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FBI Seizes Thousands of Artifacts from rural Indiana Home

From the article it doesn't indicate how/why they had reasonable suspicion of illegal activity/possession to justify the search warrant. Assuming they had reasonable suspicion, I have no objection to the search. It is important to prevent theft of cultural artifacts.
 
According to the fourth amendmen they may not do this without a warrant.

Also according to the fourth the reasons they give are not justifications for issueing a warant.

In fact deternmining what an object is etc seems to violate the fourth amendments requirement that particular item to be siezed must be described in a warrant.

I must be missing the part where the FBI was enforcing the law in this one. The article makes it sound like they are breaking it

The article isn't clear on whether they had a warrant or not. They should have had one.
 
From the article it doesn't indicate how/why they had reasonable suspicion of illegal activity/possession to justify the search warrant. Assuming they had reasonable suspicion, I have no objection to the search. It is important to prevent theft of cultural artifacts.

I don't consider it theft if the old guy has been walking around, picking up arrowheads off the ground for the last 80 years. If that's the case, every treasure hunter in the entire world has just been rendered unemployed, and a potential felon.
 
The FBI apparently are bored and needed something to do.

They are just playing along with this PC political bull. What about the FACT that most of these artifacts were willfully sold and traded by the original owners for money? The FBI going to say that if you don't have a receipt you can't own an antique?

This "tribe ownership" concept is nuts.
 
It is illegal to treasure hunt indian artifacts and the fact that this guy has so many is suspicious. Years ago we were camping in an alcove in Utah which was very cool. It had petroglyph's on the back wall and it was a kick to spend a few nights in an ancient dwelling. While digging a fire pit I cut a small piece of what looked like fishing line that I assumed some other camper left there as trash at some point. Turns out it was an alarm to guard against artifact hunters and it wasn't long until a BLM cop showed up. I had some splainin to do.:lol:

It is illegal on public land. Many artifacts are found on private land, especially in Indiana and Ohio. If I find it on my farm, it's mine. And if I sell it, it belongs to who I sell it to.
 
No he hasn't been arrested or charged, but I don't think it's right that they are seizing artifacts that he's been collecting for 80 years. They are seizing it to determine if he broke a law?

That doesn't seem right that they can do that. I understand that there are certain things that are not allowed to own, like moon rocks. But it's not like moon rocks have been laying all over the ground for the last several thousand years. He probably started collecting arrow heads when he was a little boy, and has done so for the rest of his life. I have a neighbor who collects all sorts of artifacts, and she has found a bullet and a piece of a belt buckle from the Civil War. Does she have to worry about stuff like that now? :roll:



There is a fine line between ancestral rights and collector's rights. I appreciate that now, finally, some aspects of North American heritage are being preserved from not allowing the harvesting of petrified wood to diving wrecks and so forth.

But it is established law that you cannot implement retroactively. If I have harvested some fossils and arrow heads when it was legal to do so, then it cannot be a crime today. With that, billions in native artifacts lay in private collections across the globe, artifacts that often hold deep spiritual meaning to First Nations, some of which are being negotiated, some returned through generosity and some through law suits.

It is also established in law that chattel is clear and since the days of the Magna Carta no state can simply seize anything unless it can prove wrongdoing or right of domain such as land for military bases etc., where the practice is compensation.

The reason they are seizing this man's stuff is simple logistics. He's 91, he won't live long enough to pose a serious litigation problem as even if heirs go after them they are not entitled to damages, only the value of the collection.

I wonder how they got a warrant? It's not the FBI I question here, but a brain dead judge who would not know the US Constitution's limitation of powers provisions.
 
It is illegal on public land. Many artifacts are found on private land, especially in Indiana and Ohio. If I find it on my farm, it's mine. And if I sell it, it belongs to who I sell it to.

I don't believe that's 100% true.

I believe burial sites, burial artifacts, and human remains are off limits regardless of where they're found (public or private property).
 
It is illegal on public land. Many artifacts are found on private land, especially in Indiana and Ohio. If I find it on my farm, it's mine. And if I sell it, it belongs to who I sell it to.

Picking up arrowheads is one thing. Digging in known artifact areas is illegal.
 
I don't consider it theft if the old guy has been walking around, picking up arrowheads off the ground for the last 80 years. If that's the case, every treasure hunter in the entire world has just been rendered unemployed, and a potential felon.

The legality depends on where he picked up the arrowheads. If it was on a reservation, public park or someone elses' property and he did not have permission, it is theft.
 
I wonder how they got a warrant? It's not the FBI I question here, but a brain dead judge who would not know the US Constitution's limitation of powers provisions.

Exactly. I said something similar on Facebook. What Judge would sign a warrant for this??
 
The article says "Robert A. Jones, special agent in charge of the Indianapolis FBI office, would not say at a news conference specifically why the investigation was initiated, but he did say the FBI had information about Miller's collection and acted on it by deploying its art crime team."

Presumably someone told the FBI that the collector had illegal artifacts and they got a warrant based on that information. If that was the case, there is nothing to be outraged about.
 
Exactly. I said something similar on Facebook. What Judge would sign a warrant for this??

I know you didn't ask me..but that was a rhetorical question, I hope.;) But since you asked, I'd like to offer this....the words "moronic", "idiotic" and "shameful" pop into my mind.
 
When did that law go into effect?

"Indian and Other Historical Artifacts: You may not collect any artifacts, ancient or historical, on public lands without a permit. This includes arrow heads or flakes, pottery or potsherds, mats, rock art, old bottles or pieces of equipment and buildings. These items are part of our national heritage and scientists are still learning much from them. Human burial remains on both public and private land are protected by federal and state law from being collected.

fossil Vertebrate Fossils: These include dinosaurs, mammals, sharks and fish, or any animal with skeletal structure. You cannot collect these fossils without a permit from the BLM.

Collecting Artifacts & Fossils - BLM Arizona
 
From your article:



Last I checked it was the FBI's job to enforce the law. Being old is not an excuse. And somehow I kinda doubt the FBI was terribly rough with the old guy.

So what law are they enforcing? This sounds like a fishing expedition.

Government is doing more and more of this. One recent example is the seizure of rare woods from one of the guitar companies. Supposedly enforcing another countries ban on exporting rare woods. A few hundred thousands of dollars of legal fees later, no wrongdoing was found and the wood was returned.
 
fossil Vertebrate Fossils: These include dinosaurs, mammals, sharks and fish, or any animal with skeletal structure. You cannot collect these fossils without a permit from the BLM.

I live inside of a national Park and the other day buddy took a mountain goats skull back with him to the city, boy was arrested right quick.
 
The article says "Robert A. Jones, special agent in charge of the Indianapolis FBI office, would not say at a news conference specifically why the investigation was initiated, but he did say the FBI had information about Miller's collection and acted on it by deploying its art crime team."

Presumably someone told the FBI that the collector had illegal artifacts and they got a warrant based on that information. If that was the case, there is nothing to be outraged about.



There is only one flaw in that argument: the word "presumably".
 
Exactly. I said something similar on Facebook. What Judge would sign a warrant for this??

I don't know about this particular case but digging artifacts is a big business, big and illegal. It is just as illegal to buy these things as it is to dig and sell them. Years ago I found a dino skeleton fully exposed out in the middle of nowhere in Utah. I took a piece as a souvenir and now I feel bad about it. Someday I will return it to the tail and leave the skeleton intact. It was the coolest thing I ever found in my desert tramping.
 
FBI seizes thousands of artifacts from rural Ind. home

~snip~ WALDRON, Ind. — FBI agents Wednesday seized "thousands" of cultural artifacts, including American Indian items, from the private collection of a 91-year-old man who had acquired them over the past eight decades. ~snip~

Um - why? What right does the Federal Bureau of Intimidation have to come into this guy's house and take his art? I don't understand. I mean, if he was an international art thief who had the Mona Lisa hidden behind a Thomas Kincaid painting, I'd say "OK," but they gave no indication in the article that that kind of artwork was found.

Thanks for posting Superfly.
All's I can say about this is that people are know to go onto private land, or Native American Lands and pick things up or dig in the soil to find artifacts.

These include arrowheads, pieces of pottery, beads or any other thing of what someone might construe as having a monetary value or collection value.

Usually, picking things off of these lands is an illegal practice. People found having done things like I mentioned are normally taken to task at the fullest extent of law, that is, serving time and paying restitution and damages.

Just disturbing artifacts found can get a person into deep sheet. How do I know this? I turn your attention to the scout master who disturbed a rock in Utah. Although the charge against him was dropped, what he did, unknowingly was a felony.

Ex-Scout leaders charged for toppling ancient Utah rock

Here's a story related directly to the thread subject;

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105195472
 
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Yet if I collect old cars in my back yard, I can get in trouble.
 
"Indian and Other Historical Artifacts: You may not collect any artifacts, ancient or historical, on public lands without a permit. This includes arrow heads or flakes, pottery or potsherds, mats, rock art, old bottles or pieces of equipment and buildings. These items are part of our national heritage and scientists are still learning much from them. Human burial remains on both public and private land are protected by federal and state law from being collected.

fossil Vertebrate Fossils: These include dinosaurs, mammals, sharks and fish, or any animal with skeletal structure. You cannot collect these fossils without a permit from the BLM.

Collecting Artifacts & Fossils - BLM Arizona

This is the important part. The FBI assumed he had done that.

I would like to see the affidavit that led to the search warrant.

Simple possession does not mean he obtained them illegally.

That law says you cannot take them from public land, not that he cannot possess them.
 
The article says "Robert A. Jones, special agent in charge of the Indianapolis FBI office, would not say at a news conference specifically why the investigation was initiated, but he did say the FBI had information about Miller's collection and acted on it by deploying its art crime team."

Presumably someone told the FBI that the collector had illegal artifacts and they got a warrant based on that information. If that was the case, there is nothing to be outraged about.

Here's where the collector probably went public.
He might have had a guest or guest over to his home, the guest might have seen the artifacts and known what they are or were.

The collector could also have bragged about having this or that of a collection, and it doesn't take much to pick up a phone and call an authority.

Authorities could also have been watching other collectors or gatherers of artifacts and did followups on leads.

The authorities wouldn't say what they found because they don't know. Usually, experts need to determine what was found in the home.
 
The article says "Robert A. Jones, special agent in charge of the Indianapolis FBI office, would not say at a news conference specifically why the investigation was initiated, but he did say the FBI had information about Miller's collection and acted on it by deploying its art crime team."

Presumably someone told the FBI that the collector had illegal artifacts and they got a warrant based on that information. If that was the case, there is nothing to be outraged about.

For anyone who studies bureaucracy this is easy to understand - bureaucracies are self-perpetuating. If you have an art-crime team, then that team needs to find something to do in order to justify its existence. If your town has a citizen safety committee, then that committee of bureaucrats is always going to find new ways of spending money to justify its existence.
 
Thanks for posting Superfly.
All's I can say about this is that people are know to go onto private land, or Native American Lands and pick things up or dig in the soil to find artifacts.

These include arrowheads, pieces of pottery, beads or any other thing of what someone might construe as having a monetary value or collection value.

Usually, picking things off of these lands is an illegal practice. People found having done things like I mentioned are normally taken to task at the fullest extent of law, that is, serving time and paying restitution and damages.

Just disturbing artifacts found can get a person into deep sheet. How do I know this? I turn your attention to the scout master who disturbed a rock in Utah. Although the charge against him was dropped, what he did, unknowingly was a felony.

Ex-Scout leaders charged for toppling ancient Utah rock

Here's a story related directly to the thread subject;

Arrests Made In Sale Of American Indian Artifacts : NPR

Oh man I remember that guy. :lol: And thanks for the info!
 
This is the important part. The FBI assumed he had done that.

I would like to see the affidavit that led to the search warrant.

Simple possession does not mean he obtained them illegally.

That law says you cannot take them from public land, not that he cannot possess them.

IMO the FBI should have better things to do than this but I don't know the whole story hear. The article in the OP was very poorly written and left more questions unanswered than answered.
 
I don't believe that's 100% true.

I believe burial sites, burial artifacts, and human remains are off limits regardless of where they're found (public or private property).

Like I said, if it's on my land it's mine. Mineral rights are another matter, but if somone is buried on my land and there is nobody left who can demonstrate that it is their relative, I don't care, I'll do with it/them as I please.

I probably won't adverstise it, but I will do what I need to do. And isn't that what oftenhappens already? Someone is building a parking lot and they come across something that looks like an old burial; somebody then decides to conceal the find so as not to end up losing their property rights.

If these tribes aren't prepared to finacially compensate finders of their "culture", they may not ever even know about the find. Just saying.
 
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