New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

1.)Again, I am not saying that the father should be there during the labor, I would honor the mother's wishes for privacy then.
2.) But in this case we are not even talking about a father who became a father by way of a casual sexual encounter are we? If it were then I think in a case of a casual relationship, then it would at least be more reasonable to impose a strict separation of the two parties at the hospital.
3.) However in this case the father was her fiance.
4.)This woman made a decision with this man to not only make this baby, but also at one point to be his wife.
5.) I give more weight in this case to the father on those grounds.
6.) How much "privacy" did this woman have when she was sleeping with this man and living with him for a long time?
7.) I'm sorry, but without proof that there was abuse by this man, I think this woman is being a spoiled brat.
8.) She made decisions well before the point of delivering a baby that involved this man
9.) and I think this judge got it wrong.

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1.) its not her "wishes" its her right, VERY large difference
2.) doesnt matter how he became the father he rights are still her rights
3.) this also doesnt matter to her rights
4.) see #3
5.) the father has no right to violate the womans rights, theres no weight to give.
6.) another thing that factually doesnt matter, that was her CHOICE just like it is now. would this excuse work for a peeping tom? of course not because it has no logical merit.
7.) You are free to have this opinion and you maybe 100% right but that doesn't take away her rights
8.) this also doesnt matter if a women chooses to have sex then decides to stop half way though is it ok to just continue? i mean she already made her decision right? again, of course not because that makes no logica sense
9.) you are free to think that but theres no laws or rights that support that thought.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

AGENT J said:

1.) I didnt
2.) 100% false, your posts in content were factually not changed
3.) already gave the reasoning and provided you with the solution
4.) sorry you feel that way, like i said you can simply not respond
5.) well since i only add numbers theres no risk of this LOL
6.) not your choice

like i said if you simply wish to not participate in my courtesy in making communication very clear you can choose not too

Please stay on topic and again let me know when you can address the points I made that proved your post wrong, thanks

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I am happy to participate in any discussion with anyone at anytime, but I do not wish to have my quotes edited by you or anyone else. If you agree to not ever doing that again, then I will be happy to respond. But I am not going to respond to anyone who makes it a habit of editing other people's quotes in a manner different than they made them. Why do you not see this as a problem? Do you not understand the purpose of the quote function? When the quote says, "originally posted by so and so" then the content underneath that, both in actual words and form, is assumed to be as the ORIGINAL POSTER said it. It is a very simple concept.

If my request for not having my quotes edited without the reason for them being edited, or the "emphasis added" noted, is an unreasonable expectation, then I will leave it up to the mods to let me know that. I am not the one trying to be off topic here. I have responded to every other person in this thread without a problem, and the only problem I am having with you is because I requested that you do not edit my quotes to make them appear other than the way I made them.

I think we just need to move on now.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

Again, I am not saying that the father should be there during the labor, I would honor the mother's wishes for privacy then. But in this case we are not even talking about a father who became a father by way of a casual sexual encounter are we? If it were then I think in a case of a casual relationship, then it would at least be more reasonable to impose a strict separation of the two parties at the hospital. However in this case the father was her fiance. This woman made a decision with this man to not only make this baby, but also at one point to be his wife. I give more weight in this case to the father on those grounds. How much "privacy" did this woman have when she was sleeping with this man and living with him for a long time? I'm sorry, but without proof that there was abuse by this man, I think this woman is being a spoiled brat. She made decisions well before the point of delivering a baby that involved this man, and I think this judge got it wrong.

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And their relationship ended for reasons that we do not know, but it ended none the less and they are not (were not) on the best of terms starting sometime during the end of the pregnancy. It doesn't matter what their prior relationship was. The current tension (or rather that at the time of the birth or assumed to be at the time of the birth) is what matters. Even if they were still together, it is the mother's right to privacy if she feels that his presence would be stressful on her. He has no right to be there, despite his wishes otherwise. It is her health on the line if she is forced to endure stress from a person she doesn't want in her delivery room for whatever the reason, not his. And in fact, that added stress even puts the baby at a higher risk of problems. So it is best, no matter his personal desire to be in the room (because his presence is not necessary) that he not be in the room.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Mr.Nick said:

If they're the natural father then yes......

Hell, I have 2 brothers and a sister that were delivered at home the "old fashioned way" - at home.

I suppose there was no question as to who the father was but we - myself included - and my father were there, as well were many close family members and friends.

IMO, I think it's important for siblings to see their brothers and sisters born. It's a natural process and I'm grateful for having seen 3 live births in my life. IMO, only then you can really put life into context (not as a kid) but latter thinking about that experience..

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See now - I don't believe a birth is everyone's business. It's not a freak show. It's no one's business but her own and the few people essential to ensure it can happen safely - and even then - that's up to her (IE: home birth with a Midwife and Doula as opposed to going to a hospital).

No one has a right to demand entry into someone's home or hospital room so that is most certainly null and void.

And thankfully, the law is on my side even though a few weirdos are not.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

1.)I am happy to participate in any discussion with anyone at anytime, but I do not wish to have my quotes edited by you or anyone else.
2.) If you agree to not ever doing that again, then I will be happy to respond.
3.) But I am not going to respond to anyone who makes it a habit of editing other people's quotes in a manner different than they made them.
4.) Why do you not see this as a problem?
5.) Do you not understand the purpose of the quote function? When the quote says, "originally posted by so and so" then the content underneath that, both in actual words and form, is assumed to be as the ORIGINAL POSTER said it. It is a very simple concept.
6.)If my request for not having my quotes edited without the reason for them being edited, or the "emphasis added" noted, is an unreasonable expectation, then I will leave it up to the mods to let me know that.
8.) I am not the one trying to be off topic here.
9.)I have responded to every other person in this thread without a problem, and the only problem I am having with you is because I requested that you do not edit my quotes to make them appear other than the way I made them.
10.)
I think we just need to move on now.

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1.) well for long posts i will be continueing to number the points im addressing out of courtesy and easy of clear communication, so the choice is yours
2.) see #1
3.) see #1
4.) because its simply not
5.) yep and it has no impact to numbering points
6.) correct and the original content isnt impact one bit, i agree it is a very simply concept
7.) please do so and read the rules
8.) yes you are
9.) correct YOUR problem and see #1. Been posting like this for about 3 out of my 4 years.
10.) yes you do.

sorry it bothers you but im not changing it and you are free to not respond.

again let me know when you can address that points the show your posts to be wrong, thanks

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

And their relationship ended for reasons that we do not know, but it ended none the less and they are not (were not) on the best of terms starting sometime during the end of the pregnancy. It doesn't matter what their prior relationship was. The current tension (or rather that at the time of the birth or assumed to be at the time of the birth) is what matters. Even if they were still together, it is the mother's right to privacy if she feels that his presence would be stressful on her. He has no right to be there, despite his wishes otherwise. It is her health on the line if she is forced to endure stress from a person she doesn't want in her delivery room for whatever the reason, not his. And in fact, that added stress even puts the baby at a higher risk of problems. So it is best, no matter his personal desire to be in the room (because his presence is not necessary) that he not be in the room.

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The best part about it

it doesnt even matter if they were in fact married and she said she wanted to do it just to be mean. While in my OPINION that would be ****ty, it has no impact on her rights. SHe still has the right to do so and it doesnt infringe on the mans in any way.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

AGENT J said:

The best part about it

it doesnt even matter if they were in fact married and she said she wanted to do it just to be mean. While in my OPINION that would be ****ty, it has no impact on her rights. SHe still has the right to do so and it doesnt infringe on the mans in any way.

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Exactly. Now, in such a case, I'd say divorce would likely be in the future (unless he is fine with his wife acting like that, and some men are), but it is still her right to privacy, even if she is a bitch about it.

I was thinking though that there are even cases where a married woman might feel it is best for her husband to not be in the room, especially if they both have been there, done that in the having kids and he caused her more stress those times. I consider reasoning to be valid when it comes to judging a person on their decisions, even if they have every right to their decisions no matter how I personally feel about it or who has their feelings hurt. (And yes I know you gave me her reasoning was to be a bitch, I was just adding more, not trying to counter your post or anything.)

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

1.)Exactly. Now, in such a case, I'd say divorce would likely be in the future (unless he is fine with his wife acting like that, and some men are), but it is still her right to privacy, even if she is a bitch about it.

2.)I was thinking though that there are even cases where a married woman might feel it is best for her husband to not be in the room, especially if they both have been there, done that in the having kids and he caused her more stress those times. I consider reasoning to be valid when it comes to judging a person on their decisions, even if they have every right to their decisions no matter how I personally feel about it or who has their feelings hurt. (And yes I know you gave me her reasoning was to be a bitch, I was just adding more, not trying to counter your post or anything.)

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1.) lol probably, to do that in anger to a husband would be messed up

2.) oh yeah there could be other reasons also and i understand totally.

I just dont understand how people are so quick to use "feelings" to take away others rights

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

And their relationship ended for reasons that we do not know, but it ended none the less and they are not (were not) on the best of terms starting sometime during the end of the pregnancy. It doesn't matter what their prior relationship was. The current tension (or rather that at the time of the birth or assumed to be at the time of the birth) is what matters. Even if they were still together, it is the mother's right to privacy if she feels that his presence would be stressful on her. He has no right to be there, despite his wishes otherwise. It is her health on the line if she is forced to endure stress from a person she doesn't want in her delivery room for whatever the reason, not his. And in fact, that added stress even puts the baby at a higher risk of problems. So it is best, no matter his personal desire to be in the room (because his presence is not necessary) that he not be in the room.

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Hey I agree if the reason was for a medical need, and that could be true even of a father who was welcomed in the room, but by his actions was adding stress to the mother. But my sense in this case is that this woman is going to try to apply her personal reasons on other situations as well. I just think she needs to get over it. She made this baby with someone by choice, and she is going to have to deal with many more situations where she feels stressed over seeing the father. So is she going to be happy someday when her child asks dad if he was there when he/she was born, and dad says no your mother wouldn't let me?

So she got a judge to side with her and she won round one.... she may think.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

cpgrad08 said:

If my wife denied me the chance to see my child born, then I would file for divorce the next day.

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Thats very selfish.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

Hey I agree if the reason was for a medical need, and that could be true even of a father who was welcomed in the room, but by his actions was adding stress to the mother. But my sense in this case is that this woman is going to try to apply her personal reasons on other situations as well. I just think she needs to get over it. She made this baby with someone by choice, and she is going to have to deal with many more situations where she feels stressed over seeing the father. So is she going to be happy someday when her child asks dad if he was there when he/she was born, and dad says no your mother wouldn't let me?

So she got a judge to side with her and she won round one.... she may think.

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It is her medical procedure/health, not his. It is always her choice. She doesn't have to justify not letting him in with any medical reasons because if she doesn't want him there and he gets to stay it becomes stressful for her even if her initial reasoning was just to be mean or a jerk.

And I don't know how you got this "sense" that she would say this stuff for other things. From the beginning she agreed he could visit the child in the hospital. He was the one that kept pushing further. And if they are having issues working out the visitation/custody arrangements civilly between them, a judge will continue to be involved, but it will likely be a joint situation that causes this.

Some, like yourself, are labeling this as a him vs her fight that will continue on rather than them being able to work it out. And most of those labeling it as such are putting the blame for the situation on her rather than seeing that he pushed it.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

You are missing the point, the child belongs to both of them, that is the law.



Oh so now you want to use logic? Okay I'm game for that.

So what if the mother can't breastfeed, not all women can produce milk? Then what happens, the child goes to whoever can hold a bottle?

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The child belongs to both? I am sorry but that is nice for legal talk but normally the real burden always falls to the woman. Men might be forced to pay and if they are willing to be good parents they are such things a few times/few weekends a month but that is not the same as belonging to both. A father may or not get the same level of custody is not the same as "belonging to both of them".

I hope this person becomes a good father but his childish, selfish and immoral actions up to now have not given me much hope. I hope the mother and the father will work it out so that the child gets to know both parents but that will have to be seen in due course.

It is not just breastfeeding, it is getting up at all hours of the night feeding the child, getting up if the child cries at night with cramps etc., some dads are good at it and if they are true and equal partners both parents will be equally invested in this (or as much as is possible). But these parents didn't even make it up to the 9 months it took to get through the delivery date without legal briefs and a lawsuit.

How is that man going to have equal access and time with that child? They are not living together and I doubt it is in the best interest of the child to be handed over from one parent to the other parent every day or week. That is not a workable situation. Is the dad even able to take care of this child? Usually it is mothers who do all the heavy lifting in a child's life, especially in the USA. In parts of Europe men have way more time and have more equal rights compared with women when it comes to childrearing. Maybe in the US it will also be possible to do certain things in order to make fathers more involved in the raising of their children, especially if the parents are living together.

This however is not a case of parents who live together, equal access to the child is a nice idea but with 2 parents who do not live together that is hard to accomplish.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

OscarB63 said:

obviously the mother has all the rights and the father just gets to STFU and write the check.......

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He just does not have the right to be there during the birth.

Tantrum much?

Can you imagine.....there will hundreds of milestones in that childs life. Will he take her to court over each one?

People have the right to privacy. Men and Women. This is a power play and a waste of the court's time.

If she had not allowed him access immediately after birth.....I would call her out on it.

A woman wanted privacy and not to have added stress at a time that inherently is massively psychologically and physically stressful. If he does not care about the moms health and welfare during childbirth....it says a lot about his moral center.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

It is her medical procedure/health, not his. It is always her choice. She doesn't have to justify not letting him in with any medical reasons because if she doesn't want him there and he gets to stay it becomes stressful for her even if her initial reasoning was just to be mean or a jerk.

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So let me ask you, if a mother decides she doesn't want the father in the delivery room, would you say that should apply to any delivery? Lets say a mother had an argument with her husband about the baby name, and then ordered the father out of the delivery room because she said so. Do you believe she would have an absolute right to that as well?

roguenuke said:

And I don't know how you got this "sense" that she would say this stuff for other things. From the beginning she agreed he could visit the child in the hospital. He was the one that kept pushing further. And if they are having issues working out the visitation/custody arrangements civilly between them, a judge will continue to be involved, but it will likely be a joint situation that causes this.

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Obviously none of us knows what all of the personal issues there are between these two people. But we do know that the father had to hire a lawyer and go before a judge, so he felt very strongly about being present during the birth of his child. And who knows, maybe if there had been more time to appeal the lower judge's ruling, and higher court may have instituted a different decision? Not every judge gets these things right. I just believe that this woman was demanding privacy from a man who she wasn't "private with" for a long time. What would be so intrusive by allowing the father in the room, behind the woman so she doesn't have to see him, and her private area draped off? Delivery rooms do this all of the time.

roguenuke said:

Some, like yourself, are labeling this as a him vs her fight that will continue on rather than them being able to work it out. And most of those labeling it as such are putting the blame for the situation on her rather than seeing that he pushed it.

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Why shouldn't he push it? This is a child that he was having with a woman whom he was once engaged to. They made the decision to have the baby, keep the baby, and at one point be married. She is the one who was pushing him out of being there when his child was being born. She is the one who was denying her child from having a father who wanted to be there present for the birth. This isn't about one person; it's not even about two people; this about THREE people who will only have this happen one time.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

Hey I agree if the reason was for a medical need, and that could be true even of a father who was welcomed in the room, but by his actions was adding stress to the mother. But my sense in this case is that this woman is going to try to apply her personal reasons on other situations as well. I just think she needs to get over it. She made this baby with someone by choice, and she is going to have to deal with many more situations where she feels stressed over seeing the father. So is she going to be happy someday when her child asks dad if he was there when he/she was born, and dad says no your mother wouldn't let me?

So she got a judge to side with her and she won round one.... she may think.

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"Get over it?"

Seriously, we are talking about labor and delivery. Y'all are acting like that is a time that it is realistic for a woman to control those feelings at that time.:lamo

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Peter King said:

The child belongs to both? I am sorry but that is nice for legal talk but normally the real burden always falls to the woman. Men might be forced to pay and if they are willing to be good parents they are such things a few times/few weekends a month but that is not the same as belonging to both. A father may or not get the same level of custody is not the same as "belonging to both of them".

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The laws in your country may be different. But in the USA most parents are granted joint custody of their children unless a court finds reason why one parent may not be suitable for joint custody. In the state I live in 'joint custody' means shared custody and a court issues a schedule for that arrangement. Nobody knows the details of this case, and I'm not certain what the particular laws are in New Jersey. But it may turn out that this woman has to allow this father to have the child with him, in his home, under his care for half the time. It may also turn out that her insistence during the birth ends up with a custody battle situation that may be far less amicable than she anticipated. If it turns out that way, it might be said that she made a bad move. And who knows, it could also turn out with the father being given full custodial care of the child? If there were evidence of the mother using drugs or being unfit, a court could put the child fully with the father. That is how it goes sometimes, and that is why lawyers make a lot of money in these battles.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

year2late said:

"Get over it?"

Seriously, we are talking about labor and delivery. Y'all are acting like that is a time that it is realistic for a woman to control those feelings at that time.:lamo

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I don't believe any father should take a back seat to his own children under any circumstances.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

I don't believe any father should take a back seat to his own children under any circumstances.

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You're right a rapist should have the right to be at the delivery room for his rape baby from god right? Remember you said ANY father.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

So let me ask you, if a mother decides she doesn't want the father in the delivery room, would you say that should apply to any delivery? Lets say a mother had an argument with her husband about the baby name, and then ordered the father out of the delivery room because she said so. Do you believe she would have an absolute right to that as well?



Obviously none of us knows what all of the personal issues there are between these two people. But we do know that the father had to hire a lawyer and go before a judge, so he felt very strongly about being present during the birth of his child. And who knows, maybe if there had been more time to appeal the lower judge's ruling, and higher court may have instituted a different decision? Not every judge gets these things right. I just believe that this woman was demanding privacy from a man who she wasn't "private with" for a long time. What would be so intrusive by allowing the father in the room, behind the woman so she doesn't have to see him, and her private area draped off? Delivery rooms do this all of the time.




Why shouldn't he push it? This is a child that he was having with a woman whom he was once engaged to. They made the decision to have the baby, keep the baby, and at one point be married. She is the one who was pushing him out of being there when his child was being born. She is the one who was denying her child from having a father who wanted to be there present for the birth. This isn't about one person; it's not even about two people; this about THREE people who will only have this happen one time.

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I disagree. It is about one - the about to be baby. The fetus is best served transitioning from momland to outsidelands when mom is focused on the birthing process. If mom feels like dad is a distraction and causing her stress. That is her call. And frankly the doctor's as well!

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

I don't believe any father should take a back seat to his own children under any circumstances.

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A back seat to his children??What the heck are you talking about?

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

So let me ask you, if a mother decides she doesn't want the father in the delivery room, would you say that should apply to any delivery? Lets say a mother had an argument with her husband about the baby name, and then ordered the father out of the delivery room because she said so. Do you believe she would have an absolute right to that as well?

Obviously none of us knows what all of the personal issues there are between these two people. But we do know that the father had to hire a lawyer and go before a judge, so he felt very strongly about being present during the birth of his child. And who knows, maybe if there had been more time to appeal the lower judge's ruling, and higher court may have instituted a different decision? Not every judge gets these things right. I just believe that this woman was demanding privacy from a man who she wasn't "private with" for a long time. What would be so intrusive by allowing the father in the room, behind the woman so she doesn't have to see him, and her private area draped off? Delivery rooms do this all of the time.

Why shouldn't he push it? This is a child that he was having with a woman whom he was once engaged to. They made the decision to have the baby, keep the baby, and at one point be married. She is the one who was pushing him out of being there when his child was being born. She is the one who was denying her child from having a father who wanted to be there present for the birth. This isn't about one person; it's not even about two people; this about THREE people who will only have this happen one time.

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I believe that for any delivery. I don't care if she simply decided that he brought her the wrong kind of food for breakfast one morning that she doesn't want him in the room. It is still her choice, her right. Now, if he leaves her for denying him that privilege (especially if they did have a good relationship right up to that point), then so be it, and I'd say if it were a fairly trivial reason she had, then she is a lot to blame for the divorce. But it is still her absolute right to deny him into that delivery room.

I don't care what the reason is, it is still her right. Are there reasons that she denies the father of her baby access that would make me view her as a bitch? Sure. Is this one of them? Not without a lot more information, especially not after he took her to court over this.

And he shouldn't have fought it because it was pointless and made their relationship more strained even before their baby is born for his own selfishness. His being there is absolutely not necessary for his bonding with that baby and once the mother said "no", he should have just dropped it and been happy with what he would be allowed, seeing/holding the baby after she/he is born.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

Del Zeppnile said:

The laws in your country may be different. But in the USA most parents are granted joint custody of their children unless a court finds reason why one parent may not be suitable for joint custody. In the state I live in 'joint custody' means shared custody and a court issues a schedule for that arrangement. Nobody knows the details of this case, and I'm not certain what the particular laws are in New Jersey. But it may turn out that this woman has to allow this father to have the child with him, in his home, under his care for half the time. It may also turn out that her insistence during the birth ends up with a custody battle situation that may be far less amicable than she anticipated. If it turns out that way, it might be said that she made a bad move. And who knows, it could also turn out with the father being given full custodial care of the child? If there were evidence of the mother using drugs or being unfit, a court could put the child fully with the father. That is how it goes sometimes, and that is why lawyers make a lot of money in these battles.

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Joint custody does not mean that you have free and uninhibited access to your children at absolutely any time you want. You must share time with the other parent.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

TheNextEra said:

You're right a rapist should have the right to be at the delivery room for his rape baby from god right? Remember you said ANY father.

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LOL! What a typical response from a liberal, to take something completely out of context from the conversation and then attempt to apply to their argument.

Did that make you "feel" good? LOL

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

year2late said:

"Get over it?"

Seriously, we are talking about labor and delivery. Y'all are acting like that is a time that it is realistic for a woman to control those feelings at that time.:lamo

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The only time I've yelled at my husband at all in our 7 years of marriage and 8 1/2 years together was during the birth of our first child. (Now it was just to get him to go get the nurse because she left the room about 10 seconds before I got the urge to push, after having just told me to tell her immediately when I felt like I had to. He practically ran from the room.)

Honestly, its kinda sadistic to want to be in the room with a woman having a baby, knowing that she doesn't want you in there, so she isn't going to be comforted at all by your presence, and that you will be seeing her in extreme pain without even being able to give her comfort even if you want to.

Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

roguenuke said:

Joint custody does not mean that you have free and uninhibited access to your children at absolutely any time you want. You must share time with the other parent.

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I didn't say that it does. But we are back to the "which moments can't be shared" argument again. Although in all joint custody arrangements the courts allow for joint access to children during graduations, religious events like bar mitzvas and first communions because they must be shared, they cannot be divided. The after party may be different, but the other parent has a right to be included in special events with reasonable access.