New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

10 to 15% is not rare. 18% of single custodial parents are fathers. That isn't rare. And that is numbers from the census, but I'm not looking it back up for you. You can find it yourself since you are the one that continues to insist that it is rare for mothers to be forced to pay child support.

Click to expand...

Oh I'm sure there are occasional instances where the dad isn't incarcerated, but the woman is (where that 18% probably comes from). And even if 10-15% is accurate, it's still too low.

If you cannot provide for your children yourself, maybe you don't need custody at all. Good way to punish women who pump out kids to milk the system.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

Oh I'm sure there are occasional instances where the dad isn't incarcerated, but the woman is (where that 18% probably comes from). And even if 10-15% is accurate, it's still too low.

If you cannot provide for your children yourself, maybe you don't need custody at all. Good way to punish women who pump out kids to milk the system.

Click to expand...

No, there are plenty of incidents where the father has custody of the child. My own best friend's father had custody of her until he died, then his parents ended up raising her. She still has contact with her mother but she was never interested in raising a child with special needs. There are then some mothers who simply leave and/or don't want to take care of a kid. There are all sorts of circumstances that can lead to a father being given primary custody over a child and the mother having to pay child support.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Hatuey said:

Which means what? She's already denying him access to the child. If she's going to go that route, then he should be free to deny her any support as well. :shrug: You can't have it both ways.

Click to expand...

No she is not. She is denying access to the birth - a situation where mom and fetus are still connected. Her body - her choice. When the baby is disconnected from her body it would be entirely reasonable to see the baby in short order. If she is denied this after birth, she is being an ass.

But like I said....what father who actually cares about the baby she is trying to give birth to would actually intentionally put her in a position to make her more uncomfortable and physiologically more stressed? If he could think beyond himself for a second, he would realize that taking her to court over this was really not something that would be a net positive for the child, let alone the mom.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

year2late said:

No she is not. She is denying access to the birth - a situation where mom and fetus are still connected. Her body - her choice. When the baby is disconnected from her body it would be entirely reasonable to see the baby in short order. If she is denied this after birth, she is being an ass.

But like I said....what father who actually cares about the baby she is trying to give birth to would actually intentionally put her in a position to make her more uncomfortable and physiologically more stressed? If he could think beyond himself for a second, he would realize that taking her to court over this was really not something that would be a net positive for the child, let alone the mom.

Click to expand...

As far as the law is concerned, she's denying access to both. The law recognizes fetuses CHILDREN past the 1st trimester. So she is in fact denying him access to the child - born or unborn in a nuance that is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. That said, your argument basically boils down to: She was stressed - so this was good. When in reality, we know that this was done as a move to spite the father after what seems like a ****ty breakup. What is weird about it all is that you somehow think telling the kid when he's 5 "Your mommy didn't want your daddy present when you were born" - will somehow look better than "Your mom and dad were both present when you were born". This was a self-serving act on the part of the mother. Nothing more.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

No, there are plenty of incidents where the father has custody of the child. My own best friend's father had custody of her until he died, then his parents ended up raising her. She still has contact with her mother but she was never interested in raising a child with special needs. There are then some mothers who simply leave and/or don't want to take care of a kid. There are all sorts of circumstances that can lead to a father being given primary custody over a child and the mother having to pay child support.

Click to expand...

It's as I said before - the only time a father gets physical custody is in a situation like that. If a man has custody, you can bet every dollar in your pocket that the mother is 1) gone, 2) jailed, or 3) addicted to something bad. Dad could be father of the year - if the mom isn't beyond incompetent, he'll never have custody. He could be the better parent to raise them - it won't matter. Plain and simple.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

This thread has been a real eye-opener... and not in a good way. The animosity, ignorance, misogyny and sheer venom heaped upon this woman, and basically spread around throughout the thread to all women, has been extraordinary.

I've come to expect this kind of hatefulness from some of the posters in this thread; others, sadly, were a real surprise. I will never feel the same about them again.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

year2late said:

No she is not. She is denying access to the birth - a situation where mom and fetus are still connected. Her body - her choice. When the baby is disconnected from her body it would be entirely reasonable to see the baby in short order. If she is denied this after birth, she is being an ass.

But like I said....what father who actually cares about the baby she is trying to give birth to would actually intentionally put her in a position to make her more uncomfortable and physiologically more stressed? If he could think beyond himself for a second, he would realize that taking her to court over this was really not something that would be a net positive for the child, let alone the mom.

Click to expand...

He was allowed to see the child very shortly after birth, so the speculation to the contrary that other posters have been making is pure poppycock, meant only to vilify her and victimize him.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

DiAnna said:

This thread has been a real eye-opener... and not in a good way. The animosity, ignorance, misogyny and sheer venom heaped upon this woman, and basically spread around throughout the thread to all women, has been extraordinary.

I've come to expect this kind of hatefulness from some of the posters in this thread; others, sadly, were a real surprise. I will never feel the same about them again.

Click to expand...

I think you overlooked the unkind words directed at the man or are you arguing from the position that men should be able to take such abuse but it's never permissible to say anything negative about women?

Your omission and double standard also says something.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

It's as I said before - the only time a father gets physical custody is in a situation like that. If a man has custody, you can bet every dollar in your pocket that the mother is 1) gone, 2) jailed, or 3) addicted to something bad. Dad could be father of the year - if the mom isn't beyond incompetent, he'll never have custody. He could be the better parent to raise them - it won't matter. Plain and simple.

Click to expand...

In many such cases where the parents are equally able to raise the children or situated, it is likely that the parents will share custody. There is definitely some favoritism toward women in the system when it comes to child custody, but there is simply no easy fast fix to that. You can rant and rave all you want, but it won't solve the problem. And there is little the courts or any of us can do for many of them because frankly there is no way to really know who is the best parent to raise the child in most cases. Court employees aren't prescient or all knowing or mindreaders. They simply can't know which parent is best. And what are they supposed to do when both parents work jobs or one works a job and the other doesn't because the other parent was the caregiver for the children up til the divorce? What are they supposed to do if one parent (usually the father) has a job that has them working very long hours? Should they take into account who left whom? What about if one of them already has found someone else (whether they were married or not) when custody is considered? Other children of both from other people? There are simply so many things and unfortunately most people are going to say that children need their mothers more than their fathers. Sure, it would be nice to have more research done by family courts to see this, but that would also take time where the child(ren) still have to spend time with their parents and living their lives.

Plus, believe it or not, some fathers don't want their children either. My own father only wanted to try for joint custody to avoid paying child support for four children when he divorced my mother. After he was contested on his request, he went almost completely opposite and asked for so little visitation that it was truly pathetic.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

RiverDad said:

I think you overlooked the unkind words directed at the man or are you arguing from the position that men should be able to take such abuse but it's never permissible to say anything negative about women?

Your omission and double standard also says something.

Click to expand...

It should be a no brainer that the woman had the right to privacy.

He created his own drama.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Hatuey said:

As far as the law is concerned, she's denying access to both. The law recognizes fetuses CHILDREN past the 1st trimester. So she is in fact denying him access to the child - born or unborn in a nuance that is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. That said, your argument basically boils down to: She was stressed - so this was good. When in reality, we know that this was done as a move to spite the father after what seems like a ****ty breakup. What is weird about it all is that you somehow think telling the kid when he's 5 "Your mommy didn't want your daddy present when you were born" - will somehow look better than "Your mom and dad were both present when you were born". This was a self-serving act on the part of the mother. Nothing more.

Click to expand...

Who would tell their children when they are 5 anything like that to begin with? My husband wasn't present for our second son's birth but was for the first son's. Does that make him a bad father? Anyone who brought up something like that with such a young child is being a childish parent, no matter if they are mother or father.

The act was selfserving of the father to expect to try to get a court to grant him permission to the mother's room when he knows that they are not on the best of terms (and it would certainly not make the terms better taking her to court over this). Him being there, in the room, for the birth of his child is for him, not the child. It should be for the mother, but with the status of the relationship, that is unlikely to be the case for this particular couple. The child won't remember and there is nothing shameful about a father waiting outside the delivery room.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

dianna said:

this thread has been a real eye-opener... And not in a good way. The animosity, ignorance, misogyny and sheer venom heaped upon this woman, and basically spread around throughout the thread to all women, has been extraordinary.

I've come to expect this kind of hatefulness from some of the posters in this thread; others, sadly, were a real surprise. I will never feel the same about them again.

Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^
what she said!

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

DiAnna said:

This thread has been a real eye-opener... and not in a good way. The animosity, ignorance, misogyny and sheer venom heaped upon this woman, and basically spread around throughout the thread to all women, has been extraordinary.

I've come to expect this kind of hatefulness from some of the posters in this thread; others, sadly, were a real surprise. I will never feel the same about them again.

Click to expand...

What a load. How about the misandry of the thread? The woman is denying the father of the child a supposedly important moment in a selfish move.

Women are immune to criticism in today's world. The guy can get dumped on for the nerve of wanting to be there for the birth of his child, but the mother can do and act any way she wants.

Women will never be equal. They can't handle being judged on their own merits. Remarks like yours support a return to the days where women are seen and not heard.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

In many such cases where the parents are equally able to raise the children or situated, it is likely that the parents will share custody. There is definitely some favoritism toward women in the system when it comes to child custody, but there is simply no easy fast fix to that. You can rant and rave all you want, but it won't solve the problem. And there is little the courts or any of us can do for many of them because frankly there is no way to really know who is the best parent to raise the child in most cases. Court employees aren't prescient or all knowing or mindreaders. They simply can't know which parent is best. And what are they supposed to do when both parents work jobs or one works a job and the other doesn't because the other parent was the caregiver for the children up til the divorce? What are they supposed to do if one parent (usually the father) has a job that has them working very long hours? Should they take into account who left whom? What about if one of them already has found someone else (whether they were married or not) when custody is considered? Other children of both from other people? There are simply so many things and unfortunately most people are going to say that children need their mothers more than their fathers. Sure, it would be nice to have more research done by family courts to see this, but that would also take time where the child(ren) still have to spend time with their parents and living their lives.

Plus, believe it or not, some fathers don't want their children either. My own father only wanted to try for joint custody to avoid paying child support for four children when he divorced my mother. After he was contested on his request, he went almost completely opposite and asked for so little visitation that it was truly pathetic.

Click to expand...

Give me five minutes and I could tell you who would be the better parent in practically every case.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Hatuey said:

As far as the law is concerned, she's denying access to both. The law recognizes fetuses CHILDREN past the 1st trimester. So she is in fact denying him access to the child - born or unborn in a nuance that is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. That said, your argument basically boils down to: She was stressed - so this was good. When in reality, we know that this was done as a move to spite the father after what seems like a ****ty breakup. What is weird about it all is that you somehow think telling the kid when he's 5 "Your mommy didn't want your daddy present when you were born" - will somehow look better than "Your mom and dad were both present when you were born". This was a self-serving act on the part of the mother. Nothing more.

Click to expand...

Good lord, how in the hell do you know it was a vengeful spite. Seriously.

And if it was a "****ty breakup" - more the reason he should not be there to stress her out. Billions of dads have not seen their kids being born.

And frankly if a parent said to their young kid "mommy wouldn't let me watch you being born" - that is highly manipulative and that person should get help immediately.

I have seen mothers and fathers play this game and it is flipping sick and twisted.

Seriously, you act like a woman in the throws of labor and delivery has an ability to suck it up and get a grip over her ex being there.:lamo :lamo

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

Give me five minutes and I could tell you who would be the better parent in practically every case.

Click to expand...

I bet you think you could.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

Give me five minutes and I could tell you who would be the better parent in practically every case.

Click to expand...

I guarantee you couldn't, even in most cases. You would be basing your judgement on split second observations with very little real information. And there are plenty of parents out there who are both good parents but simply can't get along.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

What a load. How about the misandry of the thread? The woman is denying the father of the child a supposedly important moment in a selfish move.

Women are immune to criticism in today's world. The guy can get dumped on for the nerve of wanting to be there for the birth of his child, but the mother can do and act any way she wants.

Click to expand...

The guy was not allowed in the delivery room. It's the right of the woman to choose who she wants to support her during labor and delivery, and who she doesn't want there. He was so obsessed with forcing himself into that room, that he actually sued her while she was in labor, a truly dick move proving that her well-being, and by rote the well-being of the baby she was giving birth to, was of lesser concern to him than forcing his will upon her.

These people do NOT like each other. Giving birth is traumatic enough without having someone you despise in the same room while you are expelling the equivalent of a 10-lb watermelon, screaming unladylike things such as "get it OOOOOUUUUUT!"... which would probably be brought up in their next court date (and there WILL be a "next court date") to prove that she didn't want the baby in the first place, therefore he should be given custody.

The woman has repeatedly stated that he will never be denied access to the child, and in fact he saw the child immediately after it was born. All the rest of this "she's such a selfish bitch" crap is nothing but pure hatefulness by people who have never actually endured childbirth, let alone endured it with a person who despises her in the room. Only supportive people should be allowed, and are allowed, in the delivery room, and only with the mother's permission.

Women will never be equal. They can't handle being judged on their own merits. Remarks like yours support a return to the days where women are seen and not heard.

Click to expand...

Ah, I see. So because I have dared to speak out... apparently above my station in life, being a mere woman and all... that should be a rallying cry to strip women of all right to speak without permission and to hold independent opinions. I'll keep that in mind.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

DiAnna said:

He was allowed to see the child very shortly after birth, so the speculation to the contrary that other posters have been making is pure poppycock, meant only to vilify her and victimize him.

Click to expand...

Was she ordered by the court to do so, or was fine with it?

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

year2late said:

Was she ordered by the court to do so, or was fine with it?

Click to expand...

According to the article, she was not ordered by the court to do anything. She had always told him that she would not deny him access to the child.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

DiAnna said:

The guy was not allowed in the delivery room. It's the right of the woman to choose who she wants to support her during labor and delivery, and who she doesn't want there. He was so obsessed with forcing himself into that room, that he actually sued her while she was in labor, a truly dick move proving that her well-being, and by rote the well-being of the baby she was giving birth to, was of lesser concern to him than forcing his will upon her.

These people do NOT like each other. Giving birth is traumatic enough without having someone you despise in the same room while you are expelling the equivalent of a 10-lb watermelon, screaming unladylike things such as "get it OOOOOUUUUUT!"... which would probably be brought up in their next court date (and there WILL be a "next court date") to prove that she didn't want the baby in the first place, therefore he should be given custody.

The woman has repeatedly stated that he will never be denied access to the child, and in fact he saw the child immediately after it was born. All the rest of this "she's such a selfish bitch" crap is nothing but pure hatefulness by people who have never actually endured childbirth, let alone endured it with a person who despises her in the room. Only supportive people should be allowed, and are allowed, in the delivery room, and only with the mother's permission.



Ah, I see. So because I have dared to speak out... apparently above my station in life, being a mere woman and all... that should be a rallying cry to strip women of all right to speak without permission and to hold independent opinions. I'll keep that in mind.

Click to expand...

If the woman is so emotionally unstable that she has to take this hardline stance, she doesn't have the mental acuity, nor the emotional stability to make such a decision. She's being a baby herself, allowing her weak, womanly emotions the power to punish the man.

It's a good lesson for men - a woman's vitriol and petty spite can be a tool against you at any time...and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Attitudes like that make men splitting on knocked-up women almost justified.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

What a load. How about the misandry of the thread? The woman is denying the father of the child a supposedly important moment in a selfish move.

Women are immune to criticism in today's world. The guy can get dumped on for the nerve of wanting to be there for the birth of his child, but the mother can do and act any way she wants.

Women will never be equal. They can't handle being judged on their own merits. Remarks like yours support a return to the days where women are seen and not heard.

Click to expand...

You never cease to amaze me.
There are physical realities at play here.
The mother is having demands placed on her that are overwhelming, to add to that by catering to the purely emotional and selfish needs of the father is clearly not in the best interests of the child. As a parent you place your child first and yourself second. While the internal conflict the father feels in this moment may be as deserving of acknowledgement as the mothers the physical reality is that the mothers will impact the child at the moment of birth and the fathers will not.


Second physical reality...the baby comes out of her hooch. She has every right to decide who does and does not get to see that.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

If the woman is so emotionally unstable that she has to take this hardline stance, she doesn't have the mental acuity, nor the emotional stability to make such a decision. She's being a baby herself, allowing her weak, womanly emotions the power to punish the man.

It's a good lesson for men - a woman's vitriol and petty spite can be a tool against you at any time...and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Attitudes like that make men splitting on knocked-up women almost justified.

Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, how are you certain that it isn't the father who is in fact a complete jagoff?

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Gipper said:

If the woman is so emotionally unstable that she has to take this hardline stance, she doesn't have the mental acuity, nor the emotional stability to make such a decision. She's being a baby herself, allowing her weak, womanly emotions the power to punish the man.

It's a good lesson for men - a woman's vitriol and petty spite can be a tool against you at any time...and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Attitudes like that make men splitting on knocked-up women almost justified.

Click to expand...

You've made your feelings about women quite clear; no need to reiterate them. I will remember. Trust me on that.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Cardinal said:

Just out of curiosity, how are you certain that it isn't the father who is in fact a complete jagoff?

Click to expand...

Because he has a penis, duh! :lol: