• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Feds move in on Nevada rancher's herd over illegal grazing

American said:
Go look how much of Nevada the federal government controls, then get back to me.

291 - Federal Lands in the US | Strange Maps | Big Think
Click to expand...

Convert that map to it's grazing capacity, rainfall, and climax use and get back to me.

It takes roughly 20 acres to support one cow. Multiply that by 900 head- more for the calves raised until 6 months old... Bundy is illegally using 26,000 acres. :shock:

Or more likely severely overgrazing a lesser amount. Problem with overgrazing is it permanently alters the flora that is very expensive to correct.

Here in Oklahoma, a land not noted for bountiful rainfall, we call places like Nevada's range land- "God's County", because NO ONE is willing to pay for that about worthless land. Face the facts, Bundy's family has a century to buy it, Bundy himself refused to pay the ridiculously low stipend to use the land he wants OTHERS to fight the Government for... :doh

He calls it 'His Land' but he won't even pay the dirt cheap grazing fee.... :doh
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Actually in the same article that I linked BLM offered to give Bundy some money from the auction.
Click to expand...

Actually, that is not the case....

"BUNKERVILLE, Nevada (Reuters) - U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038

ANd anything that Bundy put on public property was a gift from him to us.
Click to expand...

Well, that's not true....I suspect that the resolution of damaged property will be determined by the courts...If I were him, I'd argue that the equipment and fencing that they destroyed was worth $1 million dollars...

Bundy gave away his cattle when he decided for personal reasons that he would no longer pay grazing fees to the BLM.
Click to expand...

Bull ****. Unless you believe that the government is all powerful, and has the right to just declare themselves masters of the land, and you now need pay them protection like the mob, then you AND the several liberal judges he has lost in court with are just wrong....People won't stand for this type of totalitarian authoritarianism.

But he was stupid enough to believe that trying to pay the State and county grazing fees were going to save his stupid ass.
Click to expand...

The state is whom this family has dealt with for over a hundred and fifty years, since the early to mid 1800s on this land. Now all the sudden because some granola munching, bleeding heart is willing to be used as a useful idiot for Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme on the land he gets to kick this farmer out, destroy his stuff, and steal his cattle? And you agree with it? Ughhhhh, what have we come to in this country.

The entire Bundy family seem a bit ignorant.
Click to expand...

They won. The government thugs backed down, and you didn't even get the resolution right in your opening statement of this post, so I wouldn't say they are they ones 'ignorant' here.

I am hoping that they back their threats and use their guns to settle this, it would be very entertaining unless they actually hurt someone.
Click to expand...

What? Even this statement doesn't make sense...You want them to use their weapons, but you don't want anyone to get hurt?.....How is that possible, outside the early Hollywood 'B' movies that is?

But we both know that wont happen and this just fade away after Bundy makes his sell out deal final.
Click to expand...

Nah, this won't fade away, it will in the News, but behind the scenes "enviro-Nazi's" and corrupt politicans like "Dirty" Harry Reid will continue to bully people like this when they want something...

"But an official with an environmental group that had notified the government it would sue unless federal land managers sought to protect tortoises on the grazing allotment used by Bundy's cattle expressed outrage at the end of the cattle roundup."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038

And fools like the Sierra club that I suspect is this "unnamed official" with the enviro group will continue to have an incestuous relationship with the EPA to bully citizens and strong arm them out of their rights....They aren't 'green', they're red....Communist red.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
That is a thin thing to grasp at, Have you found any merit to the claims yet?
Click to expand...

Who's "grasping"? Jones's site was linked on Drudge, and I followed the link. But in answer to your question, the blogosphere is talking about it, and here's a link from NRO: Nevada Ranch Standoff Escalates, Questions about Reid Arise | National Review Online

Meanwhile, were you serious when you posted that you hoped guns would be used against citizens and that this would be "entertaining"?
 
Very impolite to form a quote to make it appear to be the words written by an opponent or in other words you are not only making up facts, you also in this instance appear to be denying your own words.
austrianecon said:
Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
Your post should be in the "conspiracy" forum because it is really out there.

Dry Lake Solar plant is in California and Rory Reid has no connection to it. The Center for Land Use Interpretation[/qoute](sic)

Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone.. see those words.. big difference. So lets get that fact correct. ;)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Here's my original quote
Somerville said:
Your post should be in the "conspiracy" forum because it is really out there.

Dry Lake Solar plant is in California and Rory Reid has no connection to it. The Center for Land Use Interpretation

The Chinese deal that Rory Reid actually was involved in was canceled last year. Company dumps big Laughlin solar project, says market won

Clark County purchased the grazing rights from the BLM in 1998 and removed the land covered from the local allotment of grazing lands Roundup of Trespassing Cattle Begins in Nevada Desert


You may have "a lot more of corruption going on" but so far you are batting 0.000
Click to expand...

Here's the post I was responding to Originally Posted by austrianecon I have bolded the parts which austrianecon is apparently ignoring
It's not a conspiracy theory and I never said it was in Gold Butte specifically but BLM lands used by Ranchers in northen Nevada. I actually have facts on my side and I got more for you.

You've heard of Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone, right? Gold Butte is gonna be used as "Preserve" (mitigation) to off set the land damage to build the Dry Lake Solar plant which was involves a guy named Rory Reid, you know Harry Reid's son. Father and Son were behind that deal.

The BLM claim is Bundy hasn't paid any fees. But Clark County who has grazing rights leases for that land with him that pre-date BLM is being paid by Mr. Bundy.

This is a political fight between Harry Reid and his cohorts against a rancher who doesn't want to kowtow to a $5 billion solar plant.

But don't let me embarrass you too much. I got a lot more of corruption going on here.
Click to expand...

Now let the readers decide
 
Fenton said:
Oh BS.

Then why the false narrative about the "endangered" desert tortoise ?

Why would the FED need to use the narrative about some poor tutles if the BLMs rights over all public land were absolute ?


You people need ro remember what happened the last time the Fed armied up to against American citizens.

WACO happened.
Click to expand...

WACO was not about refusing to pay for the use of public lands and then being evicted from them. What would happen if you refused to pay your rent/mortgage? Another WACO?
 
Dittohead not! said:
WACO was not about refusing to pay for the use of public lands and then being evicted from them. What would happen if you refused to pay your rent/mortgage? Another WACO?
Click to expand...

So you think that the Federal government is the owner of the United States, and we are just the tenants....Nice.
 
j-mac said:
So you think that the Federal government is the owner of the United States, and we are just the tenants....Nice.
Click to expand...

Ummm.. sure, that's what I said, sure.

No, come to think of it, that isn't it at all. Take another look at what I actually did say.
 
This part of J-Mac's is just loaded with the type of hyperbole that some folks just know to be TRUE
The state is whom this family has dealt with for over a hundred and fifty years, since the early to mid 1800s on this land. Now all the sudden because some granola munching, bleeding heart is willing to be used as a useful idiot for Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme on the land he gets to kick this farmer out, destroy his stuff, and steal his cattle? And you agree with it? Ughhhhh, what have we come to in this country.
Click to expand...

1867 is now "early to mid 1800s"?

"all of a sudden" is what you call proceedings that have taken place over the past twenty years?

Just what does "Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme" have to do with the BLM land in question?

Why are the righties and "true patriots" supporting a guy who is refusing to pay what amounts to a tax for using public land? They so often seem to be screaming about the "moochers and takers" getting free stuff and not paying taxes - don't they see this guy is taking a whole lot more than most poor folks in this country?
 
Somerville said:
This part of J-Mac's is just loaded with the type of hyperbole that some folks just know to be TRUE


1867 is now "early to mid 1800s"?

"all of a sudden" is what you call proceedings that have taken place over the past twenty years?

Just what does "Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme" have to do with the BLM land in question?

Why are the righties and "true patriots" supporting a guy who is refusing to pay what amounts to a tax for using public land? They so often seem to be screaming about the "moochers and takers" getting free stuff and not paying taxes - don't they see this guy is taking a whole lot more than most poor folks in this country?
Click to expand...

Clearly, the right wing is supporting squatters' rights.
 
jonny5 said:
It isn't federal land legally. The federal govt was never given the power by the states to seize state land for these purposes.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter now, the standoff is over. But the perpetrator of the crime owes the federal government over one million dollars in grazing fees, fines and interest. If he paid that, America could pay some interest on our huge deficit.
 
j-mac said:
Actually, that is not the case....

"BUNKERVILLE, Nevada (Reuters) - U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038



Well, that's not true....I suspect that the resolution of damaged property will be determined by the courts...If I were him, I'd argue that the equipment and fencing that they destroyed was worth $1 million dollars...



Bull ****. Unless you believe that the government is all powerful, and has the right to just declare themselves masters of the land, and you now need pay them protection like the mob, then you AND the several liberal judges he has lost in court with are just wrong....People won't stand for this type of totalitarian authoritarianism.



The state is whom this family has dealt with for over a hundred and fifty years, since the early to mid 1800s on this land. Now all the sudden because some granola munching, bleeding heart is willing to be used as a useful idiot for Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme on the land he gets to kick this farmer out, destroy his stuff, and steal his cattle? And you agree with it? Ughhhhh, what have we come to in this country.



They won. The government thugs backed down, and you didn't even get the resolution right in your opening statement of this post, so I wouldn't say they are they ones 'ignorant' here.



What? Even this statement doesn't make sense...You want them to use their weapons, but you don't want anyone to get hurt?.....How is that possible, outside the early Hollywood 'B' movies that is?



Nah, this won't fade away, it will in the News, but behind the scenes "enviro-Nazi's" and corrupt politicans like "Dirty" Harry Reid will continue to bully people like this when they want something...

"But an official with an environmental group that had notified the government it would sue unless federal land managers sought to protect tortoises on the grazing allotment used by Bundy's cattle expressed outrage at the end of the cattle roundup."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038

And fools like the Sierra club that I suspect is this "unnamed official" with the enviro group will continue to have an incestuous relationship with the EPA to bully citizens and strong arm them out of their rights....They aren't 'green', they're red....Communist red.
Click to expand...

Thought people might be interested in this quote directly from one of the participants. It seems there is more to the story than being reported.




"Steve W 6 minutes ago
1

9


I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. The rights to the land use are called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the Bureau of Land Management.
They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repairs and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these monies against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penance he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM and tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes.
In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the endangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortoise. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now they’re desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the Constitution of the United States of America. Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle belong to him, regardless of where they are they are my father’s property.
His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even existed. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two borders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfield Auction and sell them. All this with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?"
 
jonny5 said:
It isn't federal land legally. The federal govt was never given the power by the states to seize state land for these purposes.
Click to expand...
As the "feds" were there before there was state, I don't believe any state land was seized. Show me otherwise or stop making false statements
 
ludin said:
while this might be the case it is some cattle and they are basically sending in an army. can we say overkill?
Click to expand...

It was an army. People can call it whatever you want but the feds sent an army that day.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
It was an army. People can call it whatever you want but the feds sent an army that day.
Click to expand...

Yes, against its own citizens. This standoff has ended...but will there be another?
 
PirateMk1 said:
Thought people might be interested in this quote directly from one of the participants. It seems there is more to the story than being reported.




"Steve W 6 minutes ago
1

9


I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. The rights to the land use are called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the Bureau of Land Management.
They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repairs and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these monies against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penance he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM and tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes.
In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the endangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortoise. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now they’re desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the Constitution of the United States of America. Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle belong to him, regardless of where they are they are my father’s property.
His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even existed. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two borders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfield Auction and sell them. All this with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?"
Click to expand...

Sounds completely reasonable to me.
 
AJiveMan said:
Doesn't matter now, the standoff is over. But the perpetrator of the crime owes the federal government over one million dollars in grazing fees, fines and interest. If he paid that, America could pay some interest on our huge deficit.
Click to expand...

You mean pay down debt, which would never happen. An alternative would be getting rid of the BLM, thus saving 1.5 billion.
 
jonny5 said:
You mean pay down debt, which would never happen. An alternative would be getting rid of the BLM, thus saving 1.5 billion.
Click to expand...

Really?
Doesn't Uncle Sam collect fees for grazing and mining rights on the land we all own? I know they charge a small fee for parking and recreational use. Add it all up, and we should be making money from our land. If not, then we need to raise the fees and make sure that they're collected, even if it means evicting a few cattle now and again.
 
j-mac said:
Actually, that is not the case....

"BUNKERVILLE, Nevada (Reuters) - U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038
Click to expand...
Then you issue is with the link that I provided.



Well, that's not true....I suspect that the resolution of damaged property will be determined by the courts...If I were him, I'd argue that the equipment and fencing that they destroyed was worth $1 million dollars...
Click to expand...
Even the Bundy's admit that whatever improvements they do to public property isnt theirs that they dont own it the public does.

Bull ****. Unless you believe that the government is all powerful, and has the right to just declare themselves masters of the land, and you now need pay them protection like the mob, then you AND the several liberal judges he has lost in court with are just wrong....People won't stand for this type of totalitarian authoritarianism.
Click to expand...
If you dont pay grazing fees you cannot put stock on public property. Is that too hard too understand? if I were to take some cattle and let them loose on BLM property I wouldnt expect that I could easily get them back if I had not gone through the proper channels. laws and rules exist so that people dont take advantage of public property and exploit it. Perhaps you believe that everyone should be able to just go graze their animals on public lands? If so we would quickly end up with nothing to graze.


The state is whom this family has dealt with for over a hundred and fifty years, since the early to mid 1800s on this land. Now all the sudden because some granola munching, bleeding heart is willing to be used as a useful idiot for Harry Reid and his corrupt money making scheme on the land he gets to kick this farmer out, destroy his stuff, and steal his cattle? And you agree with it? Ughhhhh, what have we come to in this country.
Click to expand...
None of this is new where have you been under a rock?

For the record I dont like Reid, I am not a environmentalist, or a leftist, liberal, nor do I think that anyone is stealing cattle.


They won. The government thugs backed down, and you didn't even get the resolution right in your opening statement of this post, so I wouldn't say they are they ones 'ignorant' here.
Click to expand...
No the BLM ceased because a bunch of thugs showed up with guns intending to use them. The legal aspect didnt go away. Bundy will be in court soon you can bet on it.



What? Even this statement doesn't make sense...You want them to use their weapons, but you don't want anyone to get hurt?.....How is that possible, outside the early Hollywood 'B' movies that is?
Click to expand...
Some people just are not very good aims. Have you ever hunted with city folk?



Nah, this won't fade away, it will in the News, but behind the scenes "enviro-Nazi's" and corrupt politicans like "Dirty" Harry Reid will continue to bully people like this when they want something...

"But an official with an environmental group that had notified the government it would sue unless federal land managers sought to protect tortoises on the grazing allotment used by Bundy's cattle expressed outrage at the end of the cattle roundup."

http://www.newsweek.com/us-officials-end-stand-nevada-rancher-cliven-bundy-246038

And fools like the Sierra club that I suspect is this "unnamed official" with the enviro group will continue to have an incestuous relationship with the EPA to bully citizens and strong arm them out of their rights....They aren't 'green', they're red....Communist red.
Click to expand...

"enviro-Nazi's" lol shouldnt that be enviro-commies?

So really the actual actions of Cliven Bundy are of no concern as long as you can attack the Left? You made sure to mention Harry Reid a couple times and even brought up the EPA to make sure that this was a good hyper-partisan rant I guess. translated you sound more like "Those damn others!" Yes I know its all a big conspiracy by the left to make this a commie state right?

My guess is that you never heard of the Homestead act of 1862. Bundy Ranch is 160 acres and Cliven admits that the cattle are on public property and not his own property. In order for the budy's to homestead in the first place they had to agree to the terms offered by our government. Those terms are admition that the property was all government owned property to start with. So therefor the property in Clark County was owned by the Governemt prior to the Bundy's cattle operations that started in 1887. Either the Bundy's are morons or what are they up to?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom