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Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

I see your position:

Okay. To use that form of logic, would the British, or Germans or Japanese feel we had invaded if we took our troops from our bases, blasted the doors down to their parliament, put our guys in charge and then called for a vote with the polling places staffed by armed US military?

Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy.

What happened in Ukraine is very similar to how the US came to be. That was more a vision of Democratic revolution than what the Russians are doing in Crimea.

Putin is defending Russian neighbors, relatives, friends, and emigres and doing a fine job of it, especially compared to the chaos, firebombing and deaths in Kiev. Probably caused by the bozone layer. No matter how you slice it, Putin is the one standing on high moral ground. the others suffer from bozone induced osteopornosis, same as many posters on this board.
 
Who said Russia invaded?

Mexico would've been a better analogy since US has invaded it in the past and took/stole a lot of their territory.

Let's see. There are armed Russian military personnel controlling every government facility, public facility, news outlet, all utility and infrastructure, and in control of every public transportation mode within the Crimea as well as has entrenched military defensive positions along the border such as barbed wire, anti-personnel mines, maned checkpoints, artillery and armor... pointed at Ukraine and the civilians of Crimea. Oh, and now they've moved across the Crimean border in Ukraine proper and are continually moving more and more troops, armor and equipment across the border into Crimea and Ukraine proper.

How in the world of common sense is this not an invasion, occupation and military intervention by one country into another sovereign country?
 
Putin is defending Russian neighbors, relatives, friends, and emigres and doing a fine job of it, especially compared to the chaos, firebombing and deaths in Kiev. Probably caused by the bozone layer. No matter how you slice it, Putin is the one standing on high moral ground. the others suffer from bozone induced osteopornosis, same as many posters on this board.

High moral ground? You must be kidding?

Putin defending neighbors, relatives and friends? Yup, that's all a country needs to invade another.

Too bad that nothing actually happened in Crimea to require such protection.

So, if I don't like it if my neighbors get into a fight, I can go over, take control of their property and keep them at gun point until they sign over their property to me, since I'd just be protecting my other neighbors, my relatives and my family? I would have the moral high ground wouldn't I?

Seriously?
 
High moral ground? You must be kidding?

Putin defending neighbors, relatives and friends? Yup, that's all a country needs to invade another.

Too bad that nothing actually happened in Crimea to require such protection.

So, if I don't like it if my neighbors get into a fight, I can go over, take control of their property and keep them at gun point until they sign over their property to me, since I'd just be protecting my other neighbors, my relatives and my family? I would have the moral high ground wouldn't I?

Seriously?

No, you should hire Academi (Blackwater) to rough them up and then firebomb them and them snipe a few of them. Nobobdy will know it is Academi because they will not be wearing patches, insignia, etc. and you can blame it on Russians. Then you oughta be able to buy their property cheap.
 
No, you should hire Academi (Blackwater) to rough them up and then firebomb them and them snipe a few of them. Nobobdy will know it is Academi because they will not be wearing patches, insignia, etc. and you can blame it on Russians. Then you oughta be able to buy their property cheap.

I understand your rage, but there's no proof.

The proof we DO have is what Russia IS doing.

You can support that if you wish, I prefer to support free people to make their own choices, without the threat of military force against them.
 
I understand your rage, but there's no proof.

The proof we DO have is what Russia IS doing.

You can support that if you wish, I prefer to support free people to make their own choices, without the threat of military force against them.

They're voting in Crimea. They're not voting in Kiev. Proof.
 
I see your alleged point, so explain why the Crimeans seem real pleased by their regime continuity under Russian auspices. No 100 dead protestors and policemen, no firebombs, no Victoria Nuland passing out rolls to alleged protestors.. No phone calls stating who will be in charge. Straight up and to the point loyalty to Russia, or not, as this election will demonstrate. Hot dam, but it sounds like democracy.
Then the Russians must be perfectly fine with international observers monitoring the legitimacy of the referendum.
Ukraine sounds like usurpers.

Actually, they're trying to keep their territorial integrity. Territorial integrity's why one part of a country can't unilaterally secede from the rest of the country, regardless of the level of support for secession within that area.
 
Let's see. There are armed Russian military personnel controlling every government facility, public facility, news outlet, all utility and infrastructure, and in control of every public transportation mode within the Crimea as well as has entrenched military defensive positions along the border such as barbed wire, anti-personnel mines, maned checkpoints, artillery and armor... pointed at Ukraine and the civilians of Crimea. Oh, and now they've moved across the Crimean border in Ukraine proper and are continually moving more and more troops, armor and equipment across the border into Crimea and Ukraine proper.


How in the world of common sense is this not an invasion, occupation and military intervention by one country into another sovereign country?

How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000(?) troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv
 
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There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement.

Do you really think that the agreement allows Russia to occupy Crimea without Ukraine's consent and evict Ukrainian forces from their bases?
 
Then the Russians must be perfectly fine with international observers monitoring the legitimacy of the referendum.


Actually, they're trying to keep their territorial integrity. Territorial integrity's why one part of a country can't unilaterally secede from the rest of the country, regardless of the level of support for secession within that area.

What good is territorial integrity if you don't have political and legislative integrity. Politicians sold to teh highest bidder, just like in the good ol' USA, eh?
 
Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

That's not relevant. It's still an invasion if the territory seized is of the same ethnic group as the occupying nation.
 
How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000 troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv

As I said to someone else earlier...

If the US moved our troops out of our bases in Britain, Germany and Japan, blew the doors down on their Parliaments, installed our guy in as the new leader, called for a vote for them to join the US while having armed US military at each polling station, took complete control of their press, their utilities and infrastructure, blocked their navies from being able to move, controlled all traffic in and out of their countries, prohibited any demonstrations against our actions and imprisoned anyone that tried, brought additional troops, armor and weapons into Britain, Germany and Japan to ensure we could annex them into the US, and any of the other militaristic actions that Russia has taken in Ukraine, would you feel that was an invasion by the US?
 
Do you really think that the agreement allows Russia to occupy Crimea without Ukraine's consent and evict Ukrainian forces from their bases?

I believe the Russians are signatory to the same treaty that the USA is to protect Ukrainians and they're doing allot better job than we are. Lots of dead in Kiev. Our boy, Yats is in charge there. Legerdemain or clairvoyance and the mystical neocon Victoria Nuland just happened to annoit him as Yanukovych's successor a few weeks before the actual coronation. What a coinky-dink, eh? Clairvoyance or she hires a really good soothsayer or it was part of the plan. What plan, you say. Why, the spontaneous revolution for regime change says I. Whoa, stop rigth there. You can't plan spontaneity. Don't tell Victoria, but she's paid six figures to plan, not guess, eh?
 
How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000(?) troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv

What?

Russia already invaded Ukraine, militarily defeated and is occupying the Ukraine region of Crimea. Under the gun of the Russian military the parliament for the Crimea district of Ukraine acknowledged they were unless Russian military control in their vote. Calling that vote democracy is absurd.
 
That's not relevant. It's still an invasion if the territory seized is of the same ethnic group as the occupying nation.

Maybe we should allow Mexico to occupy and annex southern California, southern Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and a few neighborhoods near me???

I just don't understand their thought process here.

Maybe we should annex some of the Japanese islands that have a majority American population since we have military bases there. I seriously doubt the Japanese would agree.
 
Do you really think that the agreement allows Russia to occupy Crimea without Ukraine's consent and evict Ukrainian forces from their bases?

It's hard to say what people will believe anymore. They seem to confuse feelings with facts.
 
As I said to someone else earlier...

If the US moved our troops out of our bases in Britain, Germany and Japan, blew the doors down on their Parliaments, installed our guy in as the new leader, called for a vote for them to join the US while having armed US military at each polling station, took complete control of their press, their utilities and infrastructure, blocked their navies from being able to move, controlled all traffic in and out of their countries, prohibited any demonstrations against our actions and imprisoned anyone that tried, brought additional troops, armor and weapons into Britain, Germany and Japan to ensure we could annex them into the US, and any of the other militaristic actions that Russia has taken in Ukraine, would you feel that was an invasion by the US?


Check all the doors and windows. You don't seem to be getting enough oxygen. Ifs? Fantasys? If they aren't wearing patches or insignias, they are Academi (Blackwater). See what I mean?
 
Check all the doors and windows. You don't seem to be getting enough oxygen. Ifs? Fantasys? If they aren't wearing patches or insignias, they are Academi (Blackwater). See what I mean?

Dude, take a break.

You honestly believe what you're saying? Or are you being sarcastic?
 
Poe's law in full effect.
 
As I said to someone else earlier...

If the US moved our troops out of our bases in Britain, Germany and Japan, blew the doors down on their Parliaments, installed our guy in as the new leader, called for a vote for them to join the US while having armed US military at each polling station, took complete control of their press, their utilities and infrastructure, blocked their navies from being able to move, controlled all traffic in and out of their countries, prohibited any demonstrations against our actions and imprisoned anyone that tried, brought additional troops, armor and weapons into Britain, Germany and Japan to ensure we could annex them into the US, and any of the other militaristic actions that Russia has taken in Ukraine, would you feel that was an invasion by the US?

Is it possible that you've been reading too much western propaganda? The news coming out of western media is just as one sided and subjective as the Kremlins.
 
Is it possible that you've been reading too much western propaganda? The news coming out of western media is just as one sided and subjective as the Kremlins.

I'm just wondering if that would constitute an invasion. Because when you said:


How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000(?) troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government?

...it kinda implies that you think it's actually impossible for the US to 'invade' any of the nations Beau mentioned.
 
What?

Russia already invaded Ukraine, militarily defeated and is occupying the Ukraine region of Crimea. Under the gun of the Russian military the parliament for the Crimea district of Ukraine acknowledged they were unless Russian military control in their vote. Calling that vote democracy is absurd.
Crimea isn't a district, it's a republic. Let the international observers decide if the vote is fair....

International monitors invited by Russia arrive in Crimea to observe Sunday's referendum to join Russia.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/russian-observers-arrive-crimea-referendum-064907738.html
 
Is it possible that you've been reading too much western propaganda? The news coming out of western media is just as one sided and subjective as the Kremlins.

Why do I have to keep answering that same question?

No. What are you watching? I watch video like this one:

and this one:

and this one:


As well as watch Ukrainian TV:

Espreso TV - LIVE - YouTube

RT:
On air ? RT

I used to watch Black Sea TV (Ukraine) but it's now off the air... imagine that.

Plus Turkish TV news, Poland news, and a number of the usual news outlets like CNN International, BBC and others.

Again, what do you use to get your news?

Have I shown you enough sources to finally break you guys from asking that question? Just because I have information that you do not, and believe the facts on the ground rather than the propaganda, doesn't mean I'm reading too much western propaganda. It means you guys aren't reading enough facts from enough sources.

I take all the information, watch as much raw video (without comment from any one) and make up my own mind. Do you understand Russian? If not, you're the ones that are believing the propaganda if you believe the interpreter.
 
I agree. However, the fact that these politicians impeached Yanukovych demonstrates the fact that his ouster was not a neo-Nazi coup.
That fact simply demonstrated that they wanted to save their own political and maybe even actual behinds, that is all.

That's how it is in the US, too, except we only have two parties.

If I had to guess, the decision of Yanukovych's own party to back his impeachment stems more from politicking than ideology. He's extremely dangerous to keep from a political standpoint, considering how much Ukrainians hate him.
Yanukovich was a political zombie by the time of his supposed impeachment.
He was hated in all parts of the country, even those that voted for him into his presidency seat were beginning to get frustrated and disillusioned with him.

...and I doubt that you would find any good parallel between US/European political life and the "criminal/oligarch/family" absolutely corrupt political system that existed, and unfortunately still exists in Ukraine, as the same people that stole from Ukraine before Yanukovich simply got back to rule once more.

Oh, I'm not denying the fact that these scum have their presence or that they're benefiting from the revolution. I just object to the notion that the entire movement is being directed by their hands. Unfortunately, every revolution has its extremists, and I just hope that the moderates will be able to marginalize their influence and bring Ukraine into the Western world.
BTW, even when we disagree, you tend to present well-written and thoughtful arguments. Keep it up :)

This "revolution" isn't being directed by the Nazis and the nationalist. However, as can be seen throughout the protests in Maidan and from the more recent clashes in the East of the country these people indeed represent the more organised, coordinated and active part of the "revolution".
Furthermore, Tyagniboks' current political status as one of the winners of the revolution provides them with the window they need to enter the Ukrainian political life as a powerful and influential player, hence I don't see any reason to why they would be suddenly marginalized - there is simply no one that can do it in modern Ukraine.

My problem with what you initially written is pretty much the same problem I have with a lot of the media coverage that comes from Western media sources.
While Russian government affiliated news channels are promoting one extreme version of the situation i.e. Nazis took control over Ukraine, the Western media tries to downplay the role of such groups in the revolution. The Russian propaganda is crude and easy to spot, whereas the Western media simply omits or/and doesn't cover/poorly analyses certain situations, thus creating a certain image which is often incomplete or simply false.

Russians are playing the usual Nazi card, as it is the easiest card to play in-order to get support on the "home front" in Russia, but imo a lot of Western media plays their regular card as well i.e "evil Putin, evil empire..." vs "democracy, liberty..." instead of actually analyzing what's happening on the ground.


:)

Cheers,
Fallen.
 
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