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Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

MildSteel said:
No it wasn't unforeseen, which exactly why it was a big strategic blunder. Therefore the US needs to gain strategic advantage by using Iran against Russia. In this way Putin can be strangled without inflicting harm on the West.
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Strangled? Interesting term. For what reason? The war wing (neo-cons) of American politics and those in Europe that give them lip service can not be satiated by anything less than perpetual warfare, which they themselves will gladly send others to fight, since they usually will not go themselves. Liberty and freedom they realize are fast slipping away from them as tools that can be easily used to encourage Americans to any longer fight their wars, for their trumpets of these terms now ring so hollow. How dare Russia put their country so close to our military bases. *wink*

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SayMyName said:
Strangled? Interesting term. For what reason? The war wing (neo-cons) of American politics and those in Europe that give them lip service can not be satiated by anything less than perpetual warfare, which they themselves will gladly send others to fight, since they usually will not go themselves. Liberty and freedom they realize are fast slipping away from them as tools that can be easily used to encourage Americans to any longer fight their wars, for their trumpets of these terms now ring so hollow. How dare Russia put their country so close to our military bases. *wink*
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The thing is this, prior to this very big strategic blunder, there was no reason the view relations with Russia in this light. However, this was a VERY VERY BIG mistake. Before this, there was some chance of building trust with Russia. Now that is all gone. So, in practical terms for the near term, the US is going to have to regard Russia in a slightly adversarial light. By strangle I don't mean as in trying to kill them. By strangle I mean denying them a strategic advantage that they have in gaining Crimea. In the longer term, it's possible after everything cools off that the whole thing can be brushed under the rug and everyone can join hands and sing kum ba yah, or whatever. But for now, the US has to let Russia know that it means business, and that it's acquisition of Crimea will not be unanswered. Going through Iran is the most effective way to do this. IMHO.
 
MildSteel said:
The thing is this, prior to this very big strategic blunder, there was no reason the view relations with Russia in this light. However, this was a VERY VERY BIG mistake. Before this, there was some chance of building trust with Russia. Now that is all gone. So, in practical terms for the near term, the US is going to have to regard Russia in a slightly adversarial light. By strangle I don't mean as in trying to kill them. By strangle I mean denying them a strategic advantage that they have in gaining Crimea. In the longer term, it's possible after everything cools off that the whole thing can be brushed under the rug and everyone can join hands and sing kum ba yah, or whatever. But for now, the US has to let Russia know that it means business, and that it's acquisition of Crimea will not be unanswered. Going through Iran is the most effective way to do this. IMHO.
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I understand. Yet, after all the demonizing of Iran over the last 4 decades, do you really think that this country would have anything to do with the United States by way of cooperation?
 
SayMyName said:
I understand. Yet, after all the demonizing of Iran over the last 4 decades, do you really think that this country would have anything to do with the United States by way of cooperation?
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That's a very good point and I thought about it. That's the hard part of it, and although it would be difficult, I think it can be done. This is the very kind of thing that Obama was put in office for in the first place and given a Nobel Prize. What he needs to do is start playing the change you can believe in card. I know that sounds corny, but I'm serious. I think he is the very person that could pull it off, because he isn't a Dick Cheney or Dubya type. If he can't do this type of thing, then he should not have been put in office in the first place. And after this very big blunder in the Ukraine, he needs to get off his butt and start making up for it. Time for Obama to "get up get out and get something!"
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Never said you did...what? Are you admitting you don't accept it as real?

Would you excuse such a clearly fake and manipulated result if it was pro-US?
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I answered this in two previous posts.
 
Erod said:
The military isn't what's breaking us. It's half our citizenry's incessant need to sponge off the other half.
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That's why we have to get rid of those CORPORATE WELFARE QUEENS. Of course, many of those are military.
 
MildSteel said:
Looks like Victoria Nuland scared the s*it out of Rinat Akhmetov at "the talk."
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US intrigue in this affair, and sabotage of the Russian/Ukraine deal escapes, or rather is ignored by these people. You might notice that for all his arguing about the illegitimacy of the referendum, OldWorldOrder acknowledges that Russia is doing the same thing the US would do under the same circumstances.
 
SayMyName said:
I understand. Yet, after all the demonizing of Iran over the last 4 decades, do you really think that this country would have anything to do with the United States by way of cooperation?
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Funny how few see that!
 
SayMyName said:
I understand. Yet, after all the demonizing of Iran over the last 4 decades, do you really think that this country would have anything to do with the United States by way of cooperation?
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Of course they would. They would act in their own best interests both for the short and long term. These are not children we are dealing with.
 
SayMyName said:
Strangled? Interesting term. For what reason? The war wing (neo-cons) of American politics and those in Europe that give them lip service can not be satiated by anything less than perpetual warfare, which they themselves will gladly send others to fight, since they usually will not go themselves. Liberty and freedom they realize are fast slipping away from them as tools that can be easily used to encourage Americans to any longer fight their wars, for their trumpets of these terms now ring so hollow. How dare Russia put their country so close to our military bases. *wink*

View attachment 67163610
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Yep the hypocrisy is thick, thick, THICK. And to hear John Kerry, Joe Biden, Jay Carney, and Barack Obama, demand that Russia respect a countries sovereignties, national borders and constitutions is the epitome of.........................
 
Montecresto said:
I answered this in two previous posts.
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So you agree it's clearly faked and manipulated?

And you said you wouldn't care. I think most people find that very hard to believe.
 
MildSteel said:
The fact is that the Europeans killed many of the native Americans and settled in what we now called the United States. What happened in Crimea was to be expected.
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That's not the point. If you can use a bureaucratic tweaking sixty years ago to justify the violation of Ukraine's territorial integrity, then I can use the genocide of non-Russians that occurred 70 and 80 years ago to justify Ukraine keeping Crimea.
 
Montecresto said:
US intrigue in this affair, and sabotage of the Russian/Ukraine deal escapes, or rather is ignored by these people. You might notice that for all his arguing about the illegitimacy of the referendum, OldWorldOrder acknowledges that Russia is doing the same thing the US would do under the same circumstances.
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It maybe not so much ignored as the desire to divert people's attention from. If people really understood how things work, the world would likely be very different.
 
MadLib said:
That's not the point. If you can use a bureaucratic tweaking sixty years ago to justify the violation of Ukraine's territorial integrity, then I can use the genocide of non-Russians that occurred 70 and 80 years ago to justify Ukraine keeping Crimea.
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For better or for worse the right of self determination has been used to justify nations becoming independent in our modern times. In fact it is a principle that is recognized in the UN charter. Honestly, it's one of those things that is very controversial, but that's the way it's done.
 
MildSteel said:
For better or for worse the right of self determination has been used to justify nations becoming independent in our modern times. In fact it is a principle that is recognized in the UN charter. Honestly, it's one of those things that is very controversial, but that's the way it's done.
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Self-determination has usually been applied to colonies and sovereign nations, not to an integral part of a country that happens to have a different ethnic constituency. That's what territorial integrity is for.
 
MildSteel said:
If you don't like puppet government, how about a government under strong US influence.
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Uhhh...maybe? Do you think every pair of friendly countries with power imbalances constitutes a puppet and a master? I mean is South Korea a puppet state of the US? Is Singapore a puppet state of China?

Influence doesn't equal puppetry.
 
MadLib said:
Self-determination has usually been applied to colonies and sovereign nations, not to an integral part of a country that happens to have a different ethnic constituency. That's what territorial integrity is for.
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Self determination was applied to Kosovo territorial integrity non-withstanding.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Uhhh...maybe? Do you think every pair of friendly countries with power imbalances constitutes a puppet and a master? I mean is South Korea a puppet state of the US? Is Singapore a puppet state of China?

Influence doesn't equal puppetry.
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It's a puppet government. When the influence of the US is so strong that it can dictate a list of demands to a head of government, and the government must, and does obey, then it's a puppet government. Like I said puppets do what is demanded of them by the people that pull the strings.
 
MildSteel said:
It's a puppet government. When the influence of the US is so strong that it can dictate a list of demands to a head of government, and the government must, and does obey, then it's a puppet government. Like I said puppets do what is demanded of them by the people that pull the strings.
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Then there's dozens of puppet governments for all kinds of nations the world over. Not really the standard definition- and certainly not mine- but however you want to define it.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Then there's dozens of puppet governments for all kinds of nations the world over. Not really the standard definition- and certainly not mine- but however you want to define it.
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Like I said, puppets do as they are demanded by people that pull the strings.

It's said Nuland's guy tralied both Klitschko and Tyahnybok. It's doubtful he could have been elected democratically. He's even said he's going to be unpopular.
 
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