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Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

The "Vote" for ??? is today Sunday. Wonder what it's like to vote in a booth with a Russian AK47 staring you in the face.
 
DaveFagan said:
Is this supposed to make it OK for the USA to fund and implement an insurrection?
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Remember, Dave: this a straw man argument that you created in your head. You keep assuming it's true and using it as a foundation for your arguments, but it's important to remember that you just made it up.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Remember, Dave: this a straw man argument that you created in your head. You keep assuming it's true and using it as a foundation for your arguments, but it's important to remember that you just made it up.
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That and even if true it does not justify Russias invasion and soon annexation of part of Ukraine.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Remember, Dave: this a straw man argument that you created in your head. You keep assuming it's true and using it as a foundation for your arguments, but it's important to remember that you just made it up.
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Talking points noted, but I have to believe you to be an ignoranus to actully believe what you say and I don't. Victoria Nuland, powerful State Department spokesperson, stated that when they changed the regime, that Yats would be the man to have in charge. A couple of weeks before the event happened, don't ya' know. No straw man involved. Was she on ACID? Did she misspeak? Is she clairvoyant? OOPS, her oral slip revealed the skullduggery at top levels. You can deny it, but you can't alter it. It happened and the cat is out of the bag. Get the gov't to change your bag so you sound minimally competent.
 
DaveFagan said:
Talking points noted
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There wasn't a talking point in that post. I was just reminding you that your argument is based upon your unsupported supposition. Is that just something you randomly say when responding to someone? You're assuming things and then arguing from that assumption, just keep that in mind.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Remember, Dave: this a straw man argument that you created in your head. You keep assuming it's true and using it as a foundation for your arguments, but it's important to remember that you just made it up.
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There is plenty of historical precedent of CIA involvement in the over throw other governments. Chili, Nicauraga, Guatemala (Iran-Contra), Afganistan just to name a few. The US and Russia have fought wars by proxy since WW2. So I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that there might be CIA involvement in the Ukraine protests.
 
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Moot said:
There is plenty of historical precedent of CIA involvement in the over throw other governments. Chili, Nicauraga, Guatemala (Iran-Contra), Afganistan just to name a few. The US and Russia have fought wars by proxy since WW2. So I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that there might be CIA involvement in the Ukraine protests.
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I understand all that, extremely well. But that doesn't prove anything. Beside that, Dave isn't saying the CIA might have been involved, he's saying they were involved. He's presenting it as fact and basing his argument upon it.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
There wasn't a talking point in that post. I was just reminding you that your argument is based upon your unsupported supposition. Is that just something you randomly say when responding to someone? You're assuming things and then arguing from that assumption, just keep that in mind.
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Swallow the turd, bubby. You've been wrong on this matter since day one. If you have something to prove, provide links.
 
DaveFagan said:
Swallow the turd, bubby. You've been wrong on this matter since day one. If you have something to prove, provide links.
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...I don't have to prove anything? I'm just pointing out that you're basing your argument on an assumption. I've reminded you of this for a few pages now. If you want to base everything on assumptions, that's fine. Not my preferred method but if you wanna do it, that's on you. I'm just making sure to mention it, since you refuse to.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
...I don't have to prove anything? I'm just pointing out that you're basing your argument on an assumption. I've reminded you of this for a few pages now. If you want to base everything on assumptions, that's fine. Not my preferred method but if you wanna do it, that's on you. I'm just making sure to mention it, since you refuse to.
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No links. Same as always. No links. Stop spouting gov't propaganda and try reality. Did you know that ambassador killed in Libya was a CIA spy. Obama's first job out of college with a CIA front company. Mena, Arkansas, CIA operation starring GWHBush, Billy Clintooon, Hilary Clinton, Oliver North, Terry Reed, BCCI, Noriega, and all with curious levels of deniability.
 
DaveFagan said:
No links. Same as always. No links. Stop spouting gov't propaganda and try reality. Did you know that ambassador killed in Libya was a CIA spy. Obama's first job out of college with a CIA front company. Mena, Arkansas, CIA operation starring GWHBush, Billy Clintooon, Hilary Clinton, Oliver North, Terry Reed, BCCI, Noriega, and all with curious levels of deniability.
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No links what? Proving a negative? Oooookay, Dave. lol
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I understand all that, extremely well. But that doesn't prove anything. Beside that, Dave isn't saying the CIA might have been involved, he's saying they were involved. He's presenting it as fact and basing his argument upon it.
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It doesn't not prove anything, either. Dave has historical precendent of previous CIA covert actions on his side....you have ear plugs.

International Police Association.

International Police Association - Home Page


I've never heard of them but their webpage says they are a "friendship" organization. So what are they doing at the protests in Kiev dressed like swat team?

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
 
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OldWorldOrder said:
No links what? Proving a negative? Oooookay, Dave. lol
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CIA drone brigade in Ukraine. My bold and underline.


US Drone "Intercepted" Over Crimea By Russian 'Self-Defense' Forces | Zero Hedge

"An American scout-attack drone was intercepted in the Crimean sky, the Rostec state corporation reports. "Judging by side marking, the MQ-5B drone was part of the 66th US brigade of military intelligence with the main location in Bavaria," the report on the website of the corporation reads.



According to the report, at the beginning of March, the American brigade was relocated to the Ukrainian Kirovohrad, from where drones commit reconnaissance raids in the direction of Crimea and Russian border areas.
"
 
Moot said:
It doesn't not prove anything, either.
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hahahahahahahahahahaha.

1- Did I ever say it did? Or did I say that Dave was acting as if his assumption (and that's all it is) was fact?

2- When you have to say the sentence "it doesn't not prove anything, either", you might need to rethink your life. That's...an absurd statement to make.

Dave has historical precendent of previous CIA covert actions on his side....you have ear plugs.
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I have the historical precedent of hundreds upon hundreds of domestic unrest in the past several centuries not having anything to do with the CIA. So actually I have the precedent....you guys have blinders. Unless you're now arguing that there's more domestic unrest caused by the CIA than not. Is that now your position? If there's domestic unrest anywhere, the chances are greater that it was the role of the big bad CIA than it was natural? That'd be funny, first of all, but then second of all, since there's no proof of that, it becomes, again, just an assumption.

International Police Association.

International Police Association - Home Page


I've never heard of them but their webpage says they are US "friendship" organization. So what are they doing at the protests in Kiev dressed like swat team?

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available
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Oh, must be a conspiracy, then. Must be the CIA. My bad. lol
 
DaveFagan said:
CIA drone brigade in Ukraine. My bold and underline.


US Drone "Intercepted" Over Crimea By Russian 'Self-Defense' Forces | Zero Hedge

"An American scout-attack drone was intercepted in the Crimean sky, the Rostec state corporation reports. "Judging by side marking, the MQ-5B drone was part of the 66th US brigade of military intelligence with the main location in Bavaria," the report on the website of the corporation reads.



According to the report, at the beginning of March, the American brigade was relocated to the Ukrainian Kirovohrad, from where drones commit reconnaissance raids in the direction of Crimea and Russian border areas.
"
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And yet even if it's true, it still wouldn't prove that the US created a coup. It would prove that the current Ukrainian government, however, invited US support. Great investigative work, Dave! It's too bad it has nothing to do with what you were trying to say.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
And yet even if it's true, it still wouldn't prove that the US created a coup. It would prove that the current Ukrainian government, however, invited US support. Great investigative work, Dave! It's too bad it has nothing to do with what you were trying to say.
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Nuland proved that the USA provoked a coup. This CIA operated, and the CIA operates the drones, has aircraft and support within the borders of Ukraine. That's invasion, like you stated about Crimea. There is no legitimate Gov't operating in Ukriane. The drones must follow boots on the ground to have an operating base, ergo were already in Ukraine. Of course, you know that, but are required to spout the Gov't line. You have my sympathy. Must be hard for anyone with half a brain.
 
DaveFagan said:
Nuland proved that the USA provoked a coup. This CIA operated, and the CIA operates the drones, has aircraft and support within the borders of Ukraine. That's invasion, like you stated about Crimea. There is no legitimate Gov't operating in Ukriane. The drones must follow boots on the ground to have an operating base, ergo were already in Ukraine. Of course, you know that, but are required to spout the Gov't line. You have my sympathy. Must be hard for anyone with half a brain.
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Okay, thank for the report from infowars.com. In the real world, though, to say something has been proven requires...ya know, proof.

All you do is assume, Dave. It's not a big deal, because you're not in a position of power, but it would be catastrophic if you were.
 
Remember the famous call?

Ukraine says not investigating bugging of U.S. diplomats phone talk | Reuters

Ukraine's state security service on Saturday said it was not investigating the bugging of a phone call between U.S. diplomats in which they weighed up which opposition leaders they should back for government in a reformed Ukraine.

U.S. diplomats tried to limit the damage on Friday after audio of the phone conversation was posted on the Internet. In it, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was heard using an expletive in reference to the European Union.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, already furious with Washington over reports that U.S. officials bugged her own phone, found Nuland's remarks "totally unacceptable", her spokeswoman said.
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Here's a picture of Victoria Nuland with Arseny Yatsenyuk, a.k.a. Yats, taken on February 6 BEFORE THE COUP.

r


Nuland has been Washington's point person on Ukraine since a crisis broke in the former Soviet republic last November, bringing thousands of protesters out onto the streets of Kiev.
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Here is Victoria Nuland passing out cookies to the protesters

1213-world-Nuland2_full_380.jpg


Here's the article from back in December

Russia cries foul over Western embrace of Ukraine's demonstrators - CSMonitor.com

Though Moscow has done plenty of economic arm-twisting in its geopolitical tug-of-war with the European Union over Ukraine's allegiance, Russian leaders have on the whole kept unusually quiet as pro-Europe demonstrators blocked the central streets of Kiev over the past two weeks, barricading government buildings and setting up a tent city on Independence Square.

Moscow's wait-and-see approach is a big departure from the Orange Revolution of 2004, when Vladimir Putin reacted to a similar outpouring of pro-Western sentiment by personally and repeatedly voicing support for the eastward-leaning countercurrent.

In contrast, US and European officials have shuttled through Kiev to scold the democratically elected government of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and often to schmooze with the protesters on Independence Square. On Wednesday, US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland handed out cookies and bread to cheering protesters.

Ms. Nuland told reporters that she'd had a "tough but realistic" conversation with Mr. Yanukovych and believed it was possible to save Ukraine's "European future" if the Ukrainian president showed "leadership."
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I wonder what the foul mouth diplomat said in that conversation. Maybe:

"Get out or we will kick your a$$ out!"

A little more from the article

State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki suggested the US might even impose sanctions on Ukraine, while the US government-funded think tank Freedom House called upon Yanukovych to resign and set early elections as "the only non-violent way to end the standoff with demonstrators."

And German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle toured the Independence Square protest camp with two opposition leaders and declared that "Ukraine should be on board with Europe."

All this prompted Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov to slam what he described as Western officials' out-of-line behavior Friday.

"Some of the comments that have been made by American officials over the last few days are shocking," Mr. Ryabkov said. "They are not even recommendations but bigoted demands that are put before the Ukrainian leadership, demands whose sharp wording reflects both a political course that we understand quite well and a certain play of emotions."
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One can only imagine Nuland saying:

"You either do as I tell you, or I'm gonna put my foot in your a$$!"
 
Moot said:
Or maybe the Right Sector live in western pro-Ukraine and traveled to eastern pro-Russian Ukraine to cause trouble.

Since you live in Florida then you must have heard of the Brooks Brother Riot.
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I don't live in Florida, I just used that as an example.

I'm sure that advocates of both sides traveled to that area and other areas; and that there are advocates of both sides that actually live in that area.

Trouble makers come in all shapes and forms. Just because a person is on the right side of argument doesn't mean that they will use peaceful means to advocate for their position.
 
Fallenangel said:
I usually don't.



a. Unique view, yeah sure.
b. I think you need to re-read this sentence in the post you were responding to:
I do not agree with that as their coverage is far from being unbiased, and moreover it suffers from a very poor analysis (if they analyse it at all) of the situation on the ground, as I explained in my previous post.
Not only that these videos don't present "raw" data but cut outs that fit a certain narrative, they also don't even try to properly analyse the data they do have/present creating a distorted image of what is happening on the ground, which helps one to "make up his own mind".



Imo you can keep posting whatever you want :shrug:, I am also free to call bs on it.

Fallen.
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Then we agree at least to disagree and that we have the right to call bs on each other. That's fine with me as well.
 
Moot said:
I don't think supporting far right extremists is a good thing to do. It didn't work for Chamberlin. If the interim government can keep the extremists at bay until a fair election is held in May....then we'll see. Until then, I think we will be seeing a lot more clashes and riots in Ukraine.
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Ummm...okay? The point is you asked why "pro-Ukrainian people" would be getting together...well, it is, ya know, in the country of Ukraine, so they really don't need an excuse.

Strawman. If you had a good arguement you wouldn't need to resort to such low brow tactics.
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What straw man? And an argument about what? What is it you think I'm arguing here, actually? Because it seems like you don't know. Anyway, when they show up, people here (you, in this case) ask why, say it's to start trouble, and are against it. When they don't show up, people here (not you, but others with your position) then make the argument that it's because they don't exist, period. So what could they do that wouldn't upset you guys? Not showing up means they don't exist, showing up means they want trouble. lol convenient.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Okay, thank for the report from infowars.com. In the real world, though, to say something has been proven requires...ya know, proof.

All you do is assume, Dave. It's not a big deal, because you're not in a position of power, but it would be catastrophic if you were.
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More CIA in Ukraine
CIA: Given Free Hand in Lithuania, Behind Color Revolution in Ukraine | Libya 360°
"CIA: Given Free Hand in Lithuania, Behind Color Revolution in Ukraine"

"Since recently the Central Intelligence Agency’s Lithuanian office has to deal with providing for the activities of non-government organizations in Ukraine which support the ongoing protests and organize resounding actions against «Russia’s interference into the internal affairs of Ukraine». They also counter «Russian propaganda». For instance, NTV channel was synchronously switched off a few minutes before it was to air the documentary Call Agent across the Baltic States-
"
 
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