on Women" and contraceptives, plus the usual racism charges against their opponents. Things that directly effect American lives, such as debt and spending, didn't get much play in the MSM.

We can see that the stage is being set for more trivialities being the issue in November while crony capitalism, the waste of trillions, the scandals from inside the government, will not grab the public attention. You may as well have 60% of the electorate stoned if the election issues are going to be fought over something like contraceptives.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate, with our 2 party system, for example, the voter has a choice between a Clinton or a Bush. Is that really a choice?

I happen to always vote 3rd party, just to offer my objection, but most folks don't.

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The American people seem to be voting for everything except the long term good of their country, and those who advocate government responsibility will be vilified by those in power and their counterparts in the MSM.. I can't see this changing any time soon.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

Did you notice the use of questionmarks at the end of 2 of my sentences? Do you know the meaning of "I'm not certain"?

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Did you notice the one in my post? If you disagreed with my statement, then respond with your own. Dont just keep asking rhetorical questions. What does prosperity have anything to do with whether the US is a democracy?

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Mr. Invisible said:

Fascism consistently has a nationalistic, racial element to it in which one group of people is seen as superior to all the rest and that becomes enshrined into the legal system.

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America is most certainly nationalistic. Have you not been paying attention?

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:

A 40 hour job on minimum wage is already not enough to feed oneself. Or rather, it isn't enough to pay one's rent.

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Then those people should stop trying to do it. Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage. Anyone who tries to live on it is a moron.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Soupnazi630 said:

The quote says nothing about said consequences.

Reducing government to bare minimum is the only way to change the oligarchy and restore a true republic.

That's the consequence inherent in libertarian beliefs. A better place.

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Forgive me while I laugh hysterically.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:

Or remove power from Washington and return it to the States, where the local electorate can keep an eyes on it..

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If the federal electorate can't control Washington, what makes you think the state electorate will do any better at the state level?

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

jonny5 said:

Today, and yes. Do we not have elections? Does our congress not vote on laws? Thats what democracy is.

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No, a democracy is where our elected representatives actually represent the interests of the people who put them in power. Today, we send people to Washington and they're automatically corrupted by the system, such that they do the minimum they have to in order to get re-elected, but beyond that, they're part of the corrupt political machine.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate, with our 2 party system, for example, the voter has a choice between a Clinton or a Bush. Is that really a choice?

I happen to always vote 3rd party, just to offer my objection, but most folks don't.

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Voting third party is no more a choice than voting for Mickey Mouse. The only person who matters is the one who actually wins and people who make protest votes or don't vote at all, they still have to live under the policies of the one who makes it into office.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:

Then those people should stop trying to do it. Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage. Anyone who tries to live on it is a moron.

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And those who are attempting to live on it should, what? Stop living? Magically obtain better employment in a horrible recession? Win the lottery? What? What are these desperate people to do while you sit above them and feel superior?

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:

And those who are attempting to live on it should, what? Stop living? Magically obtain better employment in a horrible recession? Win the lottery? What? What are these desperate people to do while you sit above them and feel superior?

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It's their own fault they put themselves in that situation, that they didn't get an education when they had the opportunity, that they didn't gain valuable work experience and a strong work ethic, that they made bad choices in their lives and now expect the rest of us to pay for their stupidity. It's called personal responsibility. I wouldn't expect you to understand anything about it. You make good decisions first, you earn your way up the ladder first, THEN you try to live on your own.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:

No, a democracy is where our elected representatives actually represent the interests of the people who put them in power. Today, we send people to Washington and they're automatically corrupted by the system, such that they do the minimum they have to in order to get re-elected, but beyond that, they're part of the corrupt political machine.

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No, thats politics. Democracy is simply a tool.

a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

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How those agents choose to exert that power is irrelevant to the definition.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:

If the federal electorate can't control Washington, what makes you think the state electorate will do any better at the state level?

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The idea is to make Washington weaker and make the States stronger. We can already see the problems the Feds are creating across the country.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:

And those who are attempting to live on it should, what? Stop living? Magically obtain better employment in a horrible recession? Win the lottery? What? What are these desperate people to do while you sit above them and feel superior?

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Many people manage to live on minimum wage but this has always meant as a starting point in working your way up the ladder. If it is a permanent job for some then perhaps they just like it there and have no further ambitions. That's fine too.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:

Many people manage to live on minimum wage but this has always meant as a starting point in working your way up the ladder. If it is a permanent job for some then perhaps they just like it there and have no further ambitions. That's fine too.

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More faux-superiority. Struggling people who aren't as fortunate as you must be defective in some way. They're not ambitious enough. Right. Of course that's it. Nobody is poor for reasons beyond their own control.

This is why we cannot make any kind of serious progress in this country. There's large factions that live in a delusion and can't accept the facts of how this country actually is.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:

More faux-superiority. Struggling people who aren't as fortunate as you must be defective in some way. They're not ambitious enough. Right. Of course that's it. Nobody is poor for reasons beyond their own control.

This is why we cannot make any kind of serious progress in this country. There's large factions that live in a delusion and can't accept the facts of how this country actually is.

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He didn't say that. What he did say is the truth that many start out at minimum wage as the foot in the door--the training stipend while they learn the ropes of the business and make themselves profitable to the owner. Because I married a person who got transferred a LOT, I had to start over in many a new town. And many MANY times I was willing to accept minimum wage or close to it. I never stayed there more than a few weeks, however, because I was able to make myself profitable to my employer and demonstrate to him that I was somebody he wanted to keep around as long as possible.

Almost nobody is worth even minimum wage until they learn the ropes and routine of a new job and are able to make themselves profitable for the employer. Why would anybody hire anybody who is going to cost them more than whatever profits that person is able to generate or make possible?

Make the minimum wage too high and the employer won't take a chance on the unproven, unskilled worker.

But in an oligarchy, that permanent political class will do everything it has to do to make sure that unproven, unskilled worker doesn't suffer and thereby that worker will have to vote for them lest he lose his benefits. And there is strong incentive from that permanent political class to raise the minimum wage and thereby make a much larger segment of society dependent on that permanent political class and thereby ensure it will exist in perpetuity.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Mr.Nick said:

Obama isn't a socialist by definition (not that Obama wouldn't employ the necessary tactics for socialism if he could), however Obama's social and economic policies outcomes mimics the outcome of socialism....

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From the same inconsistent poster who brought you:

Mr.Nick said:

Obama is a Stalin cloaked in a US flag.

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Mr.Nick said:

Yes Obama believes in central control of the economy

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Mr.Nick said:

The progressive elite wanted a gay, woman or black president so that said president could push socialist policies

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Mr.Nick said:

- Obama is a socialist -

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Mr.Nick said:

No difference really...

I would label Obama an authoritarian pseudo-socialist/capitalist fascist...

Do I believe Obama is a Marxist? yes

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Obama isn't a socialist by definition... he's just a fascist, socialist, Marxist and capitalist - AT THE SAME TIME.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:

Voting third party is no more a choice than voting for Mickey Mouse. The only person who matters is the one who actually wins and people who make protest votes or don't vote at all, they still have to live under the policies of the one who makes it into office.

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I cannot disagree with you, not for one second.

For me, throwing away my vote on a third party candidate accomplishes 2 things--it formally registers my objection, and it allows me to wake up the next morning with a clear conscience.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

I cannot disagree with you, not for one second.

For me, throwing away my vote on a third party candidate accomplishes 2 things--it formally registers my objection, and it allows me to wake up the next morning with a clear conscience.

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But what is more important? Registering our objection and feeling righteous? Or actually doing something to make a difference? If I think something is important enough, changing it, stopping it, saving it, promoting it, or whatever needs to happen must be the imperative and not just feeling superior that I did something knowing that it would make no difference whatsoever.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

AlbqOwl said:

But what is more important? Registering our objection and feeling righteous? Or actually doing something to make a difference? If I think something is important enough, changing it, stopping it, saving it, promoting it, or whatever needs to happen must be the imperative and not just feeling superior that I did something knowing that it would make no difference whatsoever.

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What do you suggest I do? Vote for a Repub or a Dem?

I didn't say I feel superior, I said my conscience was clear. There is a difference you know.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:

The idea is to make Washington weaker and make the States stronger. We can already see the problems the Feds are creating across the country.

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Why? I don't trust the states any more than I do Washington, in fact, I trust them even less. I trust individual counties, cities and towns even less. When you get down to smaller groups of people with the same mindset, you tend to get more and more abuse.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

I cannot disagree with you, not for one second.

For me, throwing away my vote on a third party candidate accomplishes 2 things--it formally registers my objection, and it allows me to wake up the next morning with a clear conscience.

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Then go ahead. Your own party has never gotten to the mythical 5% margin and never will. You'll always live under either Democrat or Republican rule. If that makes you feel good about yourself, knock yourself out.

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Henry David said:

What do you suggest I do? Vote for a Repub or a Dem?

I didn't say I feel superior, I said my conscience was clear. There is a difference you know.

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Yes, technically there is a difference. But when we express to others that we have a clear conscience, the implication is that if they did something different than we did, they shouldn't have a clear conscience and we are superior in that regard. I am no different. When I do what I believe to be the right thing, and go out of my way to announce that I did the right thing, I am stating loud and clear that my motives and intentions are commendable; i.e. superior to those who don't share them. There is no shame in that. It is the American way so to speak.

(It isn't saying that I am superior, but just that my choice was superior to the opposing choice.)

Seriously, my personal ideology is that if something does not produce the intended results--in fact if we KNOW or don't CARE whether it produces intended results--then there is no nobility or merit in doing it at all. And certainly it is foolish to do it just to have a 'clear conscience'. If anything it should produce a state of guilt within us, not smugness. And certainly, our ethics should not produce a clear conscience when we do something that we KNOW or don't CARE whether it produces intended results.

When it comes to our vote, we should all be doing our damndest to discern who the superior candidate will be and get him/her on the ballot. And when it comes time to vote for the best candidate on the ballot, our vote should go to the one who will accomplish the most good, or at least do the least harm and who has a chance to win. So yeah, that sometimes means voting for the Republican or Democrat even though they are far less than what we had hoped for.

To 'throw away' our vote in protest or to make a statement might indeed give us a feeling of accomplishment but we should not have a clear conscience when we do it because we will have failed to make whatever small difference we could. And to vote for the lesser candidate because of reasons other than what is best for all is to create the kinds of oligarchy that are most destructive to this country.

There is no shame in trying and failing. The shame comes in not trying at all.