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Pro-Life High School Group Says Principal Banned Them From Using Life-Sized Fetus

MaggieD said:
I think everyone (read "the principal" here) is so damned afraid of being called on the carpet that they tend to err on the side of what they deem is caution. Of course it's ridiculous. If kids aren't seeing pictures of fetus development in science or biology in high school, their education is lacking. Having a hands-on exhibit at lunchtime? What's the problem?
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Aunt Spiker said:
But yet, they wouldn't permit images of birth outside of the science classroom.

Nor would they permit a pro-choice group.

I guess I'm glad my children's school district is more reasonable and not relying on extremes and shock to terrify students into various views.
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Wonder if Planned Parenthood is allowed?
 
WCH said:
Wonder if Planned Parenthood is allowed?
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In the form of a ProChoice group, I think they should be. Let's face it....these kinds of controversial things help kids sort out good and bad decisions and grow.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, I can see that viewpoint....So, if say the chess club wanted to have a display at lunch to interest people in chess, you'd be against that? why?
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I would be. Not that that I have anything against chess....its just that when you open it up to one group, you have to open it to all and there are some after-school groups that I don't think are appropriate for the school day. I have no problem with after-school groups using school facilities including religious groups, gay rights groups etc. But after-school or weekend use allows students an opportunity to choose to participate or not. When it is during the school day, it is more difficult to avoid. If you allow chess, you allow proseletyzing by religious groups during the school day.
 
disneydude said:
I would be. Not that that I have anything against chess....its just that when you open it up to one group, you have to open it to all and there are some after-school groups that I don't think are appropriate for the school day. I have no problem with after-school groups using school facilities including religious groups, gay rights groups etc. But after-school or weekend use allows students an opportunity to choose to participate or not. When it is during the school day, it is more difficult to avoid. If you allow chess, you allow proseletyzing by religious groups during the school day.
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I could see the whole thing being a real learning experience.

  • Your group must have a permit.
  • Permits must be requested four weeks before the scheduled exhibit/demonstration.
  • Only one permit per school year per group.
  • Exhibit/demonstration/whatever to be held only at ________________, leaving another set of doors open and group-free.
  • Maximum number of students. Maximum floor space.

IOW, regulate what they're doing. Don't forbid it. If the group is allowed in the school, then the group is allowed a permit to exhibit.
 
j-mac said:
No, they use books, and lesson plans....



Another book used in Kindergarten's across the country that has caused controversy...



And it wasn't a picture that sparked the response, the article referenced a "life sized model"
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So they shouldn't teach kindergartners that all families are different. Even though they may know a kid in their class whose parents are gay? You're ok with singling that kid out for ridicule? Anything else they shouldn't show? Interracial? Hippies? I agree that showing the kiss was going a bit too far, but I don't disagree with teaching kids that all families are not alike. All people are not alike, we shouldn't be teaching that they are. Besides, I thought it was liberals who thought everybody should think the same thing.

Picture, model, whatever...would you feel better about having a Planned Parenthood group that showed all the different procedures using models instead of films?
 
MaggieD said:
I could see the whole thing being a real learning experience.

  • Your group must have a permit.
  • Permits must be requested four weeks before the scheduled exhibit/demonstration.
  • Only one permit per school year per group.
  • Exhibit/demonstration/whatever to be held only at ________________, leaving another set of doors open and group-free.
  • Maximum number of students. Maximum floor space.

IOW, regulate what they're doing. Don't forbid it. If the group is allowed in the school, then the group is allowed a permit to exhibit.
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Thats why they shouldn't be allowed in the school during regular school hours. After-school hours is a different story. If kids choose to participate in a learning experience after school, they should absolutely be allowed that right. But school hours should be reserved for basic education.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, there are a few things obviously left out of this dust up at this school, and the reporting of it...

1. What's wrong with showing the development of a baby?

2. What was on the poster boards?

3. Don't groups sanctioned within a high school have teacher advisers?

The article leaves questions, such as

1. What was the display depicting?

2. Were the students just educating on the levels of gestation?

3. Why is the development of a child in the womb, "controversial"?

It certainly is told to us that it is fine to broach subjects like homosexuality to kindergartners, are we to think that high school students aren't equipped to see how a baby in the womb develops?
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Usually that is taught in "health' class. Should we hand over teaching on gestation to school groups? Should the information be reviewed by health instructors and sanctioned or denied based on "correct" information?
 
rocket88 said:
So they shouldn't teach kindergartners that all families are different. Even though they may know a kid in their class whose parents are gay? You're ok with singling that kid out for ridicule? Anything else they shouldn't show? Interracial? Hippies? I agree that showing the kiss was going a bit too far, but I don't disagree with teaching kids that all families are not alike. All people are not alike, we shouldn't be teaching that they are. Besides, I thought it was liberals who thought everybody should think the same thing.

Picture, model, whatever...would you feel better about having a Planned Parenthood group that showed all the different procedures using models instead of films?
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"Right after we recite the ABCs, we're going to talk about why Bobby has two mommies and no daddy."

Yeah, that's what kindergarten is about. You betcha.
 
1750Texan said:
Usually that is taught in "health' class. Should we hand over teaching on gestation to school groups? Should the information be reviewed by health instructors and sanctioned or denied based on "correct" information?
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You mean like we already did with Planned Parenthood and DARE? As to that last, was the issue really that inaccurate info was being presented?
 
MaggieD said:
How is the school taking a position? And why are you talking about discussing "the political issue"? We have absolutely no indication that the exhibit was political. It's biology. If that's where the school wants to take it, to the political realm, that's their problem.

People always criticize our public schools for not fostering independent thought. This is a classic example of that.
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Pro-life is a political position. The group was wanting to use displays to push their agenda. It's a political issue.

There's nothing wrong with independent thought, but this had nothing to do with independent thought. This was one group trying to persuade others. Cultivating independent thought would be creating an environment conducive to questioning and debating.
j-mac said:
Do I have evidence? You mean other than the teaching materials that have been documented to have been used?
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So you have evidence that THIS PRINCIPAL used teaching materials saying homosexuality is okay in kindergarten?

I would like to see said evidence please.

I don't understand why you would choose to deny that
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I don't deny there are likely schools which have. But we're not talking about those schools, we're talking about this school. Please provide your evidence THIS school and its principal have. Thank you.

How about what is "unfair" to the students, and their rights?
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There is no such thing as the right to use fetus displays in school.

That you or I agree, or disagree with the principle of this particular school is irrelevant.
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No, it's completely relevant. You're accusing him of hypocrisy, so you need to show his hypocrisy.

And that you say the school shouldn't take a position on such charged topic, well, they did, didn't they?
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No, they didn't.

As for "appropriate times", and "fact based", who decides that? You?
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If you don't know when or what those are, perhaps you're not in a position to judge the school?

What does it matter if it is in the hall at lunch time, or at the end of the day at dismissal?
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I don't know that it does. It does however matter if it's when students are eating or when students are in a class to learn and discuss it in a moderated manner.
 
I don't think schools should officially recognize student groups with a partisan or religious agenda. But students should still be free to create their own groups and meet during recesses or after school.

Students have a right to express their political opinions with their clothing/appearance and during recesses or after school. Those kids have a right to express their views during lunch hour and the level of controversy should not be a reason to ban it.
 
clownboy said:
You mean like we already did with Planned Parenthood and DARE? As to that last, was the issue really that inaccurate info was being presented?
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You are confusing advocate groups with student based groups. It is presumed that advocate groups present a informed perspective. That can be debated...but there is no presumption that information presented by a student group is accurate.

Life size photo of a fetus is not the total of the information presented. A photo of a life size fetus is not information. A life size fetus at what stage? Life size means what?

A life size photo of a first trimester fetus can be shown on a 4" X 4" placard. Is that what was being displayed?


dont argue abortion using these kids. Stand on your own.
 
j-mac said:
Both good posts Maggie, and lizzie....I agree that the Principle over reacted here, but how do we get to a point in our primary education system where school administrators are so afraid of repercussion, that they will over react like this?
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What should be clear here, at least to me, is that the likely source of complaints for this came from the teaching staff in the school. At least here in Canada, and I suspect also in the US, teacher unions are on the forefront of pushing social liberalism, often marching in pro-abortion rights demonstrations, etc. Teacher unions frequently pass association policy positions that are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, and a host of other big government social intrusions into society. As a result, they would be loathe to sanction anything pro-life. This display was not too controversial for the students in public school, who are generally far more open minded and sponges soaking up information, but was too controversial for the one voice/one position teaching "professionals" who rule education these days.
 
Historically there has been issues with these pro-life groups giving out wildly inaccurate depictions of fetal development. Not appropriate for school.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
No - I'm pretty certain that if someone tried to start a pro-choice group and showed aborted fetuses it would cause an uproar and be deemed offensive.
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Gee, do you really believe that any pro-choice group actually shows pictures of aborted fetuses? I'd like to see documentation of that. Seems to me, pro-choice groups do their damnest to ensure nobody even mentions a fetus, let alone pictorally documents it, when espousing the virtues of abortion.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Gee, do you really believe that any pro-choice group actually shows pictures of aborted fetuses? I'd like to see documentation of that. Seems to me, pro-choice groups do their damnest to ensure nobody even mentions a fetus, let alone pictorally documents it, when espousing the virtues of abortion.
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I have no clue - which is why I'm asking about it.

None of this is an issue where I live (you know - eons ago when I was in highschool, and now)
 
Deuce said:
Historically there has been issues with these pro-life groups giving out wildly inaccurate depictions of fetal development. Not appropriate for school.
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And we sure wouldn't want any other views to be expressed that aren't in lock-step with the "wildly inaccurate" ones espoused by the teaching unions that run education and curriculum these days.
 
Conservatives have no basis in school. Just wait until the real world and leave academia for liberals.
 
Erod said:
"Right after we recite the ABCs, we're going to talk about why Bobby has two mommies and no daddy."

Yeah, that's what kindergarten is about. You betcha.
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Obviously after ABCs you go into mocking Bobby because his family is different and everybody knows it. After that, we can mock the kids whose parents are divorced because that doesn't fit into our little Leave it to Beaver fantasy.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Do you have evidence THIS principal said it's okay to discuss homosexuality with kindergartners? Unique people are unique. They are in different schools with different communities and different values. Trying to compare a school from one school from one town in one state to a different school in a different town in a different state is unfair.

Furthermore, I agree with the principal's decision. The school should not take a position on either side of such a politically charged issue. There's nothing wrong with discussing the political issue, but it should be done at the appropriate times, with fact based literature. A student pro-life group setting up displays at lunch time does not meet those standards.
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Your entire post is total unmitigated bull**** and doesn't contain a single fact. First off, it's a high school so how would the principal say it's okay to discuss homosexuality with KINDERGARTENERS? Secondly you don't know if their pro-life club's literature is factless or not. You just assume it is.
 
Deuce said:
Historically there has been issues with these pro-life groups giving out wildly inaccurate depictions of fetal development. Not appropriate for school.
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Sources?
 
j-mac said:
Ok, there are a few things obviously left out of this dust up at this school, and the reporting of it...

1. What's wrong with showing the development of a baby?
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If it is about development then it belongs in the biology class and presented by a competent teacher not a senior student with an agenda.

2. What was on the poster boards?
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Good question. Perhaps that should be established first before comments are made.

3. Don't groups sanctioned within a high school have teacher advisers?
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Not necessarily and especially not in case of a group with an agenda not shared by most.

2. Were the students just educating on the levels of gestation?
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It is not the students' role to educate. I hardly think they are qualified.

3. Why is the development of a child in the womb, "controversial"?
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That ini itself is not, but misrepresented to further an agenda is certainly wrong.

It certainly is told to us that it is fine to broach subjects like homosexuality to kindergartners, are we to think that high school students aren't equipped to see how a baby in the womb develops?
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That is nonsense. In the least homosexuality is a reality that some kindergartners live with, having same gender parents, and question. Fetal development was not the issue here, only a misrepresentation buy you.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Hmm - my question is 'why did they allow a pro-life group in a highschool to begin with?'

Odd.
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Exactly my thought. Seems that type of religious tripe should remain in the private realms, I guess if a Pro-Choice group is also allowed, .....nah! neither should be at a public school.
 
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