Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

joko104 · Mar 16, 2014

The USA should acknowledge the Cold War is back on and form a NATO-like pact with Eastern European countries such as Poland, including military bases and nuclear armaments. We also should loudly declare Bosnia an imprisoned state calling for them to revolute if not allowed to vote to withdraw from Russian domination and all other regions of Russia to do the same. We should do the same for all regions on and within Russia's Southern border.

In that, Russia is outnumbered and with chaos on and within two of its borders. Russia no longer has the size, population or economic base it had as the USSR. Russia could not withstand the contest. The number of intense enemies by the tens of millions Russia has within and on their borders would overwhelm Russia and would push Russia into a monor and only regional power.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

OldWorldOrder said:
I'm just wondering if that would constitute an invasion. Because when you said:

Imo, an invasion would be something along the order of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, air support pouring across the borders, occupying the capital and capturing leaders and throwing resisters in prison or executing them. I saw none of that....unless you want to count the coup by the Ukraine opposition now occupying the capital, attacking pro-russians, etc.

...it kinda implies that you think it's actually impossible for the US to 'invade' any of the nations Beau mentioned.

Many countries don't want US bases in their country, but that doesn't seem to stop the US.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
Crimea isn't a district, it's a republic. Let the international observers decide if the vote is fair....

International monitors invited by Russia arrive in Crimea to observe Sunday's referendum to join Russia.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/russian-observers-arrive-crimea-referendum-064907738.html

Where are they from? Where will they be located? What will they be allowed to actually observe?

Why were the OCSE monitors run out of Crimea? Why were they fired upon by Russians?

Crimea: Warning shots fired to block monitors, amid claims of further Russian troop movements - YouTube

OldWorldOrder · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
Imo, an invasion would be something along the order of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, air support pouring across the borders, occupying the capital and capturing leaders and throwing resisters in prison or executing them. I saw none of that....unless you want to count the coup by the Ukraine opposition now occupying the capital, attacking pro-russians, etc.

I don't think that's really required. There are Russian troops that have seized areas.

Many countries don't want US bases in their country, but that doesn't seem to stop the US.

....So? I'm not sure of the relevance. Could the US invade South Korea? You seem to be saying it couldn't, because there's already tens of thousands of American troops there.

Fallenangel · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
and this one:

Nice "unbiased" coverage. lol

Those poor, poor, "peaceful anti-Russian demonstrators", I wonder though what makes them so innocent.
It must be their peaceful pepper gas that they peacefully prepared and brought with them, and the masks to protect their faces from the gas and from being seen, or it might be the red bands that they had on their arms so they would be able to "peacefully" distinguish between foe/friendly... or...ah I know... it was probably the peaceful bars made out of unknown hard substance that they peacefully held in their hands.

lol.

Fallen.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
Imo, an invasion would be something along the order of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, air support pouring across the borders, occupying the capital and capturing leaders and throwing resisters in prison or executing them. I saw none of that....unless you want to count the coup by the Ukraine opposition now occupying the capital, attacking pro-russians, etc.

Many countries don't want US bases in their country, but that doesn't seem to stop the US.

(emphasis added by me)

Maybe your looking at the wrong news sources, because that's exactly what is happening. Look at some of the news sources I gave you. The VICE page has hours of raw video (not the ones I posted) that have a multitude of actual video showing you what's really going on. Here are two examples if you want to take the time to get the facts:

This ones ten hours and forty-four minutes long (if you're committed to truth and really want the facts that is):

MadLib · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
Imo, an invasion would be something along the order of thousands of troops, tanks, artillery, air support pouring across the borders, occupying the capital and capturing leaders and throwing resisters in prison or executing them. I saw none of that....

That did happen to some extent, but the main aspect of an invasion is troops from one country entering another country without that latter country's consent. Since that's undeniably what occurred, what Russia did constitutes an invasion.

unless you want to count the coup by the Ukraine opposition now occupying the capital, attacking pro-russians, etc.

This is a ridiculous assertion. A nation cannot invade itself.

Many countries don't want US bases in their country, but that doesn't seem to stop the US.

We only have bases in foreign countries with express permission by treaties with those countries. If our troops poured out of those bases and took over large swaths of any of those countries, I would be condemning it as an invasion as well :2wave:

Lukas105 · Mar 16, 2014

Perhaps it IS the Western powers that have been aggressive since 1991. NATO already has Turkey, Norway, The Baltic States, Poland, and some Balkan countries. NATO is a Cold War relic, and only serves to threaten the Russian Federation into action to keep its "borderland" from the West.

TL;DR '
Russia doesn't want Ukraine or Belarus under European/NATO control because it will erase their "protection"/border countries with the West.

joko104 said:
The USA should acknowledge the Cold War is back on and form a NATO-like pact with Eastern European countries such as Poland, including military bases and nuclear armaments. We also should loudly declare Bosnia an imprisoned state calling for them to revolute if not allowed to vote to withdraw from Russian domination and all other regions of Russia to do the same. We should do the same for all regions on and within Russia's Southern border.

In that, Russia is outnumbered and with chaos on and within two of its borders. Russia no longer has the size, population or economic base it had as the USSR. Russia could not withstand the contest. The number of intense enemies by the tens of millions Russia has within and on their borders would overwhelm Russia and would push Russia into a monor and only regional power.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Fallenangel said:
Nice "unbiased" coverage. lol

Those poor, poor, "peaceful ant-Russian demonstrators", I wonder though what makes them so innocent.
It must be their peaceful pepper gas that they peacefully prepared and brought with them, and the masks to protect their faces from the gas and from being seen, or it might be the red bands that they had on their arms so they would be able to "peacefully" distinguish between foe/friendly... or...ah I know... it was probably the peaceful bars made out of unknown hard substance that they peacefully held in their hands.

lol.

Fallen.

Who was throwing the bricks? Who was throwing the explosives? Who was breaking through the police lines and attacking people?

I'm not saying that the Ukrainians are angels. I'm trying to show that I get info from a multitude of sources.

Have you ever heard of VICE? They are consistently doing reports and videos that make the US look bad.

If you think they're not unbiased, then maybe it's because the truth and facts are biased against your position. Ever thought about that? These guys are in no way pro-US, and in most cases could be considered anti-US.

Fallenangel · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
Who was throwing the bricks? Who was throwing the explosives? Who was breaking through the police lines and attacking people?

Pro-Russian demonstrators.

Beaudreaux said:
I'm not saying that the Ukrainians are angels. I'm trying to show that I get info from a multitude of sources.

You just posted a video that depicts strictly a single narrative throughout the entire video i.e supposedly the peaceful waving flags pro-unity (whatever it means) protesters being attacked by the pro-Russian mob, that is not what actually happened there.
What actually happened was a clash between pro-Russian fighters and the anti-Russian fighters, both groups came prepared and were organised, the pro-Russian group was bigger and won.
There were of course also peaceful demonstrators on both sides but these weren't the people that were fighting there.

Beaudreaux said:
Have you ever heard of VICE? They are consistently doing reports and videos that make the US look bad.

I couldn't care less about what Vice "journalists" think about the US.

Beaudreaux said:
If you think they're not unbiased, then maybe it's because the truth and facts are biased against your position. Ever thought about that? These guys are in no way pro-US, and in most cases could be considered anti-US.

No, I think that they are "unbiased", judging by their videos that you constantly post and by the poor analysis of the situation that they make in these videos.

Fallen.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
Why do I have to keep answering that same question?

I really don't know. Some people think if you repeat a lie often enough then it makes it true.

No. What are you watching? I watch video like this one:
[video=youtube;V9Dk2emDU0o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Dk2emDU0o[video]
and this one:
[video=youtube;ffYW3nlBwZk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYW3nlBwZk[video]
and this one:
[video=youtube;SKxRJ6Zqzdc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxRJ6Zqzdc[video]

As well as watch Ukrainian TV:

Espreso TV - LIVE - YouTube

RT:
On air ? RT

I used to watch Black Sea TV (Ukraine) but it's now off the air... imagine that.

Plus Turkish TV news, Poland news, and a number of the usual news outlets like CNN International, BBC and others.

Again, what do you use to get your news?

I like to find and analyze many sources, too. For instance, when western media reported the two people killed and several wounded in shoot out last week, they only tell half the story. Here is story from Yahoo and ABC....

http://news.yahoo.com/2-dead-shootout-eastern-ukraine-114102121.html

Ukraine Official: 2 Dead, Several Hurt in Shootout - ABC News

Here is same story from Ukraine News.....

Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv

Big difference, eh? Yahoo and ABC allude that the attacks that killed two people were Pro-Russian activists ...Ukraine news says opposite. Who is telling the truth?

Have I shown you enough sources to finally break you guys from asking that question? Just because I have information that you do not, and believe the facts on the ground rather than the propaganda, doesn't mean I'm reading too much western propaganda. It means you guys aren't reading enough facts from enough sources.

I take all the information, watch as much raw video (without comment from any one) and make up my own mind. Do you understand Russian? If not, you're the ones that are believing the propaganda if you believe the interpreter.

Then I'll be interested to know what you think about the ABC story vs Ukraine News story.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Fallenangel said:
Pro-Russian demonstrators.

You just posted a video that depicts strictly a single narrative throughout the entire video i.e supposedly the peaceful waving flags pro-unity (whatever it means) protesters being attacked by the pro-Russian mob, that is not what actually happened there.
What actually happened was a clash between pro-Russian fighters and the anti-Russian fighters, both groups came prepared and were organised, the pro-Russian group was bigger and won.
There were of course also peaceful demonstrators on both sides but these weren't the people that were fighting there.

I couldn't care less about what Vice "journalists" think about the US.

No, I think that they are "unbiased", judging by their videos that you constantly post and by the poor analysis of the situation that they make in these videos.

Fallen.

Like I said, I was responding to MOOT's question to me inferring that I read too much western biased media, and used those video's as just one example of many.

I can't figure out why you chose to comment, and of you like the videos or not. Either way, they were posted for MOOT in response to her question. Not as me trying to sell them as the best or singular source; just one of many and only for what they're worth to whomever watches or chooses not to watch.

Fallenangel · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
Like I said, I was responding to MOOT's question to me inferring that I read too much western biased media, and used those video's as just one example of many.

I can't figure out why you chose to comment, and of you like the videos or not. Either way, they were posted for MOOT in response to her question. Not as me trying to sell them as the best or singular source; just one of many and only for what they're worth to whomever watches or chooses not to watch.

I chose to comment, because you seem to constantly promote these Vice videos as some kind of a quality unbiased source for information regarding Ukraine.
I do not agree with that as their coverage is far from being unbiased, and moreover it suffers from a very poor analysis (if they analyse it at all) of the situation on the ground, as I explained in my previous post.

Fallen.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
I really don't know. Some people think if you repeat a lie often enough then it makes it true.

I like to find and analyze many sources, too. For instance, when western media reported the two people killed and several wounded in shoot out last week, they only tell half the story. Here is story from ABC....

Ukraine Official: 2 Dead, Several Hurt in Shootout - ABC News

Here is same story from Ukraine News.....

Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv

Big difference, eh? ABC alludes that the attacks that killed two people were from Pro-Russian activists...Ukraine news says opposite. Who is telling the truth?

Then I'll be interested to know what you think about the ABC story vs Ukraine News story.

I have no idea which is true and which is not. I take all the information and see what parts of the stories line up, and then see what parts are so far abroad that they are conjecture or true propaganda rather than fact.

In this case, the ABC report was actually a reprint from Associated Press and stated both sides without blaming any one side. They seemed to give both the Ukrainian and Russian versions. The Ukrainian News site you posted is one that I go to also. They give the Pro-Russian side most of the time, as does KyivPost / Independence. Community. Trust gives the Pro-Ukraine side most of the time.

I'm not a big fan of ABC. AP is a reasonably unbiased source, and I would presume that ABC printed their article without edit.

EDIT: I forgot to answer your question. I would give a little more credence to the Ukraine News in this instance, since the AP story was ambiguous.

Grant · Mar 16, 2014

Lukas105 said:
Perhaps it IS the Western powers that have been aggressive since 1991. NATO already has Turkey, Norway, The Baltic States, Poland, and some Balkan countries. NATO is a Cold War relic, and only serves to threaten the Russian Federation into action to keep its "borderland" from the West.

TL;DR '
Russia doesn't want Ukraine or Belarus under European/NATO control because it will erase their "protection"/border countries with the West.

If the West wanted to invade Russia do you really believe a 'protection' border country would help? That would be a WWI or WWII strategy perhaps.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Fallenangel said:
I chose to comment, because you seem to constantly promote these Vice videos as some kind of a quality unbiased source for information regarding Ukraine.
I do not agree with that as their coverage is far from being unbiased, and moreover it suffers from a very poor analysis (if they analyse it at all) of the situation on the ground, as I explained in my previous post.

Fallen.

Then don't watch them. I watch them as well as other similar sites because they give a unique view that no one else gives, without much analysis (even though it appears you prefer someone else opinion rather than raw data) that allows me to make up my own mind.

If it pisses you off, ignore it. I've only posted a few of their videos and only in response to someone asking a question that the video can either answer or explain as was the case here.

Ignore them. If the Mods ask me to stop, I will.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

MadLib said:
That did happen to some extent, but the main aspect of an invasion is troops from one country entering another country without that latter country's consent. Since that's undeniably what occurred, what Russia did constitutes an invasion.

This is a ridiculous assertion. A nation cannot invade itself.

Tell that to the South. lol

We only have bases in foreign countries with express permission by treaties with those countries. If our troops poured out of those bases and took over large swaths of any of those countries, I would be condemning it as an invasion as well :2wave:

It's a good point...except that Crimea is more ethnic Russian than ethnic Ukraine. Is it possible they felt threatened by the new regime's anti-russian sentiments?

OldWorldOrder · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
It's a good point...except that Crimea is more ethnic Russian than ethnic Ukraine. Is it possible they felt threatened by the new regime's anti-russian sentiments?

Okay, but that would be a possible reason for the invasion, not an argument against an invasion occurring.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
I have no idea which is true and which is not. I take all the information and see what parts of the stories line up, and then see what parts are so far abroad that they are conjecture or true propaganda rather than fact.

In the video you posted of the pro-russian mob attacking the pro-ukraine activists....did you notice that the pro-ukraines had tear gas, masks and metal pipes? Just because they were outnumbered doesn't mean they didn't come prepared for a fight or to cause trouble. What were they doing at a pro-russia rally in eastern Ukraine, anyway?

In this case, the ABC report was actually a reprint from Associated Press and stated both sides without blaming any one side. They seemed to give both the Ukrainian and Russian versions. The Ukrainian News site you posted is one that I go to also. They give the Pro-Russian side most of the time, as does KyivPost / Independence. Community. Trust gives the Pro-Ukraine side most of the time.

I'm not a big fan of ABC. AP is a reasonably unbiased source, and I would presume that ABC printed their article without edit.

EDIT: I forgot to answer your question. I would give a little more credence to the Ukraine News in this instance, since the AP story was ambiguous.

I have to agree, the Ukraine story gave a lot more information...even addresses. The Yahoo story I added after you responded but it gives the impression that the pro-russian side were the aggressors in the attack that killed two people....

"...Details of the Friday night shooting in the city of Kharkiv were murky, but local news reports said it broke out after a skirmish between pro-Russia demonstrators and their opponents.

A spokesman for Right Sector in eastern Ukraine, Igor Moseichuk, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying the shooting was a "planned provocation by pro-Russian forces."...."

2 dead in shootout in eastern Ukraine

If someone had only read the Yahoo story they might think that Pro-Russian activists were the aggressors that got two people killed.

Beaudreaux · Mar 16, 2014

Moot said:
In the video you posted of the pro-russian mob attacking the pro-ukraine activists....did you notice that the pro-ukraines had tear gas, masks and metal pipes? Just because they were outnumbered doesn't mean they didn't come prepared for a fight or to cause trouble. What were they doing in pro-russia eastern Ukraine, anyway?

I have to agree, the Ukraine story gave a lot more information...even addresses. The Yahoo story I added after you responded but it gives the impression that the pro-russian side were the aggressors in the attack that killed two people....

2 dead in shootout in eastern Ukraine

If someone had only read the Yahoo story they might think that Pro-Russian activists were the aggressors that got two people killed.

Maybe they live there? It's their country even if they don't live in that city. We had people from all over demonstrating in Florida about the court case that shall go unnamed.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
Maybe they live there? It's their country even if they don't live in that city. We had people from all over demonstrating in Florida about the court case that shall go unnamed.

Or maybe the Right Sector live in western pro-Ukraine and traveled to eastern pro-Russian Ukraine to cause trouble.

Since you live in Florida then you must have heard of the Brooks Brother Riot.

OldWorldOrder · Mar 16, 2014

Or maybe a pro-Ukraine demonstration going on in the country of Ukraine isn't really a good thing to demonize if you're trying to make an argument about how Ukraine is the bad guy.

Or maybe if they didn't show up, people like you would (shoot, you have) argue that that meant there was almost 100% support for Crimea returning to Russia. And if they do, then they're causing trouble. Either way, a talking point able to further your agenda.

Moot · Mar 16, 2014

OldWorldOrder said:
Or maybe a pro-Ukraine demonstration going on in the country of Ukraine isn't really a good thing to demonize if you're trying to make an argument about how Ukraine is the bad guy.

I don't think supporting far right extremists is a good thing to do. It didn't work for Chamberlin. If the interim government can keep the extremists at bay until a fair election is held in May....then we'll see. Until then, I think we will be seeing a lot more clashes and riots in Ukraine.

Or maybe if they didn't show up, people like you would (shoot, you have) argue that that meant there was almost 100% support for Crimea returning to Russia. And if they do, then they're causing trouble. Either way, a talking point able to further your agenda.

Strawman. If you had a good arguement you wouldn't need to resort to such low brow tactics.

Fallenangel · Mar 16, 2014

Beaudreaux said:
Then don't watch them.

I usually don't.

Beaudreaux said:
I watch them as well as other similar sites because they give a unique view that no one else gives, without much analysis (even though it appears you prefer someone else opinion rather than raw data) that allows me to make up my own mind.

a. Unique view, yeah sure.
b. I think you need to re-read this sentence in the post you were responding to:
I do not agree with that as their coverage is far from being unbiased, and moreover it suffers from a very poor analysis (if they analyse it at all) of the situation on the ground, as I explained in my previous post.
Not only that these videos don't present "raw" data but cut outs that fit a certain narrative, they also don't even try to properly analyse the data they do have/present creating a distorted image of what is happening on the ground, which helps one to "make up his own mind".

Beaudreaux said:
If it pisses you off, ignore it. I've only posted a few of their videos and only in response to someone asking a question that the video can either answer or explain as was the case here.
Ignore them. If the Mods ask me to stop, I will.

Imo you can keep posting whatever you want :shrug:, I am also free to call bs on it.

Fallen.

Quag · Mar 16, 2014

DaveFagan said:
It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization. There hand picked stooge is in charge, and nobody , except Yanukovych was actually elected. Face facts. It's a US backed plot to force privatization of the Energy bottleneck industries in Ukraine. This is not and never has been a spontaneous reveolt for freedom, liberty, democracy or justice. It is an economic power grab and it will also boost the MIC players in the USA at a time tehy are fearing budget cuts.. It's a USA win-win for business. War is good business. Threats of war are good business. What's good for business is good for the USA, especially anything in the energy or arms businesses. Wars are good marketing , if you're in the business, and we are.

Can you back any of that up?
Even if true it does not give Russia the right to invade another country.

Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

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