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Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

If this is real then it is going to dramatically alter the situation. It's simply too evocative of Naziism to go unchecked. I would imagine that this isn't real, and is merely a small anti-Semitic group in Ukraine or in Russia attempting to take advantage of the chaotic situation. But we should find out either way. Bringing a religious edge to the conflict and targeting what are essentially bystanders will bring more parties into it. Israel may be the first, but other western nations will likely follow suit. I really find it hard to believe that any nation (besides the overly Muslim ones) would adopt a policy of anti-Semitism. There is no way to make that fly. It automatically turns you into the bad guys. It's too parallel to the Holocaust.
 
Sherman123 said:
It's just that it is so far outside the realm of possibility that discussing it just distracts from the issue under discussion in the OP.
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Exactly, and said by one Rabbi, no less.

Glen Contrarian said:
Wrong. Requiring someone to register their firearm is because of something they're doing or have done. Requiring Jews to register is because of what they were when they were born.
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Please don't encourage him.
 
Cryptic said:
I did read the thread and the source article said this: "it's unclear if the leaflets were issued by the pro-Russian leadership or a splinter group operating within the pro-Russian camp".

So yes, it looks like it is an idiot (in this case a Russian idiot) with a photocopier. Also, in my mind, the advisal to bring your "$50.00 registration fee" points to the idiot possibility.
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You didn't read it very thoroughly then. There are multiple reports of antisemitic acts.
 
Grant said:
After your explanation it seems our knowledge of Eastern Europe is quite clear.
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...

The people I referenced in my reply were painting the picture that eastern europe was full of rabid anti-semites, which is not true. It's actually very far from the truth. The only reason the jews are not being intimidated as they are is the same reason the tartars were intimidated when Crimea was occupied. To silence dissent. Tartars were overwhelmingly against Russian annexation of Crimea and so are the jews. It's more to do with practical reasons than anti-semitism. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is lying and promoting a false agenda.

EDIT: To be clear. I'm not saying each and every member of a group that does this has no anti-semitic feelings. I'm saying that the groups who are promoting these leaflets and this message are not doing it primarily out of anti-semitic reasons. they're doing this to silence anti-russian dissent. It just so happens that a lot of jewish organizations in Ukraine have been very vocally pro-Ukraine, just like tartars in Crimea. Again, not anti-semitism, it's about keeping peoples' mouths shut in regards to any pro-ukranian sentiment.
 
Ockham said:
This OP story gives me chills and it's not because of the temperature outside. It's almost as if these separatists were baiting the rest of the world by doing this and daring anyone to defy it.
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Who is saying it is the separatists? The government in Kiev have links to neo-nazi anti-Semitics that could easily be behind this as well.
 
PeteEU said:
Who is saying it is the separatists? The government in Kiev have links to neo-nazi anti-Semitics that could easily be behind this as well.
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Pushilin, the 'Peoples Governor', admitted it came from his organization but did not confirm that he authorized it. Most are alleging that the separatist secretary Kriakov is probably behind it due to his extreme antisemetic views and connections to slavic Neo-Nazi groups.
 
Cardinal said:
You didn't read it very thoroughly then. There are multiple reports of antisemitic acts.
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What?

The question is: Was the leaflet posted by an idiot, or is it an official act of the Russian seperatist government in Donetsk? It does not really matter if there were more antismeitic acts. Yes, there have probably been more.

The same question stands: Are these antisemitic acts represanative of the Russian seperatists as a whole- is it their official policy? Or, are these antisemitic acts being performed by any one of the groups of armed idiots on the Russian side?

As the report said they leaflet may well have been a "splinter group", I am going with the "idiots" theory.
 
Cryptic said:
What?

The question is: Was the leaflet posted by an idiot, or is it an official act of the Russian seperatist government in Donetsk? It does not really matter if there were more antismeitic acts. Yes, there have probably been more.

The same question stands: Are these antisemitic acts represantive of the Russian seperatists as a whole- is it their official policy? Or, are these antisemitic acts being performed by any one of the groups of armed idiots on the Russian side.

As the report said they leaflet may well have been a "splinter group", I am going with the "idiots" theory.
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At this point it seems unlikely that Pushilin authorized it, however since he admitted it came from within his organization (without authorization) it seems probably to suspect splinter elements. The most likely suspect that has been reported is the organizations secretary Kriakov who was in fact privately accused by several Jewish representatives in Donetsk.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Wrong. Requiring someone to register their firearm is because of something they're doing or have done. Requiring Jews to register is because of what they were when they were born.
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No you're wrong..... Owning a firearm is NOT against the law, nor is anyone who owns one breaking the law.

The purpose of registration is identification, and when it's mandatory it is mandatory identification.

First I don't give a **** about your "opinion" on this issue, but in what universe does privacy go out the window when once embraces their civil liberties?

Maybe we should start registering protestors with the government next -- because "you never know."

You're messing with a slippery slope here and the end result will be mandatory government inspections of your home...... It's only a matter if time through "progress" that that will happen.

It only took a few years before the Patriot Act was shifted from terrorists to US citizens....

Registration leads to confiscation - that is the intent. Just like mandatory registration of Jews in Germany lead to their holocaust.

This has NOTHING to do with crime and everything to do with a government that is authoritarian and tyrannical - a government that doesn't like what they cannot control.

What you fail to realize is that all these ideas are nothing more than IDEAS, weather or not it's religion or politics - registration is nothing more than a means to identify an individual, segregate and individual or cull an individual....
 
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rocket88 said:
Great, now Israel will get involved. That's just what the situation calls for. Not.

It will be interesting to see how it is handled if they do get involved. After all, Israel protecting the Jews in Ukraine isn't far off from Putin protecting the Russians.

Is this only in Eastern Ukraine, or is it all over Ukraine?
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Why would Israel need to get involved? The Sec of State is on the case.
 
Mr.Nick said:
No you're wrong..... Owning a firearm is NOT against the law, nor is anyone who owns one breaking the law.

The purpose of registration is identification, and when it's mandatory it is mandatory identification.

First I don't give a **** about your "opinion" on this issue, but in what universe does privacy go out the window when once embraces their civil liberties?

Maybe we should start registering protestors with the government next -- because "you never know."

You're messing with a slippery slope here and the end result will be mandatory government inspections of your home...... It's only a matter if time through "progress" that that will happen.

It only took a few years before the Patriot Act was shifted from terrorists to US citizens....

Registration leads to confiscation - that is the intent. Just like mandatory registration of Jews in Germany lead to their holocaust.

This has NOTHING to do with crime and everything to do with a government that is authoritarian and tyrannical - a government that doesn't like what they cannot control.

What you fail to realize is that all these ideas are nothing more than IDEAS, weather or not it's religion or politics - registration is nothing more than a means to identify an individual, segregate and individual or cull an individual....
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*sigh*. Guy, you go on ahead with your 'gun owners are the real victims' rant. You and I could argue on this all day long - you'd be sure I'm flat wrong, and I'd be sure you're flat wrong...sorta reminds me of religious debates I've had in the past.

My brother was at least as conservative as you, and he was SO sure that "an armed society is a peaceful society". I mentioned Japan and asked him what he thought the homicide rate in Japan was, since guns are scarce as hen's teeth there. His reply was, "I don't know, at least as much as ours!" And the argument went downhill from there. The ignorance - willful ignorance - simply astounds.

But you go on ahead with your rant - I won't reply further.
 
Sherman123 said:
At this point it seems unlikely that Pushilin authorized it, however since he admitted it came from within his organization (without authorization) it seems probably to suspect splinter elements. The most likely suspect that has been reported is the organizations secretary Kriakov who was in fact privately accused by several Jewish representatives in Donetsk.
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If Pushilin said it was issued under his authority, but with out authorization, then I guess I can accept that.

At the same time, the syntax of the leaflet suggested somebody with a low education wrote it. Perhaps the source is wrong as to who authorized it and it was just an idiot group, or perhaps this does not say much about the intellects of the Russian seperatist leadership?

For example:
- "Slavic Republic of Donetsk"? Urkainians are slavs to. Thus, Donestsk is going to be "slavic" whether it is Russian or Ukrainian. Transdinistra dispute involves non slavic Romanians.
- Registering with Ukrainians? Do friendly, anti western Ukrainiains still register? Who exactly is a Ukrainian vs a russifed Ukrainian?
- Dont forget to bring your fifty bucks in cash! Yeah, I am sure that is going right into the Donetsk treasury.
 
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Rainman05 said:
What do you know of eastern europe cardinal? What do you understand of this place in the world other than it's "a bit west of russia". Pathetic.

Your assumption are completely unfounded and try and paint a picture that doesn't exist.

This is happening because a lot of jews and jewish organizations in Ukraine have came out very outspokenly in support of ukrainian independence and territorial integrity. And hence, the pro-russian forces in eastern Ukraine have decided, in order to suppress dissent to the occupation and the inevitable path for russian annexation of eastern ukraine, to intimidate and scare the jews into silence and submission. Just like they did with the tartars in Crimea. It's not about anti-semitism. It's about being eficient at suppressing dissent and it's easy to target a group of people based on their ethnicity. So just target them and the jews who support Ukraine, as per the declaration of jewish organizations, will be intimidated and less likely to cause problems.

You're both talking out of your asses about things you have no understanding of.
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So targeting Jewish people based on their ethnicity, whether or not its for larger political reasons, isn't anti-semitic?
 
Mr. Invisible said:
So targeting Jewish people based on their ethnicity, whether or not its for larger political reasons, isn't anti-semitic?
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Given the history and 6 million jews murdered in the holocaust and the amount of anti-semetic views still in much of Europe, I can't blame the reaction to believe it would be anti-semetic.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
So targeting Jewish people based on their ethnicity, whether or not its for larger political reasons, isn't anti-semitic?
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... did you read what I wrote?

Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.


Ockham said:
Given the history and 6 million jews murdered in the holocaust and the amount of anti-semetic views still in much of Europe, I can't blame the reaction to believe it would be anti-semetic.
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You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
 
Cardinal said:
Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

Well, that's a headline you never want to see unless you're doing a history report on the lead-up to World War II.



Ah, according to Israeli media. The order was probably given to everyone as some part of bizarre census and "Israeli media" are just making it out like Jews specifically were being targeted.



Oh.



Yes, Olga, you probably wouldn't, because that's how antisemitism rolls in Europe, West and East: something terrible is done to the Jews there, then a horror takes over at what has just been done and everyone learns their lesson for the next century (give or take a few years) until the whole thing happens all over again.

Why Jews continue to remain especially in East Europe is a mystery to me.
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Jeez, I thought it was the people Western Ukraine that were the new Nazis. Guess not.
 
Rainman05 said:
... did you read what I wrote?

Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.




You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
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Combined with other reports of antisemitic acts your personal analysis seems dubious to me, unless you have something else to substantiate it. What's alarming to me is that with the breakdown of a central order antisemitic acts are on the rise. That tells me something about what's lurking underneath that region's culture and attitudes.
 
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Cardinal said:
Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

Well, that's a headline you never want to see unless you're doing a history report on the lead-up to World War II.



Ah, according to Israeli media. The order was probably given to everyone as some part of bizarre census and "Israeli media" are just making it out like Jews specifically were being targeted.



Oh.



Yes, Olga, you probably wouldn't, because that's how antisemitism rolls in Europe, West and East: something terrible is done to the Jews there, then a horror takes over at what has just been done and everyone learns their lesson for the next century (give or take a few years) until the whole thing happens all over again.

Why Jews continue to remain especially in East Europe is a mystery to me.
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Maybe it is because it is their country too. Why would you want them to leave?
 
iguanaman said:
Maybe it is because it is their country too. Why would you want them to leave?
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As a Jew I would not feel comfortable living in a region that saw cycles of antisemitism. I'm speaking for myself.
 
Rainman05 said:
... did you read what I wrote?

Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.




You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
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I did read what you wrote. And you said that they weren't targeting Jews because of their ethnicity, but rather because of their dissent in pushing for Ukrainian sovereignty.


You tell Ockham to read, but you yourself should read. You stated that

Rainman05 said:
The people I referenced in my reply were painting the picture that eastern europe was full of rabid anti-semites, which is not true.
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I never painted that picture that eastern Europe was full of anti-semites, I stated specifically that there was anti-semitism coming from the Right Sector in the Ukraine.

Mr. Invisible said:
This is quite disturbing. There are a number of reports collaborating the anti-Semitism from Right Sector in the Ukraine.
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Rainman05 said:
You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
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And you missed my point which was and is, it doesn't matter what the actual reason may or may not be given the history and 6 million jews murdered during the holocaust as well as the still present anti-semitism in Europe. Do you understand yet?
 
Cardinal said:
Combined with other reports of antisemitic acts your personal analysis seems dubious to me, unless you have something else to substantiate it.
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My personal analysis is the only correct one that one can draw from the news you and others posted.

Look. Let me try and explain this in the easiest fashion possible.

A word to describe strong sentiments against tartars would be anti-tartarism. Yes? Now if someone were to come with a news saying "anti-tartarist sentiments are on the rise in Crimea", you'd probably shrug your shoulders and say "Well, someone should do something about that because discrimination is bad". But if a news piece comes with the text "anti-semitic sentiments are on the rise in eastern ukraine", you reaction, conditioned by a number of factors would be "OMG, HOLOCAUST, HOLOCAUST, DO SOMETHING IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN". And that sort of response can be a justified one at times. However. This is not one of those times.

This is one of those times when automatism is bad because it prevents you from understanding the reality of the situation.

If I was in charge of getting rid of dissent in an area, what I'd do is that i'd start with the easiest targets to intimidate that may be the most likely people to cause trouble. And I look around in eastern ukraine and I see a handful of tartars... ok, lets send some people to make sure they shut up because they're afraid. And I see some jews and I know that jewish groups for over a month, have actively voiced pro-ukranian sentiments... so I say lets go shut them up too just in case they may be like the other jews. It's not about anti-semitism because i'm not targetting jews for the jewishness, I'm targetting them because they're the most likely candidates for causing dissenting statements. And I can't have that because it must seem that ALL people in eastern ukraine want to go to Russia or be independent or autonomous or something. But not ukranian. And people who voice a different opinion need to be shut up. It's a very simple case of censorship of the masses. And you start with shutting up the easiest people to shut up and work your way to the more stubborn ones or the ones who are harder to find. Like pro-ukranian ukrainians or pro-ukranian russians.

Everyone who may issue anti-russian sentiments needs to be silenced. there are no special allowances or special measures taken against jews. It just seems that there because people use terms like anti-semitic attacks to automate a response in people. And while it may be beneficial to have people more concerned about what is happening in eastern ukraine and draw attention to the situation, it's doing it by provoking the wrong path. It's putting up the discrimination that jewish people are facing in eastern ukraine as above the discrimination that other people who may/are pro-ukrainian by using a word that has strong connotations. When in fact, it's not about ethnicity, it's about censorship. People who don't fall in line need to shut up and make it seem like all eastern ukraine wants to go to russia.

It's distorting reality. And if we start distorting reality, how can we possbilty understand what is going on there? We can't. So lets be factual about things and then understand what is happening.

Ockham said:
And you missed my point which was and is, it doesn't matter what the actual reason may or may not be given the history and 6 million jews murdered during the holocaust as well as the still present anti-semitism in Europe. Do you understand yet?
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No, you don't understand. I understand everything completely and I also understanding that automaton responses and distorting reality is not good in the long run. The holocaust has nothing to do with this.

Read above and try and understand.
 
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