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Judge strikes down Michigan's ban on gay marriage[W:95]

Yeah, you cannot identify in any way how it will affect you either...and again remember, we are not base running here.:lamo :peace

A ban prevents me from marrying a man. The fact that I have no desire to do so is irrelevant. Much in the same way a gun ban affects me despite my not currently owning a gun. But I already wrote this, and you ignored it before, so I expect two pages from now you'll make this claim again.
 
Please point out where I said anything of the sort.

Rights guaranteed in the Constitution, while they may certainly be amended in some cases, though not the inalienable ones, are not up for a vote. I will ask you to mention which rights that you feel that I would think should be up for a vote.

The right to equal protection of the laws as stated in the 14th amendment.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

While you are looking for where I might have said what you say I said, might you also show me where I would find that [ in red above ] in our beloved Constitution? I am curious, point me in the right direction, please.

Same place. It is called "due process". I recommend you read the Constitution past the 10th amendment. There have been some developments in the last 200 years.
 
I think it does affect the thousands of children raised by same sex couples in the state of Michigan.



The problem with making these kinds of arguments is it throws your personal morality and ability to reason into question. You are basically saying the only argument YOU can make against those situations are "gays can't do it".

Children cannot consent to sexual activity with an adult and for all the same reasons we would not allow children to serve on a jury, drive a car, enter a contract, buy alcohol, and any other number of reasons that relate to their ability to make decisions, we will not allow them to marry. But the fact that you clearly did not understand that yourself, makes you look pretty...bad.

But please continue to make arguments like those. It does help the gay rights movement quite a bit when people see the level of reasoning your side is capable.
That is questionable, extremely questionable. You, being on that side, may feel that it is the same, that there are no provable, discernible differences between SS and OS couples' children and their development... but we don't really know, perhaps the repercussions will not be felt for a generation, maybe more. Just like climate change, current snapshots are not necessarily the best way to analyze medium to long term effects. For instance, we now know that the benefits of access at age 4 to the much praised and promulgated Head Start program are largely absent by First grade. You are willing to play Russian Roulette with these children's lives and with our society, I am not quite that nationally suicidal.

Oh, and lets get off the silly calls into question bull fecal "stuff"... using that style of low silliness calls into question one's actual debating ability as well as the capacity for actual critical thinking. Nice attempt at a dodge, tho, disparage contentions you cannot really counter. Too clever by half, but maybe less. Your facile attempt was just that.

Next, its more than disingenuous to put forth something you indicate as being my "only argument". Hard to debate civilly with someone that insolently presumptuous... and that wrong. There are myriad "arguments". Going against nature, going against all established religious practices [ against the wisdom of the ages, empirical evidence ], a tyranny of the minority over the majority, going against the people's will and our ability to determine what is allowable and not in our own culture, SSM being absolutely unnecessary... well, you would get the idea, if you really wanted to, but I think you consciously turn away.

As was itemized in another recent post of mine in this thread, all that rationality you present with regard to children...all can be erased, changed by a stroke of a pen, a judgement of an activist judge with the subsequent precedent, many things could go, and go rapidly, from rational to the irrational, proven by very the fact that, here we are, 2014, currently arguing whether same sexes should be able to marry one another. How rational is that... and you seem convinced you are on the right side. Ten years from now, if you folks get your way, I will be reminiscing about how I predicted that children will be allowed to serve on a juries, drive a car, marry, whatever... you haven't a clue, nor seemingly a care, as to what Pandoras you will be releasing upon us all.

Oh, and thank you, I most dedicatedly will continue to make the good, the rational arguments, allow folks such as yourself to be seen to constantly attempting to dodge them, then fading as you flail away, following down a newly discovered path of social deviance.
 
This was already answered. Read the responses to your posts or just stop posting entirely.

And same-sex marriage bans do affect me. They prevent me from marrying a man. That I do not choose to exercise such a right is irrelevant. Much in the way a gun ban affects me despite my not owning a gun.
So wrong, wow, lol...

And truly, if you don't like my posts [yet you seem addicted ] just ignore them, most assuredly will not hurt my feelings...but to be so asinine as to attempt to tell me what I should do, well, shows a level of maturity that is probably a bit less than sufficient, would you not agree? If its getting to you that much that you cannot win, that you are just not that convincing, or persuasive, give it a rest.

I certainly understand you have the harder task, an uphill battle, being on the wrong side of the issue and having to defend it.
 
That is questionable, extremely questionable. You, being on that side, may feel that it is the same, that there are no provable, discernible differences between SS and OS couples' children and their development... but we don't really know, perhaps the repercussions will not be felt for a generation, maybe more. Just like climate change, current snapshots are not necessarily the best way to analyze medium to long term effects. For instance, we now know that the benefits of access at age 4 to the much praised and promulgated Head Start program are largely absent by First grade. You are willing to play Russian Roulette with these children's lives and with our society, I am not quite that nationally suicidal.

What the hell are you talking about? Children are ALREADY being raised by same sex couples in all 50 states. The question is not whether or not same sex couples can raise children, but whether or not the kids will have better family stability if their parents are allowed to marry. What right do you have to deprive children raised by same sex couples the family stabilizing benefits of marriage?

Next, its more than disingenuous to put forth something you indicate as being my "only argument". Hard to debate civilly with someone that insolently presumptuous... and that wrong. There are myriad "arguments". Going against nature, going against all established religious practices [ against the wisdom of the ages, empirical evidence ], a tyranny of the minority over the majority, going against the people's will and our ability to determine what is allowable and not in our own culture, SSM being absolutely unnecessary... well, you would get the idea, if you really wanted to, but I think you consciously turn away.

Every state has the right to govern marriage as it sees fit, provided it does not violate the Constitutional rights of citizens. All the cases you mentioned were fair means by which the people could govern marriage and should, but bans against same sex marriage advance no legitimate state interest and infringe on the Constitutional rights of same sex couples. Your weak attempt to go down the slippery slope is logically fallacious because of the obvious fact that same sex couples are not the SAME as pedophiles, zoophiles, and polygamists. There are distinct differences which you deliberately choose to ignore in order to make the argument sound sensible in your own mind.

As was itemized in another recent post of mine in this thread, all that rationality you present with regard to children...all can be erased, changed by a stroke of a pen, a judgement of an activist judge with the subsequent precedent, many things could go, and go rapidly, from rational to the irrational, proven by very the fact that, here we are, 2014, currently arguing whether same sexes should be able to marry one another. How rational is that... and you seem convinced you are on the right side. Ten years from now, if you folks get your way, I will be reminiscing about how I predicted that children will be allowed to serve on a juries, drive a car, marry, whatever... you haven't a clue, nor seemingly a care, as to what Pandoras you will be releasing upon us all.

Wrong. No single judge in this land has any such power. At best it will go before a state judge, and then a state appeals court, and then a state Supreme Court, and then a federal court, and then a federal appeals court, and then the Supreme Court. It will be argued over and over and over again before dozens of judges before it gets anywhere near a final decision. Once again, go learn about Due Process. It is one of your Constitutional rights, so I would think you would know something of it.
 
So wrong, wow, lol...

And truly, if you don't like my posts [yet you seem addicted ] just ignore them, most assuredly will not hurt my feelings...but to be so asinine as to attempt to tell me what I should do, well, shows a level of maturity that is probably a bit less than sufficient, would you not agree? If its getting to you that much that you cannot win, that you are just not that convincing, or persuasive, give it a rest.

I certainly understand you have the harder task, an uphill battle, being on the wrong side of the issue and having to defend it.

and yet every post you made has failed and been destroyed

have you support your failed arguments with any facts yet? even once?

have you answered how equal rights for gays effete you yet?

Seems "the wrong" side as you call it is winning and in real life and destroying your posts her lol

Let us know when this changes
 
Protected classes don't get carte blanche. If they think they do, or if it even came close, we would need a wholesale recalibration society, a reset at normal. We are getting to the point of complete ridiculousness here, this is like a comedy show.

.

Gays dont want 'carte blanche,' they want the same thing that straight couples have.

Is marriage ridiculous for straight people? If no, then it's not ridiculous for gays. Also, there are not great changes to infrastructure or society to make this happen....gays already reproduce, have families, participate in society, etc. in the same ways that straight couples do.

There is **no real change**....only legal accommodations that are FAIR....EQUAL.
 
Of course the courts have their place... they do not, however, supersede the will of the people on fundamental cultural constructs. They can tinker at the edges, at least until they become a roadblock to the will of the people. They, because of their position, do not become the new kings who make the people's will inferior.

I would say all those laws you indicated that we would still have, and in some cases still have, did not have the majority supporting them when they were pushed to the side. There are lines to be drawn, red lines that folks do want adhered to, not the boobama style red lines. And even with all that history of injustice, that does not mean your side is right because we overcame injustice, real injustice, in the past. This is merely silliness, me me me-ness, that will fade as rapidly as it came up.

Just because you are in the minority does not in any way mean you get to make the decisions for the rest of us... that is foolishness. The Constitution, nor the courts, were meant to do that, they were meant to protect your individual rights and allow you the freedom to say what you want, not to just do anything you want. That is simply an absurd analysis of our governing framework.

One person's morals are not necessarily equivalent to another's. Newbie smarts rarely equates to the wisdom of the ages.

You cannot seriously see that this entire 'argument' (and I use that term loosely)....applied to interracial marriage in its time?

Word for word.
 
Counting your turkeys way before they are hatched.

As those younger currently thinking SSM is okay become adults they start thinking more clearly, like adults. They generally become more conservative. Especially after they realize the line of bull they have been force fed in school, in media and now by government... and should that not happen, wow, what a wonderfully mixed up and predictably war torn world this is soon to become. Once family stability breaks down here completely, once nobody cares much about anything worth caring about anymore, once the weakness that your side's termites are constantly eating away at our foundations to create becomes apparent to the predators out there in the world... and they are out there, waiting... well, we will see if you get to keep your cherished SSM then.

Once you have chased all the strong away, nursed the rest into being namby pambies, the nation will be ripe for the picking. Yes, no doubt in your lifetime... if the quickening pace that is apparent in just this lifetime does not slow down. That would be unfortunate, yet poetic justice.

ROFLMAO...are you basing your assessment of Americans more and more accepting SSM on that it's younger people supporting it?

Ha ha ha ha. Not around here. Many people over 50, even 40, remember the civil rights movement and the fight for women's rights in the 70's. We are on the side of equality for gays too.
 
Oh, I understand what you are saying, but you see, as a society we, many of us, don't want that kind of nothing matters above anything els sort of world. Some things aren't equal, are not meant to be equal, some things just should not be. Maybe we, as a nation, will at some point agree to allow this outrage, but not while we have the strength to support a strong nation.

Not while I can help it. ;) :peace

You have yet to show how it 'matters' at all. You have offered no harm at all... to you or marriage.

You dont like it....that's it so far.
 
The right to equal protection of the laws as stated in the 14th amendment.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


Ahh, very nice, however inadequate, prestidigitational attempt at slipping in something that seemingly makes your case, but something I did not ask for. Remember? What I asked was you to provide proof of your claim, what you incorrectly misstated that you said I said.

You said,
Your argument is that Constutional rights should be up for a vote.
Now, I ask again, please go back and provide me with the instance in which I argued that... you cannot, it does not exist, I never made the claim you said I did. Then you tried to make it seem like I had denied the 14th amendment. Busted. One major Naughty compounded by another Naughty.

Both at best disingenuous.

Same place. It is called "due process". I recommend you read the Constitution past the 10th amendment. There have been some developments in the last 200 years.
Nice, smarmy post. I am quite familiar with our Constitution, obviously a bit more than yourself... Proof of an instance of proven awareness, you ask perhaps? I quoted that very same passage of the 14th myself, much earlier in the thread...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...igans-ban-gay-marriage-32.html#post1063065356

Let me know if you ever really want to, you know, actually debate something.
 
Oh, I understand what you are saying, but you see, as a society we, many of us, don't want that kind of nothing matters above anything else sort of world. Some things aren't equal, are not meant to be equal, some things just should not be. Maybe we, as a nation, will at some point agree to allow this outrage, but not while we have the strength to support a strong nation.

Not while I can help it. ;) :peace


You have yet to show how it 'matters' at all. You have offered no harm at all... to you or marriage.

You dont like it....that's it so far.

for PAGES AND PAGES

the question has been asked is there any FACTS that support that failed claim and is there and facts that show how equal rights hurts anybody.

This question has been ignored over and over and this wont change
 
That is questionable, extremely questionable. You, being on that side, may feel that it is the same, that there are no provable, discernible differences between SS and OS couples' children and their development... but we don't really know, perhaps the repercussions will not be felt for a generation, maybe more. Just like climate change, current snapshots are not necessarily the best way to analyze medium to long term effects. For instance, we now know that the benefits of access at age 4 to the much praised and promulgated Head Start program are largely absent by First grade. You are willing to play Russian Roulette with these children's lives and with our society, I am not quite that nationally suicidal.
.


This has absolutely nothing to do with SSM. These families exist now and will continue to do so. THey have done so in the face of public abuse and legal discrimination. Gay families HAVE BEEN and will continue to be part of American society. They arent going anywhere.

However you CHOOSE to deny them the same benefits and legal protections that are accorded to straight couples and families. And can prove zero harm why you believe that's acceptable? blech, you make me ashamed to be a Christian. Many of these protections extend to their children.
 
So wrong, wow, lol...

And truly, if you don't like my posts [yet you seem addicted ] just ignore them, most assuredly will not hurt my feelings...but to be so asinine as to attempt to tell me what I should do, well, shows a level of maturity that is probably a bit less than sufficient, would you not agree? If its getting to you that much that you cannot win, that you are just not that convincing, or persuasive, give it a rest.

I certainly understand you have the harder task, an uphill battle, being on the wrong side of the issue and having to defend it.

You completely ignored that he answered the question....that not allowing SSM does affect him...it DENIES him the same privileges and protections of marriage by not allowing him to marry a man. So the ban DOES affect him...and millions of other Americans.
 
Ahh, very nice, however inadequate, prestidigitational attempt at slipping in something that seemingly makes your case, but something I did not ask for. Remember? What I asked was you to provide proof of your claim, what you incorrectly misstated that you said I said.

You said, Now, I ask again, please go back and provide me with the instance in which I argued that... you cannot, it does not exist, I never made the claim you said I did. Then you tried to make it seem like I had denied the 14th amendment. Busted. One major Naughty compounded by another Naughty.

Both at best disingenuous.

Nice, smarmy post. I am quite familiar with our Constitution, obviously a bit more than yourself... Proof of an instance of proven awareness, you ask perhaps? I quoted that very same passage of the 14th myself, much earlier in the thread...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...igans-ban-gay-marriage-32.html#post1063065356

Let me know if you ever really want to, you know, actually debate something.

Cool. We are on the same page. My 14th amendment right to equal protection under the laws should not be up for a popular vote. Given that Supreme Court precedent in Loving v. Virginia found under the 14th amendment that a state had to demonstrate how a legitimate state interest is advanced before it could regulate marriage in a way that would violate my right to equal protection under the law, I look forward to hearing your argument as to what state interest is advanced.
 
Nothing good ever comes out of ohio i swear....Yet this appeal may result in scotus taking the case so that even shanties in alabama will be forced to allow gay weddings.
 
Gays dont want 'carte blanche,' they want the same thing that straight couples have.

Is marriage ridiculous for straight people? If no, then it's not ridiculous for gays. Also, there are not great changes to infrastructure or society to make this happen....gays already reproduce, have families, participate in society, etc. in the same ways that straight couples do.

There is **no real change**....only legal accommodations that are FAIR....EQUAL.
That is what YOU say... did they make you their spokesperson? I went through the we just want tolerance days.

Marriage is becoming a joke due to liberal policies... marriage has its valid reasons. Society gets to make its choices and no, not everybody just deserves whatever it is they decide to want. You can cry, stamp your feet, whatever you care to do all you want, doesn't make it right.

And if there is NO REAL change, then there is NO REAL reason to change society, to entirely refit its institutions to accommodate the whims of a small minority.
 
You cannot seriously see that this entire 'argument' (and I use that term loosely)....applied to interracial marriage in its time?

Word for word.
Read the thread and previous responses to this question, please. Skin color and gender are not the same argument, no matter how you massage and tweak it.
 
ROFLMAO...are you basing your assessment of Americans more and more accepting SSM on that it's younger people supporting it?

Ha ha ha ha. Not around here. Many people over 50, even 40, remember the civil rights movement and the fight for women's rights in the 70's. We are on the side of equality for gays too.
Yes, some folks never ever even come close to growing up, no matter their age. A lot of us have been for civil rights, women's rights [ within reason, the radicals there often push it a bit too far as well ]...

Your side has its supporters, those of us for maintaining a stable society have ours...
 
You have yet to show how it 'matters' at all. You have offered no harm at all... to you or marriage.

You dont like it....that's it so far.
That is your false premise that I have to show harm. Who do we go to if, say in 20 years, we can document the harm that has already been done? What do you pledge to fix what you have wrought upon the rest of us? What would be your remedy then? All liberals folks supporting SSM immediately leave the country they have, perhaps irreparably, damaged...leaving all their possessions in payment for the harm they have inflicted upon the rest of our society?

No, you will go merrily along finding other ways to create crevices from tiny cracks singing la la la la la when people warn of the dangers.
 
This issue was not invented last week.
Actual states allowance for this travesty is a rather recent occurence... or hadn't you noticed. It was BJ Clinton, democrat and liberal, that signed both DADT and DOMA, correct? What was the boob's position [ I know, I know, that could be either Barack or Joe ] on SSM in 2008...2009...2010...ummm 2011?
 
What the hell are you talking about? Children are ALREADY being raised by same sex couples in all 50 states. The question is not whether or not same sex couples can raise children, but whether or not the kids will have better family stability if their parents are allowed to marry. What right do you have to deprive children raised by same sex couples the family stabilizing benefits of marriage?



Every state has the right to govern marriage as it sees fit, provided it does not violate the Constitutional rights of citizens. All the cases you mentioned were fair means by which the people could govern marriage and should, but bans against same sex marriage advance no legitimate state interest and infringe on the Constitutional rights of same sex couples. Your weak attempt to go down the slippery slope is logically fallacious because of the obvious fact that same sex couples are not the SAME as pedophiles, zoophiles, and polygamists. There are distinct differences which you deliberately choose to ignore in order to make the argument sound sensible in your own mind.



Wrong. No single judge in this land has any such power. At best it will go before a state judge, and then a state appeals court, and then a state Supreme Court, and then a federal court, and then a federal appeals court, and then the Supreme Court. It will be argued over and over and over again before dozens of judges before it gets anywhere near a final decision. Once again, go learn about Due Process. It is one of your Constitutional rights, so I would think you would know something of it.
One cannot retrieve already spilled milk. There will always be the outliers in any system, we do not have to encourage that, promote that... and we have no imperative to do so. You do not solve a problem by compounding it.

You ignore the premise...on purpose no doubt, in and effort to make your feeble argument appear stronger. It is not equating gays to pedos, et al, it is because we have no reason to tear down the strong edifice of the institution of traditional marriage, open the floodgates in which the once solid institution will then be trampled further upon by these others to which we also have no desire to allow marriage. Capiche now, do ya?

When the door has been opened in an effort to make justifiable allowances for past inequities... it is not then to be shoved, pushed further open to allow anybody and everybody, those not justifiable to go through that same door. Sorry, if the law allows/promotes that, it needs fixed. The legitimate state interest test is a farce... almost anything, especially with a further degrading of standards in our society, could eventually pass that test.

So? No single judge is not the premise. You have liberal termites gnawing away at our foundations and one termite judge finally does break through, and then you have precedent, which is hard, almost impossible if we listen to your side on such things, to walk that back. Ha ha ha....see You need to read OUR history, get a better handle on how such slippage occurs, how the damage is then solidified so more and more damage can be done.
 
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