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Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood[W:87, 145]

Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Probably because je was quartered in the barracks and females weren't allowed in male barracks.

I saw both my husband's (before we married) and my brother's barracks rooms.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Have you never been in a military living situation where everyone is armed? Jesus Christ, in Afghanistan every soldier had a firearm, by order of General Allen, and yet when **** happened no one ever just started shooting wildly like you describe. No, cops/sentries do not just start shooting whoever has a gun. That's just a retarded thing to say.

We are all armed while deployed, there's no reason to disarm when we comes back.

Edit:
I realized you just said you never actually carried a firearm while in the service. Well sir, I have, quite often, and I was constantly surrounded by several other soldiers who were similarly armed. When **** happened, our training kicked in...we called out Description, Direction, Distance and followed 'react to contact' and 'gunnery' protocol. We all worked as one, not as individuals. My military experience is saturated with firearms carried by just about everyone, everywhere we went. I am thus acclimated to and very comfortable with walking among a well armed population.

We are not just talking about certain military bases though. And very few won't allow most military members onboard, no matter what branch they are or what command they are with. Most simply check to ensure the person has an ID and that it is valid.

I am married to a man who was part of base security for a major Navy installation and I'm pretty sure that what you believe would happen isn't what would really happen for somewhere like most Navy or Air Force or even Army or Marine bases. I have been to many throughout my life (on my own military ID and even as a dependent with my parents when I was younger). The vast majority, the vast majority of the time are completely open for any military members and dependents and even some civilians who get access granted to them to come on base. Many commissaries and exchanges are onbase. Many other services granted to dependents are onbase. Legal, FFSC, MWR and ITT centers, some bank branches, and plenty other things that are there to help us and dependents. The only time most service members on military bases are armed is when they are out of country (and even then it is in hostile environments, because most Navy bases still only see security forces armed onbase in "friendly" foreign countries, and I'm pretty sure places like Germany and other Army installations overseas only allow security to be armed normally). This includes places like Fort Hood. And it is wrong to assume that training would kick in automatically and give people a good idea of which person is good and which is bad when it comes to this type of situation, especially when you are talking about a mix of people in and out of uniform and having no clue which is truly the target. That simply isn't how things work here on bases in the states.

You are trying to apply exceptions (being in a combat zone environment) to a rule when it comes to what is best for bases here at home. They are not anywhere close to the same and they aren't even treated the same. Even most of those who have been to combat zones (including my own husband) see the difference and know that it would be a bad idea to allow military members to be armed onbase here at home. My husband has the experience of both being in combat zones (as a Marine) and being security/police for our bases here at home and even overseas (as a sailor). I barely had to get out the question and he agreed that it would be a very bad idea.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

I saw both my husband's (before we married) and my brother's barracks rooms.

So? Your experience defines the Army as a whole?
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

So? Your experience defines the Army as a whole?

Never said that. I was asking why someone's wife would not be allowed on base and you talked about barracks rooms, where many actually do allow women (at least during certain times) access. But since barracks rooms are mainly for single servicemembers, not married ones, then it is not generally an issue to begin with. Some military barracks do allow opposite sex members in rooms. Heck, a few bases have gone to apartment-like onbase barracks for members so they can have whoever they want in their rooms, whenever they want (so long as they are not causing problems of course). Sure there are still some bases where barracks are "opposite sex not allowed", but those are becoming more rare outside of training commands. The military is starting to realize that they aren't going to completely prevent their soldiers, sailors, Marines, or airmen from interacting with the opposite sex, so they are trying instead to simply limit it. Your own experience is also not what defines the rules for the Army as a whole. It mainly depends on the command.

But none of that had much to do with why a person's wife would not be allowed on base. Most bases allow wives on bases at any time because they have an ID card. Jerry explained it (at least a little, since I've never heard of such a precaution, since we, sailors, have family come with us up to the pier gate when we leave). And a married soldier would not normally be quartered in the barracks either. I'm assuming that some bases assign barracks rooms temporarily for pre-deployment, however that would not be common and certainly would not be for very long. (The Navy wouldn't have enough rooms to do that for us on most bases, we are already struggling with barracks space, one reason they made the onbase apartments in San Diego.)
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Never said that. I was asking why someone's wife would not be allowed on base and you talked about barracks rooms, where many actually do allow women (at least during certain times) access. But since barracks rooms are mainly for single servicemembers, not married ones, then it is not generally an issue to begin with. Some military barracks do allow opposite sex members in rooms. Heck, a few bases have gone to apartment-like onbase barracks for members so they can have whoever they want in their rooms, whenever they want (so long as they are not causing problems of course). Sure there are still some bases where barracks are "opposite sex not allowed", but those are becoming more rare outside of training commands. The military is starting to realize that they aren't going to completely prevent their soldiers, sailors, Marines, or airmen from interacting with the opposite sex, so they are trying instead to simply limit it. Your own experience is also not what defines the rules for the Army as a whole. It mainly depends on the command.

But none of that had much to do with why a person's wife would not be allowed on base. Most bases allow wives on bases at any time because they have an ID card. Jerry explained it (at least a little, since I've never heard of such a precaution, since we, sailors, have family come with us up to the pier gate when we leave). And a married soldier would not normally be quartered in the barracks either. I'm assuming that some bases assign barracks rooms temporarily for pre-deployment, however that would not be common and certainly would not be for very long. (The Navy wouldn't have enough rooms to do that for us on most bases, we are already struggling with barracks space, one reason they made the onbase apartments in San Diego.)

When I was in the Army, male billets were off limits to females.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

When I was in the Army, male billets were off limits to females.

And as I said, things are changing. They aren't all off limits now. Some still are, but not all of them. Visitors aren't generally allowed to stay overnight (but then again, most don't allow for any overnight guests of either gender), but many do allow for visitors during the day at least.

Plus, again, the original assertion was made about a married member and his wife being sneaked onbase, not into a barracks room. In most cases, on bases here in the US, there would have been no need to sneak her onbase. And in most cases, that married person would not have been in the barracks but rather in housing out in town or possibly onbase (although most military housing has moved offbase for most places) but where she would also be.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

And as I said, things are changing. They aren't all off limits now. Some still are, but not all of them. Visitors aren't generally allowed to stay overnight (but then again, most don't allow for any overnight guests of either gender), but many do allow for visitors during the day at least.

Plus, again, the original assertion was made about a married member and his wife being sneaked onbase, not into a barracks room. In most cases, on bases here in the US, there would have been no need to sneak her onbase. And in most cases, that married person would not have been in the barracks but rather in housing out in town or possibly onbase (although most military housing has moved offbase for most places) but where she would also be.

I doubt youll find and enlisted barracks, in the Army, that aren't off limits to opposite sex soldiers.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

I doubt youll find and enlisted barracks, in the Army, that aren't off limits to opposite sex soldiers.

I was allowed to go into my brother's barracks on Fort Hood when I visited him. I had a hotel room for the night offbase, but I still could go into his barracks room when I was onbase. And that was over 10 years ago.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

I was allowed to go into my brother's barracks on Fort Hood when I visited him. I had a hotel room for the night offbase, but I still could go into his barracks room when I was onbase. And that was over 10 years ago.

When I was at Ft. Hood, females weren't allowed in male enlisted billets. Your brother probably violated unit policy and you just didnt realize it.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

When I was at Ft. Hood, females weren't allowed in male enlisted billets. Your brother probably violated unit policy and you just didnt realize it.

No. I looked it up. There are several Army bases that allow females to be in male enlisted barracks during the day and vice versa. (As I've said, they can't stay overnight.)

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=A0LEVva.N1VT7kwAj2sPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?qid=20100606003607AAmepgU

It is generally up to the commander of the base at the time as to whether it is allowed or not. This is just like the policy of the Navy. It is up to the base CO for us. And there are plenty of soldiers who confirm this. The only commands I know of that have a strict no opposite sex visitors policy that doesn't depend on the CO is training commands. It is considered a quality of life improvement because it is unrealistic to expect service members to not have friends or family members of the opposite sex and for them to not want to spend time with their loved ones even on base, including seeing where they live. But there is also the fact that why should a servicemember be kept from having a person of the opposite sex in their room to play games or watch movies with, even during the middle of the day? Sure, they could be having sex, but it is less likely to happen with a roommate and they are adults if they don't have a roommate.

But I was there even while they were mustering, right in front of his chain of command and they didn't say anything about me being there. They all knew I was there and who I was visiting. And I know I signed in to be in my husband's room at K Bay in Hawaii.
 
Ok: allow NCO's and certain officers to carry sidearms. ;)
There is ni need to overeact to the very very VERY occasional instances of armed attacks on military installations. No need for 'special' rules. I'd say this can be solved by allowing Soldiers to exercise their Constitutional right to carry a concealed firearm legally. Military installations arent different from civilian installations. Those intent on violating the law will. Law abiding citizens are and will be law abiding citizens.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Unlike the civilian world, really this is about a soldier doing their basic job, General Order #1. Gun-free-zones are prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and conduct.


I dont think thats all that different from the Civ world.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

No. I looked it up. There are several Army bases that allow females to be in male enlisted barracks during the day and vice versa. (As I've said, they can't stay overnight.)

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=A0LEVva.N1VT7kwAj2sPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?qid=20100606003607AAmepgU

It is generally up to the commander of the base at the time as to whether it is allowed or not. This is just like the policy of the Navy. It is up to the base CO for us. And there are plenty of soldiers who confirm this. The only commands I know of that have a strict no opposite sex visitors policy that doesn't depend on the CO is training commands. It is considered a quality of life improvement because it is unrealistic to expect service members to not have friends or family members of the opposite sex and for them to not want to spend time with their loved ones even on base, including seeing where they live. But there is also the fact that why should a servicemember be kept from having a person of the opposite sex in their room to play games or watch movies with, even during the middle of the day? Sure, they could be having sex, but it is less likely to happen with a roommate and they are adults if they don't have a roommate.

But I was there even while they were mustering, right in front of his chain of command and they didn't say anything about me being there. They all knew I was there and who I was visiting. And I know I signed in to be in my husband's room at K Bay in Hawaii.

Yahoo.answers isn't a source.
 
There is ni need to overeact to the very very VERY occasional instances of armed attacks on military installations. No need for 'special' rules. I'd say this can be solved by allowing Soldiers to exercise their Constitutional right to carry a concealed firearm legally. Military installations arent different from civilian installations. Those intent on violating the law will. Law abiding citizens are and will be law abiding citizens.

I strongly disagree that military installations aren't different than civilian installations. On most installations, the average response time of emergency personnel of any kind will be much faster than the average response time within civilian communities, when speaking of something like a school shooting or a theater shooting or mall shooting. And military installations are controlled for a reason. There is plenty of classified information on those bases. And not everyone onbase is military. There are plenty of civilians who are given access to bases, including family members, civilian workers, contractors, and even guests of military members and their families. Some bases are even open to the public for certain events (for instance, every year Kaneohe Bay MCB in Hawaii is opened up partially to the public for an event that last for 3-5 days around the 4th of July called Bay Fest). Do you allow everyone to open carry aboard bases and hope for the best despite having that classified material/information onbase?

Heck, we are limited on where and what kind of cell phones we can have on some bases or parts of bases (I have to switch phones once a year so that mine doesn't get confiscated or worse because most cell phones cannot be bought without a camera in them but we also have to have one with us for communication purposes). Why would anyone think that allowing people (either everyone or only military members) to carry guns on a military base was a good idea? I'm all for people carrying them more in public, in the civilian world. And I'm not against military members owning guns, even those who live onbase owning guns that they can sign in and out leaving base if they wish, but just carrying them on military bases is a bad idea. Many military members who have actually been involved with base security would tell you this. There is little chance that allowing this would have really stopped or prevented either of the shootings at Fort Hood (and very little chance at all it would have made any difference for the Norfolk ship shooting).

There are plenty of things different on a military base. Even tickets onbase are different. (Ticketing/arresting anyone on base involves rules that change depending on whether the person being ticketed/arrested is military or civilian.) And you can be searched at any time while on a military installation, unlike out in the civilian world. By coming on base, you are agreeing to restricting some of your rights.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Yahoo.answers isn't a source.

It proves that there are others who are saying that "yes, opposite sex people are allowed to visit Army barracks rooms". You have yet to provide anything except your personal experience, which I have easily accounted for as either outdated or simply policy of that commander of the base at the time you were there. Commanders change every so many years, and many policies change with them.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

It proves that there are others who are saying that "yes, opposite sex people are allowed to visit Army barracks rooms". You have yet to provide anything except your personal experience, which I have easily accounted for as either outdated or simply policy of that commander of the base at the time you were there. Commanders change every so many years, and many policies change with them.

And, we don't have a clue who, or what these people are.

Look, there are reasons that females aren't allowed in male quarters: one, is safety, for both the male and the female. If there are no females in the male only areas, their won't be any inappropriate conduct around said female, she can't get raped and no male soldier can be accused of sexual harassment, rape, or attempted rape. Second, is security; no one really knows who this non-resident female is. She might lift someone's personal affects. In that regard, that's why no civilians are typically allowed in any living quarters, not even soldiers from other units for the most part. That's just basic barracks security.

Just because your brother's chain of command was to weak and unprofessional to keep strangers out of their soldiers's living quarters doesn't mean that it's the norm; far from it in fact. Had your brother been in my unit, your butt would have been hanging out in the day-room and if you, or your brother had a problem with that, you could carry your self off post and he would be counciled as to what unit policy is, means and how it's to executed.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

And, we don't have a clue who, or what these people are.

Look, there are reasons that females aren't allowed in male quarters: one, is safety, for both the male and the female. If there are no females in the male only areas, their won't be any inappropriate conduct around said female, she can't get raped and no male soldier can be accused of sexual harassment, rape, or attempted rape. Second, is security; no one really knows who this non-resident female is. She might lift someone's personal affects. In that regard, that's why no civilians are typically allowed in any living quarters, not even soldiers from other units for the most part. That's just basic barracks security.

Just because your brother's chain of command was to weak and unprofessional to keep strangers out of their soldiers's living quarters doesn't mean that it's the norm; far from it in fact. Had your brother been in my unit, your butt would have been hanging out in the day-room and if you, or your brother had a problem with that, you could carry your self off post and he would be counciled as to what unit policy is, means and how it's to executed.

Except many places do allow them in the rooms. You are basing your answers off of your personal experience, and, as I've said, it is outdated.

The incidents you describe can happen anywhere or with anyone. A woman or a man can claim someone came onto them falsely or someone can try to sexually assault someone else. If it were security, as you described, then male visitors wouldn't be allowed either. But it isn't true. I can bring up the rules for several Army bases and their barracks if you wish.

Hey look I found the Fort Hood policy on it.

http://www.hood.army.mil/dpw/Housing/Files/CSM-02.pdf

Would you like other bases?
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Except many places do allow them in the rooms. You are basing your answers off of your personal experience, and, as I've said, it is outdated.

The incidents you describe can happen anywhere or with anyone. A woman or a man can claim someone came onto them falsely or someone can try to sexually assault someone else. If it were security, as you described, then male visitors wouldn't be allowed either. But it isn't true. I can bring up the rules for several Army bases and their barracks if you wish.

Hey look I found the Fort Hood policy on it.

http://www.hood.army.mil/dpw/Housing/Files/CSM-02.pdf

Would you like other bases?

From your source:

As soldiers are assigned to their barracks room area, the chain of command has an inherent responsibility to ensure proper living standards and conditions are maintained. As such, leaders must be involved to the degree necessary. There are no arbitrary limits to this involvement...

Which means local commands can set whatever barracks regulations and restrictions they want. 99% of the time, battalion commanders will make billets off limits to personel of the opposite gender for safety and security reasons; which will most likely be the case.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

From your source:



Which means local commands can set whatever barracks regulations and restrictions they want. 99% of the time, battalion commanders will make billets off limits to personel of the opposite gender for safety and security reasons; which will most likely be the case.

I have said this whole time that it is based on the commanders' policy, which they set. Even Fort Hood's current policy is that opposite sex visitors are allowed.

And from my source:

g. Visitation and Quiet time: With limited restrictions, Soldiers residing in the barracks may have visitors of either gender.

You want to prove that "99%" thing, feel free. I've proven that it is not true for Fort Hood. That shows that there is at least one Army base (and that happens to be the one we were discussing the most here) allows opposite sex visitors in barracks rooms. Now you need to show that the vast majority of the other Army bases (excluding training commands) restrict them.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

I have said this whole time that it is based on the commanders' policy, which they set. Even Fort Hood's current policy is that opposite sex visitors are allowed.

And from my source:

g. Visitation and Quiet time: With limited restrictions, Soldiers residing in the barracks may have visitors of either gender.

You want to prove that "99%" thing, feel free. I've proven that it is not true for Fort Hood. That shows that there is at least one Army base (and that happens to be the one we were discussing the most here) allows opposite sex visitors in barracks rooms. Now you need to show that the vast majority of the other Army bases (excluding training commands) restrict them.

A brigade, battalion, or company commander can always upgrade the division commanders orders. Restricting visitation to the barracks, which your source clearly gives latitude to do, would be upgrading the division commander's policy. You're supposed to be in the military; you know that orders, policies and standards can be upgraded, but never downgraded.

As a member of the service, you should realize the liability that a commander would be opening himself up to, if he allowed females to come and go in t barracks. What if a troop comes out of the shower, dick swingin' and the female visitor sees him? What if she starts screaming sexual harassment, or attempted rape?
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

A brigade, battalion, or company commander can always upgrade the division commanders orders. Restricting visitation to the barracks, which your source clearly gives latitude to do, would be upgrading the division commander's policy. You're supposed to be in the military; you know that orders, policies and standards can be upgraded, but never downgraded.

As a member of the service, you should realize the liability that a commander would be opening himself up to, if he allowed females to come and go in t barracks. What if a troop comes out of the shower, dick swingin' and the female visitor sees him? What if she starts screaming sexual harassment, or attempted rape?

What I realize is that you are trying to avoid the point made, that yes, many barracks allow visitors of the opposite sex, even in the Army.

I've been in. I know what's its like. And these barracks are like two person dorm rooms now (in fact, that is the complete goal of every branch when it comes to berthing for service members, and what I have seen, it is why geobachelors have become basically non-existent, so that barracks rooms only have 1 or 2 people per room). And the policy is that roommates get a say in visitors. So there wouldn't really be an issue of someone dick swingin' in front of a female visitor because he would know she was there to begin with. And if not, and the roommate brought the girl in and his roommate was in the shower or just the head, and she tried to make a claim of rape or sexual harassment with him right there it wouldn't go so well unless the guy bringing the girl in was a complete douche to his roommate to begin with. And it can happen no matter where the person is or what gender. You are trying to find reasons why they don't, and although those have been used in the past for such reasoning, it is not the general policy now for most places because they realize that a policy of not allowing visitors of the opposite sex isn't likely to deter such things from happening in any significant way.

I was allowed to change into and out of uniform in the same area as the guys I worked with while in the Navy. It wasn't an issue.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

What I realize is that you are trying to avoid the point made, that yes, many barracks allow visitors of the opposite sex, even in the Army.


I've been in. I know what's its like. And these barracks are like two person dorm rooms now (in fact, that is the complete goal of every branch when it comes to berthing for service members, and what I have seen, it is why geobachelors have become basically non-existent, so that barracks rooms only have 1 or 2 people per room). And the policy is that roommates get a say in visitors. So there wouldn't really be an issue of someone dick swingin' in front of a female visitor because he would know she was there to begin with. And if not, and the roommate brought the girl in and his roommate was in the shower or just the head, and she tried to make a claim of rape or sexual harassment with him right there it wouldn't go so well unless the guy bringing the girl in was a complete douche to his roommate to begin with. And it can happen no matter where the person is or what gender. You are trying to find reasons why they don't, and although those have been used in the past for such reasoning, it is not the general policy now for most places because they realize that a policy of not allowing visitors of the opposite sex isn't likely to deter such things from happening in any significant way.

I was allowed to change into and out of uniform in the same area as the guys I worked with while in the Navy. It wasn't an issue.

Barracks policy at Fort Belvoir; note the bolded section:

28. Visitors. Overnight guests are not authorized at any time.
Visitors under the age of 18 are not permitted in individual
rooms or the barracks area unless they are: (1) visiting a
family member, or (2) accompanied by an adult member of their
own family. Visitors are not permitted in individual rooms
unless in the company of the resident assigned to the room.
Guests will not infringe on the privacy of the resident’s
roommate(s). Residents are responsible for the conduct of their
visitors to include liability for any damages incurred.
Visitation privileges can be revoked if they are abused.


http://www.nec.belvoir.army.mil/pubs/Belvoir/Reg/210-13.pdf

Chances are, visitation privileges have been revoked for years There's NO order or policy that requires visitation by members of the opposite sex to be allowed and in most barracks, it's not allowed.

You can't allow people to come into the barracks, willy-nilly for security and safety reasons and doing so isn't the norm.
 
Re: Source: Active shooter at Fort Hood

Barracks policy at Fort Belvoir; note the bolded section:

Chances are, visitation privileges have been revoked for years There's NO order or policy that requires visitation by members of the opposite sex to be allowed and in most barracks, it's not allowed.

You can't allow people to come into the barracks, willy-nilly for security and safety reasons and doing so isn't the norm.

You are still grasping here. No one is talking about abusing the policy. And in fact, I've never claimed that visitors of either gender did not have to check in somewhere (I in fact mentioned it before that I had to sign in to go to my husband's barracks when he was still a Marine living on K-Bay, and we were only dating at the time). Nor have I said there is some sort of right to have any visitors. And I've pretty much stated this whole time that most do not allow overnight visitors. So far, you have not proven that most bases barracks (specifically Army) do not allow opposite sex visitors.

I have said that many bases allow opposite sex visitors to the barracks, that is all. I have not said it can't be revoked or limited or that all places must allow them. I am contending though that the majority of non-training commands have a policy for allowing opposite sex visitors to the barracks and that is why it was strange that a husband would have to sneak his wife into his barracks room (which is strange for a married person to have to begin with on a base in the US).
 
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