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Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

The jewish organizations in Ukraine have stated that they are pro-ukraine.
Ukraine Jewish leaders to Putin: No anti-Semitism, please leave - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews



Ukraine Jewish leaders criticize Putin in open letter | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

And many more. So it doesn't matter if a personal jew in eastern ukraine is pro-russian. The people who claim to represent them stated that they're pro-ukrainian and anti-russian.

I explained this in that post. You start with the most easiest groups to silence and then move to the ones who are harder to find.

In the first days of the crisis the Chief Rabbi declared for Russia and warned of a 'pogrom' from elements associated with Svoboda and the Right Sector. This was a salient part of Russia's initial media narrative on the crisis. Regardless there hasn't been any evidence of any particular political activity from Jewish communities in Eastern Ukraine and if they are being specifically targeted it begs serious explanation of anti-semitism isn't a motivator.

The comparison to the Tatars is also a weak one considering the well known vociferous opposition to the Crimean annexation that permeated the Tatar community, it's political organs, and leadership. Not that it justifies any retaliation against them.

Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com
 
In the first days of the crisis the Chief Rabbi declared for Russia and warned of a 'pogrom' from elements associated with Svoboda and the Right Sector. This was a salient part of Russia's initial media narrative on the crisis. Regardless there hasn't been any evidence of any particular political activity from Jewish communities in Eastern Ukraine and if they are being specifically targeted it begs serious explanation of anti-semitism isn't a motivator.

The comparison to the Tatars is also a weak one considering the well known vociferous opposition to the Crimean annexation that permeated the Tatar community, it's political organs, and leadership. Not that it justifies any retaliation against them.

Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

I'm sorry your views aren't valid, only Rainmain05 understands and has a valid point of view. Better try next time. [/sarcasm]
 
Are you ****ing kidding me?!?


Fallen.

There is the difference that a lot of people here don't understand.

The anti-semites like some of the people in the Right Sector are actually anti-semites and they do occasional attacks on jews. It's violence for the sake of violence and it exists. But it's not with an end goal in mind. It's violence of the sake of violence due to hate or whatever.

But in eastern ukraine, now, with the leaflets and everything, it's not about anti-semitism, it's about censorship. the pro-russian separatists are trying to shut people up who have dissenting voices and jewish groups have been pro-ukrainian. It's about censorship, as i said repeatedly.
 
My personal analysis is the only correct one that one can draw from the news you and others posted.

Look. Let me try and explain this in the easiest fashion possible.

A word to describe strong sentiments against tartars would be anti-tartarism. Yes? Now if someone were to come with a news saying "anti-tartarist sentiments are on the rise in Crimea", you'd probably shrug your shoulders and say "Well, someone should do something about that because discrimination is bad". But if a news piece comes with the text "anti-semitic sentiments are on the rise in eastern ukraine", you reaction, conditioned by a number of factors would be "OMG, HOLOCAUST, HOLOCAUST, DO SOMETHING IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN". And that sort of response can be a justified one at times. However. This is not one of those times.

This is one of those times when automatism is bad because it prevents you from understanding the reality of the situation.

If I was in charge of getting rid of dissent in an area, what I'd do is that i'd start with the easiest targets to intimidate that may be the most likely people to cause trouble. And I look around in eastern ukraine and I see a handful of tartars... ok, lets send some people to make sure they shut up because they're afraid. And I see some jews and I know that jewish groups for over a month, have actively voiced pro-ukranian sentiments... so I say lets go shut them up too just in case they may be like the other jews. It's not about anti-semitism because i'm not targetting jews for the jewishness, I'm targetting them because they're the most likely candidates for causing dissenting statements. And I can't have that because it must seem that ALL people in eastern ukraine want to go to Russia or be independent or autonomous or something. But not ukranian. And people who voice a different opinion need to be shut up. It's a very simple case of censorship of the masses. And you start with shutting up the easiest people to shut up and work your way to the more stubborn ones or the ones who are harder to find. Like pro-ukranian ukrainians or pro-ukranian russians.

Everyone who may issue anti-russian sentiments needs to be silenced. there are no special allowances or special measures taken against jews. It just seems that there because people use terms like anti-semitic attacks to automate a response in people. And while it may be beneficial to have people more concerned about what is happening in eastern ukraine and draw attention to the situation, it's doing it by provoking the wrong path. It's putting up the discrimination that jewish people are facing in eastern ukraine as above the discrimination that other people who may/are pro-ukrainian by using a word that has strong connotations. When in fact, it's not about ethnicity, it's about censorship. People who don't fall in line need to shut up and make it seem like all eastern ukraine wants to go to russia.

It's distorting reality. And if we start distorting reality, how can we possbilty understand what is going on there? We can't. So lets be factual about things and then understand what is happening.



No, you don't understand. I understand everything completely and I also understanding that automaton responses and distorting reality is not good in the long run. The holocaust has nothing to do with this.

Read above and try and understand.

Another reality is that Jews have been, and are, historically discriminated against throughout Europe and the Middle East. Tartars not so much.

Naturally red flags will go up when Jews rather than Tartars are mentioned.
 
Well and now that he's brought peace between Israel and the Palestinians, we should be fine. Oh, wait....

The Onion said it best: Man Who Couldn

"Man Who Couldn’t Defeat George W. Bush Attempting To Resolve Israel-Palestine Conflict"
I know, righ....wait...theres 'peace' between Israel and Palestine?
 
In the first days of the crisis the Chief Rabbi declared for Russia and warned of a 'pogrom' from elements associated with Svoboda and the Right Sector. This was a salient part of Russia's initial media narrative on the crisis. Regardless there hasn't been any evidence of any particular political activity from Jewish communities in Eastern Ukraine and if they are being specifically targeted it begs serious explanation of anti-semitism isn't a motivator.

The comparison to the Tatars is also a weak one considering the well known vociferous opposition to the Crimean annexation that permeated the Tatar community, it's political organs, and leadership. Not that it justifies any retaliation against them.

Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Are you being deliberate here? What does what happened in Kyiv have to do with what is happening now...

Do I have to do an ELI5 to you?
Kyiv is here <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Donestsk is here.
Very far away. Very different people with very different goals.

Violence for the sake of violence in one area.
intimidation (under the promise) of violence to cause censorship to quell dissent and shut up loudmouths who don't have the 'correct' opinions.
Right Sector here <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Pro-Russian separatists here
Ukrainian nationalists <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Separatists
How many ways do I have to keep on saying this.
 
I'm sorry your views aren't valid, only Rainmain05 understands and has a valid point of view. Better try next time. [/sarcasm]

you can't speak for me buddy boy. I gave up on you because you clearly lost the capacity to absorb new information. Your brains' plasticity is all gone.

Another reality is that Jews have been, and are, historically discriminated against throughout Europe and the Middle East. Tartars not so much.

Naturally red flags will go up when Jews rather than Tartars are mentioned.

What does that have to do with anything I posted.

Again. Snappy 1-2 liners to make up for comprehensive dialogue. It's like you're begging the world to treat you like children and give you a readers' digest view of the situation. Flash words to substitute for dialogue.
 
Are you being deliberate here? What does what happened in Kyiv have to do with what is happening now...

Do I have to do an ELI5 to you?
Kyiv is here <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Donestsk is here.
Very far away. Very different people with very different goals.

Violence for the sake of violence in one area.
intimidation (under the promise) of violence to cause censorship to quell dissent and shut up loudmouths who don't have the 'correct' opinions.
Right Sector here <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Pro-Russian separatists here
Ukrainian nationalists <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Separatists
How many ways do I have to keep on saying this.

What? Because your refutation of my point centered on alleging that the leadership of the Jewish community had sided with Kiev which would dispose the separatists to see them as a threat. My response was to demonstrate that in the initial days of the crisis this was patently untrue and since then the Jewish community has been largely apolitical due to fears of violence and their diminutive size. Hence undercutting the assumption (which you made) that they are being targeted for their insinuated political opposition as opposed to anti-semitism.
 
What? Because your refutation of my point centered on alleging that the leadership of the Jewish community had sided with Kiev which would dispose the separatists to see them as a threat. My response was to demonstrate that in the initial days of the crisis this was patently untrue and since then the Jewish community has been largely apolitical due to fears of violence and their diminutive size. Hence undercutting the assumption (which you made) that they are being targeted for their insinuated political opposition as opposed to anti-semitism.

That's 2 months ago. in february where the protests were at the all time high in Kyiv and other cities too and the berkrut was starting to shoot people with live ammo and kill protesters, around 100 ukranians died then for what they hoped would be a new start because they want a better country. It was the peak of the protests. That's where you saw on the internet those cool pictures with Fallout New Ukraine and all that.

A lot has changed since then. Crimea happened. And people reacted, as you saw in the news reports I gave you, the jewish community reacted. It said things that didn't lay down well with pro-russian supporters and now, to avoid such a scenario from happening again, they're being intimidated to keep their mouths shut in eastern part of ukraine. And it's not an undercutting assumption. It's what it is.

Again. The point of the campaign is to silence them. If people who go about distributing leaflets are also anti-semitic, that's not something you and I can know unless we take each adn every one of them and interview them. The point is not anti-semitism. The point is censorship.
 
I think it might be time to send a stealth bomber over Moscow, just to keep up foreign relations ala Top Gun:

top_gun_flips_the_bird2.jpg
 
you can't speak for me buddy boy. I gave up on you because you clearly lost the capacity to absorb new information. Your brains' plasticity is all gone.
You have provided no information anyone would want to absorb. According to you, only your view and analysis is valid.
What does that have to do with anything I posted.

Again. Snappy 1-2 liners to make up for comprehensive dialogue. It's like you're begging the world to treat you like children and give you a readers' digest view of the situation. Flash words to substitute for dialogue.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I claimed. Let me ask you, does anyone other than yourself have a valid view of this issue or is everyone else just wrong?
 
That's 2 months ago. in february where the protests were at the all time high in Kyiv and other cities too and the berkrut was starting to shoot people with live ammo and kill protesters, around 100 ukranians died then for what they hoped would be a new start because they want a better country. It was the peak of the protests. That's where you saw on the internet those cool pictures with Fallout New Ukraine and all that.

A lot has changed since then. Crimea happened. And people reacted, as you saw in the news reports I gave you, the jewish community reacted. It said things that didn't lay down well with pro-russian supporters and now, to avoid such a scenario from happening again, they're being intimidated to keep their mouths shut in eastern part of ukraine. And it's not an undercutting assumption. It's what it is.

Again. The point of the campaign is to silence them. If people who go about distributing leaflets are also anti-semitic, that's not something you and I can know unless we take each adn every one of them and interview them. The point is not anti-semitism. The point is censorship.

Right and I presented evidence that many in the 'leadership' (if there is such a thing) did not make that alignment. Moreover the idea that this is a campaign to silence the Jewish communities of Eastern Ukraine doesn't make sense if they haven't expressed any dissent in the first place. Your links were from March and were an open letter by some Jewish organizations in Kiev to Putin. I fail to see how this should persuade us that what seems like open anti-semitism is actually a deeper kind of political repression.
 
Right and I presented evidence that many in the 'leadership' (if there is such a thing) did not make that alignment. Moreover the idea that this is a campaign to silence the Jewish communities of Eastern Ukraine doesn't make sense if they haven't expressed any dissent in the first place. Your links were from March and were an open letter by some Jewish organizations in Kiev to Putin. I fail to see how this should persuade us that what seems like open anti-semitism is actually a deeper kind of political repression.

They're being silenced to stop them from expressing dissent. After they start talking to the press and the media, the cat is out of the bag and it's all over. No point in silencing them then now is it? Ofc, they failed in keeping it all a secret but you can imagine that the people responsible for this intimidation campaign would have preferred to keep it all a secret, away from the press.
I'm pretty sure I made this point repeteadly.

Anyway. I'm basically exhausted from this discussion. We're spinning in ever widening circles and I'm not interested in digging up more bullets to bring to the firefight. It's half an hour to midnight here and tomorrow I have to start making preparations for Easter.

There is a way to see which one of us has the correct theory but it'll take a lot of things to fall in place so that we can control for irregularities and it's really not the outcome I'd like to see.

If eastern part of Ukraine goes to Russia and then we see a rise in anti-semitism in the region, then you'd be right, this is plain old anti-semitism at work making people hate the jews. Because by my logic, since this is mainly a campaign to censor dissent and not driven by anti-semitic policies, if the pro-russians get their way, there is no reason for them to bully or intimidate the jews because they won. Who cares what some stupid people who were on the "wrong" side of the fence believed in and now they have to live in Russia or go back to Ukraine or whatever. An ofc, the jewish communities musn't rock the boat above the current methods, like the articles that were published by rabbis or jewish leaders.

So this is the scenario that could verify which one of us has the correct approach on the topic. But we would both regret it because I would be quite upset that eastern Ukraine went to Russia and you'd feel quite bad because you guessed right and now jewish people in the new western part of russia would be the target of abuse.
Yeah...

So lets not go there.

Anyway, good night and happy easter.
 

Good to know. However worth keeping an eye on...

New Republic said:
On the other hand, says Vladimir Fedorin, an independent Russian journalist working in Ukraine, we shouldn't totally dismiss these fliers. "I think the fliers are fake, but the anti-Maidan crowd is a collection of the hardcore 'alternative' variety and criminals, so it's possible some of them are capable of this." To wit, there were also reports of teenagers distributing these fliers.

Everyone I think knows there are groups capable of this... well... almost everyone.
 
Wrong. Requiring someone to register their firearm is because of something they're doing or have done. Requiring Jews to register is because of what they were when they were born.

Wrong. Requiring someone to register their firearm has nothing to do with something they're doing or have done. That's a rather shallow and completely incorrect view of the situation. Millions of gun owners have done nothing to have to register their firearms. Ever heard of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution?

Its more like a fascist approach, just like requiring Jews to register themselves because of their religion.
 
Equating registering Jews with registering firearms.
That didn't take long .

Because controls making it harder for felons and insane people to get guns is the same as ovens? Somebody needs to explain that one to me. I don't understand.

I'll be happy to explain it to you.

Registration leads to confiscation or creating criminals out of law abiding citizens who wish to not turn in their firearms, like with Connecticut's and NY's new gun laws.

Registration and licensing have no effect on crime, as criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. Indeed, a national survey of prisoners conducted by Wright and Rossi for the Department of Justice found that 82% agreed that "gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens; criminals will always be able to get guns."

Further, felons are constitutionally exempt from a gun registration requirement. According to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Haynes v. U.S., since felons are prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, compelling them to register firearms would violate the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination. 8 Only law-abiding citizens would be required to comply with registration--citizens who have neither committed crime nor have any intention of doing so.

TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL
 
Μολὼν λαβέ;1063164887 said:
Registration leads to confiscation or creating criminals out of law abiding citizens
Citizens choose not to obey registration laws.
That makes them criminals.

Nobody wants to confiscate the guns of honest citizens.
3/4 of NRA membership supported Toomey/Manchin, both having A ratings from the NRA .
 
This is obviously another lie written by the usual suspects that is designed to get America involved in yet another war that is not our fight. It is just like the "weapons of mass destruction" lie in Iraq. It's just like the Syria using chemical weapons on their own people lie, etc,etc,etc. The "unmentionables" who run the media make up these lies to involve us in their conflicts. Everything's about the unmentionables, don't you know? And we have a lying, completely corrupt media that the unmentionables control and a few hundred million sports fan type idiots that believe everything they say.
 
There are antisemites in all parts of Ukraine and on both sides of the political and linguistic divide. Svoboda, whose leader has made notoriously antisemitic remarks, has gotten 30% or more support in several provinces of western Ukraine. One of the co-founders of that party is now a Fatherland party member (Tymoshenko's party) who ran the Maidan self-defense groups and currently heads the National Security and Defense Council. No matter who you side with in this matter, you have to be worried about antisemitism. Should there be a civil war there then you can expect attacks on the Jewish community all over Ukraine and by factions on all sides.

Also, if the head of the ADL is saying people are overplaying antisemitism, then you have to go along with them, mainly because the ADL love to overplay antisemitism and are not prone to downplaying it.
 
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This is obviously another lie written by the usual suspects that is designed to get America involved in yet another war that is not our fight.
It is just like the "weapons of mass destruction" lie in Iraq.
It's just like the Syria using chemical weapons on their own people lie, etc,etc,etc. The "unmentionables" who run the media make up these lies to involve us in their conflicts.
Everything's about the unmentionables, don't you know? And we have a lying, completely corrupt media that the unmentionables control and a few hundred million sports fan type idiots that believe everything they say.
What a Clownish piece of conspiracist anti-semitica by Mosby.
Baseless as well.
If any treachery at all, it's probably one side trying to discredit the other.

There's no chance in anyone's [sane] mind that the USA is getting involved because of this or anything else. It ain't.
You post BaseLess Elders-of-Zion garbage, never shedding any light.
If anything is clear/well-founded, it's that Jews did Not manufacture this story, nor any other you uncontrollably Drooled up.
By ALL accounts there are plenty of Jew-haters on both sides of the barricades.. we don't need one here too.


http://time.com/67272/ukraine-jew-register-donetsk/ said:
"....The separatists’ ideology rests on two claims that were hard to defend even without their new anti-Semitic label. First, they have said that Ukraine’s revolution in February brought fascists to power in Kiev, and second, they have insisted that armed separatism is the only way to keep those fascists from taking over eastern Ukraine. At the entrance to their “People’s Republic,” on top of a pile of tires, is a poster with a big, crossed-out swastika and the words “No Fascism.” So for them to be seen as anti-Semites is a particularly painful irony.

That was part of the reason suspicion fell on their political opponents as soon as the fliers started making the rounds online. Dmitro Tkachenko, who helped organize a large rally in Donetsk on Thursday to support the unity of Ukraine, called the flier “a brilliant piece of disinformation” against the separatists. Asked if one of his fellow activists for Ukrainian unity could have staged it, Tkachenko says it’s possible. “But this is a sophisticated trick, and to be honest, I don’t think any of our folks are that smart,” he tells TIME.

More likely, Tkachenko says, the fliers were the work of an opportunistic splinter group, from separatists who just want to make money from their newfound impunity.
Over the past week, they have managed to seize numerous government buildings in Donetsk, most recently the city hall on Wednesday, without any resistance from the police. “But their movement is very divided,” says Tkachenko. It includes various groups of armed thugs who answer to no single leader. So it’s quite possible that some of the more entrepreneurial goons among them just felt like making a bit of extortion money on the side.

Instead, they seem to have intensified the backlash against all their fellow separatists. The rally on Thursday gathered at least two thousand people, not bad considering that the local police had warned locals to stay away, citing concerns of a separatist attack on the demonstration. As for the Jewish community, its members have no intention of showing up to register their property with the vigilantes of the People’s Republic or anyone else. “It looked like a pretty stupid provocation,” says Larissa Loyko, a representative of civil society organization the Jewish Foundation of Ukraine.
She suspects the separatists may indeed have been behind it, because Jewish leaders openly supported Ukraine’s revolution this winter.".."
 
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Μολὼν λαβέ;1063164887 said:
I'll be happy to explain it to you.

Registration leads to confiscation or creating criminals out of law abiding citizens who wish to not turn in their firearms, like with Connecticut's and NY's new gun laws.



TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL

And that has what to do with the Holocaust? Jeez.
 
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