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Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

MildSteel said:
Remember the famous call?

Ukraine says not investigating bugging of U.S. diplomats phone talk | Reuters

Here's a picture of Victoria Nuland with Arseny Yatsenyuk, a.k.a. Yats, taken on February 6 BEFORE THE COUP.

r


...<snip>
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Great post. The guy in the photo on the far left is Oleh Tyahnybok the leader of the far right nationalist party, Svoboda. That photo is probably raising a lot of hairs.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Ummm...okay? The point is you asked why "pro-Ukrainian people" would be getting together...well, it is, ya know, in the country of Ukraine, so they really don't need an excuse.
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Well, ya know, "pro-russian people" aren't from Russia and you missed the point by a mile.

What straw man? And an argument about what? What is it you think I'm arguing here, actually? Because it seems like you don't know. Anyway, when they show up, people here (you, in this case) ask why, say it's to start trouble, and are against it. When they don't show up, people here (not you, but others with your position) then make the argument that it's because they don't exist, period. So what could they do that wouldn't upset you guys? Not showing up means they don't exist, showing up means they want trouble. lol convenient.
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You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?
 
Beaudreaux said:
I don't live in Florida, I just used that as an example.

I'm sure that advocates of both sides traveled to that area and other areas; and that there are advocates of both sides that actually live in that area.

Trouble makers come in all shapes and forms. Just because a person is on the right side of argument doesn't mean that they will use peaceful means to advocate for their position.
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"Just because" some protestors wear nazi symbols and have a nazi ideology "doesn't mean" they're nazi's. Really?


You don't have to live in Florida to know about the Brook Brothers Riot.
 
Moot said:
"Just because" some protestors wear nazi symbols and have a nazi ideology "doesn't mean" they're nazi's. Really?


You don't have to live in Florida to know about the Brook Brothers Riot.
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What? Nazi's? Reductio ad Hitlerum. Some of the protestors were priests as well. Does that make them all priests. Some were woman, are they all women?

That riot you mentioned has nothing to so with this.

At this point, I'm extracting myself from the attempts of others to cloud the true issue, which is... At what point in your mind, does any of this give Russia the right to invade another sovereign nation and take control with their military that they have a signed treaty with that country that precludes such military aggression?
 
DaveFagan said:
Nuland proved that the USA provoked a coup. This CIA operated, and the CIA operates the drones, has aircraft and support within the borders of Ukraine. That's invasion, like you stated about Crimea. There is no legitimate Gov't operating in Ukriane. The drones must follow boots on the ground to have an operating base, ergo were already in Ukraine. Of course, you know that, but are required to spout the Gov't line. You have my sympathy. Must be hard for anyone with half a brain.
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No legitimate government operating in the Ukraine?? What would you call the Ukrainian Parliament??

All these fanciful conspiracy theories only make your position ever more foolish.
 
DaveFagan said:
More CIA in Ukraine
CIA: Given Free Hand in Lithuania, Behind Color Revolution in Ukraine | Libya 360°
"CIA: Given Free Hand in Lithuania, Behind Color Revolution in Ukraine"

"Since recently the Central Intelligence Agency’s Lithuanian office has to deal with providing for the activities of non-government organizations in Ukraine which support the ongoing protests and organize resounding actions against «Russia’s interference into the internal affairs of Ukraine». They also counter «Russian propaganda». For instance, NTV channel was synchronously switched off a few minutes before it was to air the documentary Call Agent across the Baltic States-
"
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Thanks for that post from a blog. That was cool. He seems to know almost as much about the inner workings of the CIA as you do!
 
Beaudreaux said:
What? Nazi's? Reductio ad Hitlerum. Some of the protestors were priests as well. Does that make them all priests. Some were woman, are they all women?

That riot you mentioned has nothing to so with this.

At this point, I'm extracting myself from the attempts of others to cloud the true issue, which is... At what point in your mind, does any of this give Russia the right to invade another sovereign nation and take control with their military that they have a signed treaty with that country that precludes such military aggression?
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I get the feeling that those arguing on Russia's right to invade, while bringing up the CIA boogeyman, are relics from the Cold War who wept openly when the Wall came down. Now they are looking for a comeback and spouting the same propaganda and lies that was so commonplace during the Cold War. There doesn't seem to be any other logical explanation for their craziness.
 
Moot said:
Well, ya know, "pro-russian people" aren't from Russia and you missed the point by a mile.
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I never said they were. This is the second time today I've had to remind you that you're discussing this with me and what I said, not what you wished I would've said in order to make your point. Beau said:

Beaudreaux said:
Maybe they live there? It's their country even if they don't live in that city. We had people from all over demonstrating in Florida about the court case that shall go unnamed.
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You replied:

Moot said:
Or maybe the Right Sector live in western pro-Ukraine and traveled to eastern pro-Russian Ukraine to cause trouble.
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And I said a pro-Ukrainian demonstration really doesn't need an excuse to happen in Ukraine.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?
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That probably confused you greatly, I'm sorry. I'll type slower next time.
 
Grant said:
I get the feeling that those arguing on Russia's right to invade, while bringing up the CIA boogeyman, are relics from the Cold War who wept openly when the Wall came down. Now they are looking for a comeback and spouting the same propaganda and lies that was so commonplace during the Cold War. There doesn't seem to be any other logical explanation for their craziness.
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I don't think so. Honestly, I think they're anti-government (US government, of course, they don't care about any others) types. They're sick of "the Man" and "the Establishment" and "Media bias" and "the Illuminati" and whatever else they contrive to explain why they feel they've been put down. So anything that looks like it's sticking its thumb in the eye of all/any/some of those things? They support it. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. They see the world in black and white, good and evil: they found out at some point that the US wasn't the good guy they had always been told it was- that it was just looking after its own interests? Then it must be evil. And they fight it tooth and nail. Putin fights it? Then they love Putin.
 
Beaudreaux said:
What? Nazi's? Reductio ad Hitlerum. Some of the protestors were priests as well. Does that make them all priests. Some were woman, are they all women?

That riot you mentioned has nothing to so with this.

At this point, I'm extracting myself from the attempts of others to cloud the true issue, which is... At what point in your mind, does any of this give Russia the right to invade another sovereign nation and take control with their military that they have a signed treaty with that country that precludes such military aggression?
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Russia never really left Crimea and Crimea never really left Russia. The Black Fleet Navy has been in Crimea since the USSR was in power. The majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russian and born under USSR and have very little in common with Ukraine either culturally or economically.

au·ton·o·my : the state of existing or acting separately from others : the power or right of a country, group, etc., to govern itself

Is Crimea an autonomous republic or not? It isn't much of an autonomy if their only choice in the referendum is which of two countries they want to lord over them. Legal or not, they voted to stay with Russia mainly because they don't want to be part of a far right wing nationalist government that hates ethnic speaking Russians.

The irony is that the pro-Ukraines had a lot of support for independence from russian speaking people...until they tried to ban the russian language and threaten ethnic Russians.
 
Moot said:
Russia never really left Crimea and Crimea never really left Russia. The Black Fleet Navy has been in Crimea since the USSR was in power. The majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russian and born under USSR and have very little in common with Ukraine either culturally or economically.

au·ton·o·my : the state of existing or acting separately from others : the power or right of a country, group, etc., to govern itself

Is Crimea an autonomous republic or not? It isn't much of an autonomy if their only choice in the referendum is which of two countries they want to lord over them. Legal or not, they voted to stay with Russia mainly because they don't want to be part of a far right wing nationalist government that hates ethnic speaking Russians.

The irony is that the pro-Ukraines had a lot of support for independence from russian speaking people...until they tried to ban the russian language and threaten ethnic Russians.
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Ahhhh... an English lesson. Fun. Maybe you should use the entire term, not just one word of the term.

Crimea was made part of Ukraine by the USSR and subsequently permanently given to Ukraine by Russia later.

Autonomous region is the term. Not autonomous country. An autonomous region is also the definition of a state within the United States of America.

Nice try though. The rest of your post has been addressed numerous times. Ethnicity of the population has nothing to do with which country has sovereign power over the region. As we've discussed many times already in this thread, under that illogical precedence, Mexico could claim Southern California or Brownsville, Texas. Or the US could claim some of the Japanese islands since US military personnel (ethnic Americans) outnumber the local population.

Do you feel that Russia had or has the right to invade and occupy another sovereign nation that has made no acts of war toward Russia, no acts of violence toward Russia, and with whom Russia has a treaty that precludes such military aggression? Can you please answer the question without the continual "YEAH.. BUT..." responses?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I don't think so. Honestly, I think they're anti-government (US government, of course, they don't care about any others) types. They're sick of "the Man" and "the Establishment" and "Media bias" and "the Illuminati" and whatever else they contrive to explain why they feel they've been put down. So anything that looks like it's sticking its thumb in the eye of all/any/some of those things? They support it. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. They see the world in black and white, good and evil: they found out at some point that the US wasn't the good guy they had always been told it was- that it was just looking after its own interests? Then it must be evil. And they fight it tooth and nail. Putin fights it? Then they love Putin.
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This phenomenon among the people we're describing here was recognized a century or more ago (described by JF Revel Jean-François Revel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in The Totalitarian Temptation ) whereby Nazis could easily become Fascists or Communists and so on. Their main enemy has always been western style democracies and they will assume any argument, no matter how biased, baseless or false, in order to support their own vision of the way they feel society should be run.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Ahhhh... an English lesson. Fun. Maybe you should use the entire term, not just one word of the term.

Crimea was made part of Ukraine by the USSR and subsequently permanently given to Ukraine by Russia later.

Autonomous region is the term. Not autonomous country. An autonomous region is also the definition of a state within the United States of America.

Nice try though. The rest of your post has been addressed numerous times. Ethnicity of the population has nothing to do with which country has sovereign power over the region. As we've discussed many times already in this thread, under that illogical precedence, Mexico could claim Southern California or Brownsville, Texas. Or the US could claim some of the Japanese islands since US military personnel (ethnic Americans) outnumber the local population.

Do you feel that Russia had or has the right to invade and occupy another sovereign nation that has made no acts of war toward Russia, no acts of violence toward Russia, and with whom Russia has a treaty that precludes such military aggression? Can you please answer the question without the continual "YEAH.. BUT..." responses?
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Crimea asked for Russia's help. How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation? Yeah but, yourself.
 
Moot said:
Crimea asked for Russia's help. How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation? Yeah but, yourself.
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The Crimean government that Russia put in place asked for the Russians to help....... After the Russians had already deployed their forces around the Crimea and put their guys in charge. Pretty convenient.
 
Moot said:
How many countries invite invaders in and vote to be part of their federation?
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It's almost like you're not sure of what a "country" is.

I want to again specify- because you seem to be unable to understand what I'm saying- that I'm not saying Russia is particularly "wrong". I'm very much an IR neorealist. It's all subjective. But the pains some of you are going through to try to make Russia look like a saint in comparison to the evil US is just laughable.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I don't think so. Honestly, I think they're anti-government (US government, of course, they don't care about any others) types. They're sick of "the Man" and "the Establishment" and "Media bias" and "the Illuminati" and whatever else they contrive to explain why they feel they've been put down. So anything that looks like it's sticking its thumb in the eye of all/any/some of those things? They support it. The old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. They see the world in black and white, good and evil: they found out at some point that the US wasn't the good guy they had always been told it was- that it was just looking after its own interests? Then it must be evil. And they fight it tooth and nail. Putin fights it? Then they love Putin.
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We're not anti gov't. Unlike you, and you readily admit you don't believe in liberty, freedom, democracy and justice, we place those issues in high regard. We don't desire to be an EMPIRE and control the NEW WORLD ORDER. We don't confuse National Interests with Corporate Interests as you do. CORPORATE AMERIKA is evil and all you have to do is review the banking books to see the USA is the most indebted Nation on the planet and initiating skullduggery WorldWide to prevent collapse. I admire Putin as he has stood by Russians, including the Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine. He has stood against TERRORISTS financed by the USA in Syria. Evil NATIONAL INTERESTS do not earn my loyalties and I am a veteran and a patriotic one, except I seem to be patriotic to forgotten ideals of justice, democracy, human rights, self determination, and other virtues that this Nations represented and seems to have forgotten, especially people in gov't like yourself. Self Interest is your patriotism, nothing else. All I can figure is that you are paid to obfuscate the truth on this board and/or to assuage your own guilt. Hey, have at it. You're slummin' wit' da' bottom feeders.
 
DaveFagan said:
We're not anti gov't. Unlike you, and you readily admit you don't believe in liberty, freedom, democracy and justice, we place those issues in high regard. We don't desire to be an EMPIRE and control the NEW WORLD ORDER. We don't confuse National Interests with Corporate Interests as you do. CORPORATE AMERIKA is evil and all you have to do is review the banking books to see the USA is the most indebted Nation on the planet and initiating skullduggery WorldWide to prevent collapse. I admire Putin as he has stood by Russians, including the Russians in Crimea and East Ukraine. He has stood against TERRORISTS financed by the USA in Syria. Evil NATIONAL INTERESTS do not earn my loyalties and I am a veteran and a patriotic one, except I seem to be patriotic to forgotten ideals of justice, democracy, human rights, self determination, and other virtues that this Nations represented and seems to have forgotten, especially people in gov't like yourself. Self Interest is your patriotism, nothing else. All I can figure is that you are paid to obfuscate the truth on this board and/or to assuage your own guilt. Hey, have at it. You're slummin' wit' da' bottom feeders.
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Well that was certainly a crazy rant, thank you, Dave! I'll submit it to prisonplanet.com on your behalf, I'm sure it'll be a big hit.
 
Beaudreaux said:
The Crimean government that Russia put in place asked for the Russians to help....... After the Russians had already deployed their forces around the Crimea and put their guys in charge. Pretty convenient.
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It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?

r


Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.
 
Moot said:
It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?

r


Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.
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I'll repost this here:

lol seriously? It'd actually be more impressive if the guy that took control of the country was someone that State Department folks hadn't ever met/hung out with. What do you think foreign service people of all nations get paid to do? They're supposed to hobnob with local/national/regional players and have the inside scoop of who's power is waxing and who's power is waning. That's like...ya know...one of their vital functions?

You think because he was mentioned, that means he was put in charge. It's the converse: it was because he was a person who could (and, it turns out, would) be in charge that he was mentioned in the first place. You mistook for the effect for the cause. Important people get mentioned in important conversations; as opposed to being mentioned in an important conversation and then becoming important.
 
Moot said:
It's pretty convenient that the interim government that the US set up in Kiev asked for US help too, isn't it?

r


Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him (Klitsch) not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call


The US wanted Yats to be leader of Ukraine....and look...now he is.
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My, my. You must really hate the US.

What evidence do you have that the US installed these guys? None. It doesn't exist because it didn't happen.

Did the US invade Ukraine? No.

Did the Russians invade Ukraine? Yes.

Jeez Louise. Get it straight.

Diplomats discuss all the time who they'd like to see in power. Russia wanted Obama. Putin was quoted as saying so. Did Russia put Obama in power?

Can you see how silly this is?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I'll repost this here:

lol seriously? It'd actually be more impressive if the guy that took control of the country was someone that State Department folks hadn't ever met/hung out with. What do you think foreign service people of all nations get paid to do? They're supposed to hobnob with local/national/regional players and have the inside scoop of who's power is waxing and who's power is waning. That's like...ya know...one of their vital functions?

You think because he was mentioned, that means he was put in charge. It's the converse: it was because he was a person who could (and, it turns out, would) be in charge that he was mentioned in the first place. You mistook for the effect for the cause. Important people get mentioned in important conversations; as opposed to being mentioned in an important conversation and then becoming important.
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I tried to tell that earlier. They just can't get past their tin foil hat rage against the US, the CIA, the NSA and maybe even Disneyland.
 
Beaudreaux said:
I tried to tell that earlier. They just can't get past their tin foil hat rage against the US, the CIA, the NSA and maybe even Disneyland.
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You're definitely 100%. Misinformed, that is. What I said about bozone and osteopornosis is/was prescient, don't you think? That's not rhetorical.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
It's almost like you're not sure of what a "country" is.

I want to again specify- because you seem to be unable to understand what I'm saying- that I'm not saying Russia is particularly "wrong". I'm very much an IR neorealist. It's all subjective. But the pains some of you are going through to try to make Russia look like a saint in comparison to the evil US is just laughable.
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Well, it's laughable to see some of you take such great pains to be relevant and yet post absolutely nothing worth responding to. lol
 
Moot said:
Well, it's laughable to see some of you take such great pains to be relevant and yet post absolutely nothing worth responding to. lol
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Love it when someone shoots themselves in their own foot (because I'm not a nice person):

Moot said:
If you had a good arguement you wouldn't need to resort to such low brow tactics.
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Such low brow tactics, Moot. It'd be much nicer if you had a good "arguement".
 
Beaudreaux said:
My, my. You must really hate the US.
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I don't think I hate the US anymore than you do.

What evidence do you have that the US installed these guys? None. It doesn't exist because it didn't happen.
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I provided a link to a hacked phone conversation of a US diplomat chosing which man the US wanted for leader of Ukraine and now he is. But I guess if you don't want to see it then of course it must not exist. :roll:


Did the US invade Ukraine? No.
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Supporting the opposition by proxy is typical of US invasions. It worked quite well with Pinochet.

Did the Russians invade Ukraine? Yes.
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Thats debatable.

Jeez Louise. Get it straight.
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Take it easy, pal..its just a forum.

Diplomats discuss all the time who they'd like to see in power. Russia wanted Obama. Putin was quoted as saying so. Did Russia put Obama in power?

Can you see how silly this is?
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Yeah, that was a pretty stupid false equilvent that you posted there. lol Obama was elected president...Yats was not. Big difference wouldn't you say?


Whats intersting about Nuland's hacked phone call is the that US hasn't denied a single word she said and much of it has already come to pass. Yats is now officially a US puppet.
 
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