• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.latim

Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

AJiveMan said:
What makes this spill significant is that the oil has the consistency of STP. If nobody knows what I'm talking about, it's a more slippery sticky oil than that of lumpy crude oil. It'll be more difficult to clean up. I like those words, clean up. We know they'll never get all of it up, just like any oil spill in water.
Click to expand...

What they don't clean up, biodegrades just like any other natural product. Its actually more excelerated in the Gulf of Mexico due to the large quantity of natural seeps.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
As someone else pointed out, why not use the energy that used to make the hydrogen to directly power the ship? The other thing is that how will they store it? Hydrogen takes a lot of room. The next thing is that not only is a lot of energy used to produce the hydrogen, there is still a lot of energy needed to synthesize it into hydrocarbons. It's very difficult for me to see at this point how this process can be made efficient.
Click to expand...
No one is talking about storing hydrogen, The hydrogen is just a process to create hydrocarbon fuels.
The articles said the conversion efficiencies are about 60%.
The alternate energies available, sun, wind, tides, ect, tend to be low density, or time sensitive.
The energy is there, just not when and where you need it.
If we can store and accumulate this low density energy into a storage medium we are already
equipped to handle, we will be way ahead of any other alternative energy system.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
Yeah, but natural gas is a hydrocarbon. So you are back to dependence on hydrocarbons which are finite and therefore not sustainable in the long run.
Click to expand...
You are not getting it, We are creating the natural gas(mostly methane)
from water, atmospheric CO2, and energy.
It is only limited by our ability to produce the energy.
look at it this way, a gallon of gasoline contains about 33 kwh of energy,
the conversion efficiency of this process is said to be 60%, so it would take
about 55 kwh of electricity to make a gallon of gasoline.
Lets assume for the sake of discussion someone installs the following system.
SolarEdge Solar Power System - 30 SolarWorld Solar Panels
They say it produces 1060 kwh per month.
Let's say the homeowner uses 500 kwh per month, putting 560 kwh into the grid.
That 560 kwh could produce 10 gallons of gasoline, or some number of cubic feet of natural gas.
Up North, it may be that the extra power makes natural gas in the summer, for winter heating.
In the mid west, the extra might make diesel for tractors.
Homes around airports, might sell their extra energy to make jet fuel.
This may not be a perfect energy storage solution, but is better than any thing else
out there right now.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

longview said:
No one is talking about storing hydrogen, The hydrogen is just a process to create hydrocarbon fuels.
The articles said the conversion efficiencies are about 60%.
The alternate energies available, sun, wind, tides, ect, tend to be low density, or time sensitive.
The energy is there, just not when and where you need it.
If we can store and accumulate this low density energy into a storage medium we are already
equipped to handle, we will be way ahead of any other alternative energy system.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I don't understand the process as well as you do, but don't they have to store the hydrogen first, before they synthesize it?
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

longview said:
You are not getting it, We are creating the natural gas(mostly methane)
from water, atmospheric CO2, and energy.
It is only limited by our ability to produce the energy.
look at it this way, a gallon of gasoline contains about 33 kwh of energy,
the conversion efficiency of this process is said to be 60%, so it would take
about 55 kwh of electricity to make a gallon of gasoline.
Lets assume for the sake of discussion someone installs the following system.
SolarEdge Solar Power System - 30 SolarWorld Solar Panels
They say it produces 1060 kwh per month.
Let's say the homeowner uses 500 kwh per month, putting 560 kwh into the grid.
That 560 kwh could produce 10 gallons of gasoline, or some number of cubic feet of natural gas.
Up North, it may be that the extra power makes natural gas in the summer, for winter heating.
In the mid west, the extra might make diesel for tractors.
Homes around airports, might sell their extra energy to make jet fuel.
This may not be a perfect energy storage solution, but is better than any thing else
out there right now.
Click to expand...

I understand it's being created. But the point was that you need a source energy to create it. In other words you need a source for the electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from the water. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought you were putting forward the notion of using natural gas as the source.

If I have something wrong here, please correct me.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
Perhaps I don't understand the process as well as you do, but don't they have to store the hydrogen first, before they synthesize it?
Click to expand...
From my understanding, the hydrogen only exists for moments during the process.
The Navy's unit fit on a skid 3' X 5' X 5'.
Storing green electricity as natural gas - Press Release May 5 2010
The first articles about this process, were talking about putting units outside homes,
and net metering natural gas meters in Germany.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

Fishstyx said:
What they don't clean up, biodegrades just like any other natural product. Its actually more excelerated in the Gulf of Mexico due to the large quantity of natural seeps.
Click to expand...

How long does it take to biodegrade? Speaking of, since it seems like you know something about it, what's the deal with the biodegradation of plastics? Is it different from the biodegradation of oil, and if so why?
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
I understand it's being created. But the point was that you need a source energy to create it. In other words you need a source for the electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from the water. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought you were putting forward the notion of using natural gas as the source.

If I have something wrong here, please correct me.
Click to expand...

I am talking about using excess energy from solar and wind to create man made hydrocarbons,
as a method of storing that energy for later use.
This method of storage would also allow the accumulation of low density energy,
in a high density form. (you cannot really run a jet on solar panels)
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

longview said:
I am talking about using excess energy from solar and wind to create man made hydrocarbons,
as a method of storing that energy for later use.
This method of storage would also allow the accumulation of low density energy,
in a high density form. (you cannot really run a jet on solar panels)
Click to expand...

Ok. I understand.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
Ain't nothing wrong with a little hard work. Hard work is good for a man. Keeps you fit and strong. Just think instead of people having to spend all that time working out, they could simply plow the fields and stay as fit as a fiddle.
Click to expand...

I tell you what. Go back in time to those hard working men and give them the choice of walking behind a plow or sitting on a tractor and see what they think.

Oh, and if it wasn't for fighting over oil, we would be fighting over something else.

Lastly, you mentioned steam as a possible replacement for oil, it's difficult to lubricate things with steam.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

MildSteel said:
How long does it take to biodegrade? Speaking of, since it seems like you know something about it, what's the deal with the biodegradation of plastics? Is it different from the biodegradation of oil, and if so why?
Click to expand...

Biodegredation time varies based on location, weather, and product. The Gulf is actually one of the world's location where oil biodegrades rapidly. Its hot and there are lots of oil eating micro-organisms in the region.

As far as plastics versus oil. Pretty simple really. This spill is marine fuel oil which is a heavy fuel oil. When crude is refined, its separates into the various products. LPG on top to asphalt and waxes on the bottom. Heavy fuel is near the bottom but its still just a portion of crude.

Plastics are a next level processing beyond basic refining (which is mainly a heat operation similar to distilling). Plastics require polymization which is a chemical reaction. This additonal process takes natural raw materials even further away from their natural state, hence harder to biodegrade.

Honestly, the biggest issue invovling this spill is the shutting down of the Houston channel for several days. You're talking millions of dollars of lost commerce revenue.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

rjay said:
September 29: The Tesoro Logistics LP pipeline spill was the biggest leak in North Dakota since 1 million barrels of salt water brine, a byproduct of oil production, leaked from a well site in 2006.

March 29: Exxon Mobil's Mayflower pipeline ruptured in a suburban neighborhood in Arkansas, forcing residents from homes. It spilled some 5,000 to 7,000 barrels of heavy crude from Canada.

June 2012: Enbridge Inc shut its 345,000 barrels per day Athabasca pipeline after 1,400 barrels of oil spilled in Northeast Alberta. The line was quickly restarted after the company bypassed a pump station.

July, 2011: Exxon Mobil's Silvertip pipeline leaked 1,500 barrels of crude into the Yellowstone River after heavy flooding in the region.

July 25, 2010: Enbridge Inc's 41-year-old 6B pipeline ruptured in Michigan, leaking 19,500 barrels of crude, of which about 8,500 spilled into the Kalamazoo River. The accident on the pipeline owned by the Calgary-based company was the largest onland oil spill in U.S. history and environmentalists complained it left lasting damage to the river. Regulators kept the line shut for more than eight weeks. The accident was one of three outages that summer for Enbridge, raising questions about the safety of pumping Canadian crude through the United States.

-----------------------------------

It takes a lot of digging and trucking away, to clean up a land spill. There are ground water concerns, not to mention swamps, rivers creeks, farmland and forests.

I don't know that inland spills are easier to clean than spills in the ocean. It would depend, I would think, on where the spill happens and how easy it is to access it with the proper equipment.

The bottom line is that there is no safe way to transport oil, but transport it we must. Overall, pipeline may be the safest, I will leave that one to experts.

One thing for sure, regardless of how the product is moved from the fields, to the refinerys and onward, the methods must be regulated. The safer oil and its by-products are being handled the better for us all.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the research.

All those added together do not add to 1/10th of just the Exxon disaster. We use oil. The question is what the safest way to transport it and not either there is perfection or all gasoline and diesel stations are closed.

The advantage of a land spill is that it stays where it is and can be removed. The massive offshore disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is a mass of enormous what is essentially huge soft tar flows moving about the bottom that can not be removed in any way nor does it stay in the same locations. Rather, the enormous patches are massive kill-all fields moving about the Gulf.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

joko104 said:
Rather, the enormous patches are massive kill-all fields moving about the Gulf.
Click to expand...

The main reason they're "kill-all" is that the microorganisms feeding on the oil create an anaerobic environment. Fortunately, its temperary cause when the oil is gone, they stop using up all the O2.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

The fact is, there is no choice between pipelines and shipping. The pipelines are often being used to get the product to a place it can be shipped from. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part the choice is between pipelines and rail.

Which of these is safer? That too is a big question mark.

The reality is we live in a world that runs on oil. Those who have it are going to find a way to get it to those who want it. All we can really do is try to make whatever method is chosen as safe as possible. There are going to be environmental disasters. That is just a fact of life. The best we can hope for is to keep these disasters to a minimum.
 
Re: Oil spill blocks Houston ship channel, threatens wildlife preserves http://www.l

joko104 said:
Yeah, but at least it's not a pipeline!!! The Alaska pipeline had destroyed that entire region with leaks!!

Oh, wait, that never happened. BUT tanker ships IS the Obama demand. No pipelines, just tankers.
Click to expand...

Where do you think the Exxon Valdez filled its tanks? From the Alaska pipeline. You are wrong if you think that pipeline hasn't leaked a lot of oil.

In recent years, about 500 oil spills have occurred in the Prudhoe Bay oil fields and along the 800-mile pipeline each year, according to the Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation, even though the daily "throughput" of oil has declined from about 2 million barrels a day in 1987 to less than half that today. Most leaks are minor, quickly detected, and remedied.

But in March, the largest leak in North Slope production history – as many as 267,000 gallons – poured out of a corroded pipeline at the Prudhoe Bay complex for five days before being discovered. Since then, US EPA investigators have been seeking to determine whether BP violated the federal Clean Water Act by failing to prevent corrosion in the ruptured line. If it did, criminal charges could follow.
Click to expand...
Leak is latest of Alaska's pipeline woes - CSMonitor.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom