• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:76]

Moderator's Warning:
Cut out the attacks.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

This all makes me wonder if the government is actively driving as many people "off the grid" (not just off the power grid) as possible.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

Not sure what "industry" has to do with it, unless industry is a general reference, but let's face it, there will be a collapse of society eventually. Too many irreconcilable differences among cultures. Something is going to have to give, one ideology will win out over the other, and if I'm planning for it, I'd rather it be the conservative ideology over all others. Can't see liberalism lasting as people tend to not like having to work their asses off to pay for the other half that doesn't. ;)


Of course no one in our current admin is planning for this, heck Obama seems awfully willing to let other nations walk all over him. I dunno, maybe, well surely he thinks we'll all come together one day before the great purge of ideologies, but like all liberals that think this way, they have no idea that they'll be the first to get branded and themselves purged. The tipping point (scientifically speaking not metaphorically) is anyone's guess, but it's not too far away IMO. We'll see smaller microcosms on full display first, then the big one. The liberals have enjoyed some success of the last 40 years or so nudging us in the progressive direction, but it won't last. It's inevitable


Tim-
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

prometeus said:
It is a study and not a theory. As such they are not out to prove anything, but draw intelligent and reasonable conclusions, something that you prefer to oppose for some reason.

As I said, intelligent and reasonable conclusions.

No it is a study and it has a conclusion,

Really? And what expertise do you have that prompts this assertion on your part? So far you only referred to flying pigs and that I am afraid is not a very encouraging credential, but by all means, do provide your own conclusions or point out the errors in the study.
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the same thing? Because if we are you'd know it is very hard to disproven a "study" that doesn't prove anything. The entire "study" is based on using history to make assumptions, and assumptions by definition are not "intelligent and responsible conclusions."
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

ReformCollege said:
Are we talking about the same thing?
Click to expand...
Apparently not, as you are still looking for a study to prove something.

The entire "study" is based on using history to make assumptions
Click to expand...
That is an amazing observation on your part. I do not know if you know this but reliable data from the future is exceptionally hard to obtain and that is why known facts from the past are used as data and the past is history as they say.

and assumptions by definition are not "intelligent and responsible conclusions."
Click to expand...
But conclusions based on verifiable data are intelligent and reasonable, not to mention that you haven't been able to show any errors in methodology or the data used.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

prometeus said:
Apparently not, as you are still looking for a study to prove something.

That is an amazing observation on your part. I do not know if you know this but reliable data from the future is exceptionally hard to obtain and that is why known facts from the past are used as data and the past is history as they say.

But conclusions based on verifiable data are intelligent and reasonable, not to mention that you haven't been able to show any errors in methodology or the data used.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Conclusions very often don't match their data. I have no qualms with the data they did present, but the data they did present isn't enough to suggest what they are suggesting. Yes we know the population is set to grow, and we know we will require more food and energy. Where is their data on whether or not we are meeting this food and energy demand?

And while we are on the subject, how do the authors suggest we meet those demands? What are the positions of the authors' on things like GMO's and nuclear energy? Where is their data that a green revolution can solve the problems they presented? What would said green revolution even consist of?

You see a study with vague conclusions based on limited data does not constitute "intelligent and reasonable," at least by my expectations. When I see the word study, I expect a body of work that adds something to the conversation. This fails to do that.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

iguanaman said:
There is no way "off this rock". The sooner we grasp that fact the better.
Click to expand...

Yes, we probably only have a few hundred thousand years of resouces left, assuming nothing is renewable. We better think of something, fast! Well, slow.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

StringBean said:
Ants have been around a lot longer than human beings. If civilization collapses and we die out, they will still be around. Perhaps the lesson to learn is live within the means of your environment?
Click to expand...

Kind of like drones? Just do the same thing, over and over. No advancement. Nah.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

ReformCollege said:
Not necessarily. Conclusions very often don't match their data.
Click to expand...
Specifically to this study or in general?

I have no qualms with the data they did present, but the data they did present isn't enough to suggest what they are suggesting.
Click to expand...
What do you feel is missing in order for the conclusion to be more robustly supported?

Yes we know the population is set to grow, and we know we will require more food and energy.
Click to expand...
And that doers not even need a study.

Where is their data on whether or not we are meeting this food and energy demand?
Click to expand...
Have you reviewed the study and can competently say that they missed something?

And while we are on the subject, how do the authors suggest we meet those demands?
Click to expand...
That was not the scope of the study as it is clearly stated in there introduction.

What are the positions of the authors' on things like GMO's and nuclear energy?
Click to expand...
A study of this nature can only utilize facts and facts are only part of history. It would take a different study based on projections to draw possible conclusions how any of your proposed variables would impact the future.

Where is their data that a green revolution can solve the problems they presented?
Click to expand...
See above.

What would said green revolution even consist of?
Click to expand...
How could mathematicians guesstimate that? It is not their line of expertise. They could take possible projections made available if those projections were based on reliable sources.

You see a study with vague conclusions based on limited data does not constitute "intelligent and reasonable," at least by my expectations.
Click to expand...
Yet you are unable to point out a single flaw in the data they used or the methodology.

When I see the word study, I expect a body of work that adds something to the conversation. This fails to do that.
Click to expand...
To you perhaps, but that does not negate the validity of the study or its conclusion.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

prometeus said:
Specifically to this study or in general?

What do you feel is missing in order for the conclusion to be more robustly supported?

And that doers not even need a study.

Have you reviewed the study and can competently say that they missed something?

That was not the scope of the study as it is clearly stated in there introduction.

A study of this nature can only utilize facts and facts are only part of history. It would take a different study based on projections to draw possible conclusions how any of your proposed variables would impact the future.

See above.

How could mathematicians guesstimate that? It is not their line of expertise. They could take possible projections made available if those projections were based on reliable sources.

Yet you are unable to point out a single flaw in the data they used or the methodology.

To you perhaps, but that does not negate the validity of the study or its conclusion.
Click to expand...

Did you even click the link and read the study in question? I'm starting to get the impression you have not.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

DVSentinel said:
Oops. Hate when that happens. Let them reap what the have sown. Die, if that is all they earn for themselves.
Click to expand...

Really? This sociopathic mentality is truly reprehensible. You obviously realize that you're condemning your fellow man to death because of what - that they're unemployed? You must not give a fuçk that the U.S. has been enduring the worst economic downturn (for the last half decade) since the Great Depression. It is not the average Joe's fault that the U.S. (and world) economy tanked. So instead of rallying against your fellow man who is downtrodden, the logical, moral and ethical thing to rally for is job creation across the board, government innovation and investment and incentives to large U.S. corporations that sell their wares in America but employ the majority (or all) of their workers away from our shores.

Besides, I don't know what you do for a living or if you're even in the workforce, but if you are, it is really quite moronic to condemn people you see as disadvantaged, like the unemployed. Why? There is no such thing as 'job security' anymore. Hell, not even in the U.S. military is there security that a soldier, sailor, airmen or Marine will retain their position from week-to-week. So if you're working, consider yourself lucky but realize that that could change in an instant in today's economic scene.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

Somerville said:
Just a 'few' items in this story to stir up discussion



Items to discuss

" high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources"

under conditions "closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid."

how do we humans " reduce economic inequality" and also find a way " to dramatically reduce resource consumption "??

work by KPMG and the UK's Government Office for Science shows that resource exploitation could create a "perfect storm" of civilisational-ending crises by 2030.
Click to expand...

What's going on now and the probable future determined off today's realities is the epitome of the glass half-full/empty analogy. There is cause for optimism and pessimism. But when everything that is in conflict with humanity today is looked at from a futuristic perspective, the half-full/empty scenario is played out quite significantly: either our pressing problems are dealt with/solved/avoided/etc or humanity suffers the consequences that have been known to some of us for some time.

One thing, I believe, is absolutely certain: we will continue, as a collective, to have an over-reliance on technology - in particular, technology to advance our lives and solve our various problems temporarily - without undergoing the necessary and fundamental changes to truly conquer the behemoth challenges that are with us now and those that lie before us in the not too far off horizon.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

ReformCollege said:
Did you even click the link and read the study in question? I'm starting to get the impression you have not.
Click to expand...
I did, but I see you have not answered any of my questions.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

Jango said:
What's going on now and the probable future determined off today's realities is the epitome of the glass half-full/empty analogy.
Click to expand...
I never liked that analogy, it really leaves too many questions unanswered. The best approach is to establish how many ml. or oz. of water are in the glass and decide what to do with it.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

ttwtt78640 said:
The NASA mission has now morphed from running the national space shuttle service to conducting income inequality studies? It may be time to defund this bunch of "experts".
Click to expand...

NASA has done us a bunch of good technologically. It's time to kick them out of the social sciences and get them involved in the science of space exploration. Obama changed their mission as one of the first things when he got into office. Democrats claim they are the party of science, primarliy because some social conservatives believe the world is six thousand years old. While I'll give them that one, they aren't the party of science. They are the party of using junk science to force political and social change. I would defund NASA as long as they are social scientists but fully support them if they got back to real science.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

MrVicchio said:
Oh boy, another "man is doomed" prediction.
Click to expand...

2ih848p.jpg


"It's true! I seen it on the internet!"
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

sawdust said:
NASA has done us a bunch of good technologically. It's time to kick them out of the social sciences and get them involved in the science of space exploration. Obama changed their mission as one of the first things when he got into office. Democrats claim they are the party of science, primarliy because some social conservatives believe the world is six thousand years old. While I'll give them that one, they aren't the party of science. They are the party of using junk science to force political and social change. I would defund NASA as long as they are social scientists but fully support them if they got back to real science.
Click to expand...

Let me guess: you're one of the people who believed Rush Limbaugh when he said NASA was turned into a "Muslim outreach program."
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

Somerville said:
Just a 'few' items in this story to stir up discussion



Items to discuss

" high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources"

under conditions "closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid."

how do we humans " reduce economic inequality" and also find a way " to dramatically reduce resource consumption "??

work by KPMG and the UK's Government Office for Science shows that resource exploitation could create a "perfect storm" of civilisational-ending crises by 2030.
Click to expand...


Because if there is one organization I really on fully in matters of financial and geopolitical economic forecasting, it's NASA.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

StringBean said:
Study an ant colony.

It sends out worker drones to collect resources so the colony can expand.

Eventually, there are no more resources left so the colony must move to a new location with fresh resources.

What if, that colony is a planet with 10 billion people and there are no more resources. No new planet to run to.

Are you folks so anthropocentric to think we are somehow special and immune to the laws nature?

The prediction of 2030 is certainly off, and the dire tales of economic stratification are largely unwarranted (unless the uber-rich begin hoarding all resources), but we need to re-think just how quickly we are using up what precious gifts our planet has given us.
Click to expand...

Ants haven't perfected the science of recycling.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

StringBean said:
Nope, because in that example the colony collapses and they move to a new location with fresh resources.

We only have one Earth.
Click to expand...

I say we plow up the field and kill all the ants. That'll learn 'em.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

indago said:
2ih848p.jpg


"It's true! I seen it on the internet!"
Click to expand...

It's sort of like the constant "the economy is going to implode predictions that will eventually be right"
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

jmotivator said:
I say we plow up the field and kill all the ants. That'll learn 'em.
Click to expand...

No it wont. Dead ants don't learn.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

prometeus said:
I did, but I see you have not answered any of my questions.
Click to expand...

To answer your question then, the problem with their methodology is that it cannot suggest when civilization would collapse and it definitely cannot suggest that it will happen anytime soon. Their conclusion itself reads much like a social theory paper, and thus makes me question if that was the conclusion they originally started with.

The article even says that "collapse theories are considered fringe" and presents two other pieces of work that use the exact same methodology with much much less drastic conclusions.
It's right in the OP.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

tacomancer said:
It's sort of like the constant "the economy is going to implode predictions that will eventually be right"
Click to expand...

Yes, yes it is.
 
Re: Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?[W:

Jango said:
Really? This sociopathic mentality is truly reprehensible. You obviously realize that you're condemning your fellow man to death because of what - that they're unemployed? You must not give a fuçk that the U.S. has been enduring the worst economic downturn (for the last half decade) since the Great Depression. It is not the average Joe's fault that the U.S. (and world) economy tanked. So instead of rallying against your fellow man who is downtrodden, the logical, moral and ethical thing to rally for is job creation across the board, government innovation and investment and incentives to large U.S. corporations that sell their wares in America but employ the majority (or all) of their workers away from our shores.

Besides, I don't know what you do for a living or if you're even in the workforce, but if you are, it is really quite moronic to condemn people you see as disadvantaged, like the unemployed. Why? There is no such thing as 'job security' anymore. Hell, not even in the U.S. military is there security that a soldier, sailor, airmen or Marine will retain their position from week-to-week. So if you're working, consider yourself lucky but realize that that could change in an instant in today's economic scene.
Click to expand...

A very large number of them are the ones who voted in the socialist minded liberals that are responsible for the economic problems in the US. It is the Liberal agenda that has been forcing jobs overseas and making American made products unaffordable. I think it is great when so many liberals and union workers are left unemployed by outsourcing that their own policies brought about.

Also, I believe that very few would actually die. Survival instinct is a very strong motivator. After a few do die from their laziness, the rest will get the message and we will see them start taking jobs that they have scorned because it is easier and more comfortable to live off the rest of us.

Finally, it is morally reprehensible to enslave others. By saying that non-producers have the "right" to what the producers make and earn is making those producers slaves. When you punish achievement and reward laziness and non-achievement, nothing good at all can come of it. It is not sociopathic to place the wellbeing of the majority ahead of the wellbeing of the few, especially when the few are quite often in their predicament due to their own choices and their own laziness. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom