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Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

Grant said:
Yes, they became involved certainly, but that does not make it a Russian issue.
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If most of Russia's gas flows through pipes in Ukraine...how is that not a Russian issue?
 
Grant said:
I certainly agree with your analysis. In everyone's interest, including that of the Ukrainian people, Russia should have the Crimea, their freshwater port, and stop right there. It need go no further. NATO and all the rest can wait indefinitely.
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Absolutely. That's where the line should be drawn.
 
Quag said:
Well it was just a Ukrainian issue until Russia invaded, then they became involved as well.
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It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization. There hand picked stooge is in charge, and nobody , except Yanukovych was actually elected. Face facts. It's a US backed plot to force privatization of the Energy bottleneck industries in Ukraine. This is not and never has been a spontaneous reveolt for freedom, liberty, democracy or justice. It is an economic power grab and it will also boost the MIC players in the USA at a time tehy are fearing budget cuts.. It's a USA win-win for business. War is good business. Threats of war are good business. What's good for business is good for the USA, especially anything in the energy or arms businesses. Wars are good marketing , if you're in the business, and we are.
 
DaveFagan said:
It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization. There hand picked stooge is in charge, and nobody , except Yanukovych was actually elected. Face facts. It's a US backed plot to force privatization of the Energy bottleneck industries in Ukraine. This is not and never has been a spontaneous reveolt for freedom, liberty, democracy or justice. It is an economic power grab and it will also boost the MIC players in the USA at a time tehy are fearing budget cuts.. It's a USA win-win for business. War is good business. Threats of war are good business. What's good for business is good for the USA, especially anything in the energy or arms businesses. Wars are good marketing , if you're in the business, and we are.
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It's kind of an odd choice for an evil empire to decide to back another coup whilst cutting defense spending, is it not?
 
MadLib said:
It's kind of an odd choice for an evil empire to decide to back another coup whilst cutting defense spending, is it not?
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That would depend on who's hand is in the sock puppet. CORPORATE hand and very oily.
 
Fallenangel said:
Party of regions and Batykovshina are the largest parties "on paper" and Wiki, because they were elected before the recent Maidan revolution - in very murky elections, these elections would have very little to do with the current aspirations of Ukrainians in the streets, and the actual situation on the ground in Ukraine.
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I agree. However, the fact that these politicians impeached Yanukovych demonstrates the fact that his ouster was not a neo-Nazi coup.
Moreover, the "political affiliation" of some party members is just a formality, as could have been seen from the Party of regions vote to impeach Yanukovich, and from;
segodnya.ua (sorry it's in Russian)
"Party of Regions deputies out of 75 (updated) - 4.3.14
Today, pro-government faction left 2 more MPs
Of the parliamentary faction of the Party of Regions went 2 more MPs. In general, the faction lost and 75 people's deputies.
Resignation from the faction wrote:
Sergei Klyuyev
Vladimir Nakonechniy
Vladimir Demishkan..."

Ukrainian political life is much more complicated than the simple division according to party/political lines i.e liberal vs. conservative - and a large portion of PMs are sitting in the Rada not because of their strong political stance, but due to a simple desire to be close to the power and money.
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That's how it is in the US, too, except we only have two parties.

If I had to guess, the decision of Yanukovych's own party to back his impeachment stems more from politicking than ideology. He's extremely dangerous to keep from a political standpoint, considering how much Ukrainians hate him.
It accounted for 8% in the parliament based on the previous electons, unfortunately like I already explained these elections have nothing to do with the situation that we have now. Svoboda's Tyagnibok is one of the main 2 winners of the revolution, together with Yatzenuk, (2 and not 3 as I don't consider Klichko as someone that has future in Ukraine's political life).

The main problem with that is that Svoboda, and the extreme groups like Pravy sektor gained more power, they gained more recognition, and the worst part is that they managed to get into the mainstream narrative in Ukraine and around the world.
That is very obvious if one watches the Ukrainian media, for example, nationalists and Nazis are portrayed as "heroes" on the pro-European "liberal" media outlets such as espreso.tv.
Furthermore, these groups are better organised, equipped and armed and can be easily manipulated to obey orders by their leaders.

These nationalist and Nazi parties played a crucial role in the recent "revolution" as the main and well organized fighting force on the ground, and they are not going to just disappear.

Fallen.
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Oh, I'm not denying the fact that these scum have their presence or that they're benefiting from the revolution. I just object to the notion that the entire movement is being directed by their hands. Unfortunately, every revolution has its extremists, and I just hope that the moderates will be able to marginalize their influence and bring Ukraine into the Western world.

BTW, even when we disagree, you tend to present well-written and thoughtful arguments. Keep it up :)
 
DaveFagan said:
It was a Ukraine issue until the USA/CIA spent $5 billion to foment anarchy and destabilization.
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This is just meaningless conjecture, and everything Dave thinks rests upon this.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
This is just meaningless conjecture, and everything Dave thinks rests upon this.
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You will kindly produce the links that prove the USA spent the money on other items, like cheap energy for Ukrainians, or lo-cost electricity for Ukrainians, or money for rail links, or money for new communications cabling, or food subsidies. That should be easy for a great soothsayer like yourself who doesn't know that USA National Interests are not supposed to be USA CORPORATE Interests. The people are not CORPORATE AMERIKA.
 
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DaveFagan said:
You will kindly produce the links that prove the USA spent the monwy on other items, like cheap energy for Ukrainians, or lo-cost electricity for Ukrainians, or money for rail links, or money for new communications cobling, or food subsidies. That should be easy for a great soothsayer who doesn't know that USA National Interests are not supposed to be USA CORPORATE Interests. The people are not CORPORATE AMERIKA.
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So...again you're assuming.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
So...again you're assuming.
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No! The State Department is about 50% CIA to provide cover jobs. The $5 billion did not purchase one tangible asset for the USA or it woud be all over the News. You do not believe in liberty, freedom, democracy or justice but believe in what is effective. $5 billion is pretty effective in a poor Nation like Ukraine. If a regime change would be in USA "National Interest," then by your own standards, regime change is what's going to be because it's effective. Now USA big Banking can force Ukraine to put the National asset, pipeline, up as collaterol for a loan, trigger policies that encourage default and "Voila," unbelievable coincidence, pipeline privatized to Western Bankers and Energy players, better known as CORPORATE AMERIKA. Effective!
 
DaveFagan said:
No! The State Department is about 50% CIA to provide cover jobs. The $5 billion did not purchase one tangible asset for the USA or it woud be all over the News. You do not believe in liberty, freedom, democracy or justice but believe in what is effective. $5 billion is pretty effective in a poor Nation like Ukraine. If a regime change would be in USA "National Interest," then by your own standards, regime change is what's going to be because it's effective. Now USA big Banking can force Ukraine to put the National asset, pipeline, up as collaterol for a loan, trigger policies that encourage default and "Voila," unbelievable coincidence, pipeline privatized to Western Bankers and Energy players, better known as CORPORATE AMERIKA. Effective!
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Right, you just assumed all that. And then basing the entire rest of your argument upon it.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Right, you just assumed all that. And then basing the entire rest of your argument upon it.
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No! $5 billion buys lots of crap and you can't produce links to defend the money you admit spending. You clearly can't make your case for legitimate usage of $5 billion and you're inside the gov't. Damn shame. I expected more of you. Effective, remember? Your view of gov't. Cause and effect. $5 billion buys something. Show me what it bought. I have no trouble showing you insurrection and regime change for "effectiveness."
 
DaveFagan said:
No! $5 billion buys lots of crap and you can't produce links to defend the money you admit spending. You clearly can't make your case for legitimate usage of $5 billion and you're inside the gov't. Damn shame. I expected more of you. Effective, remember? Your view of gov't. Cause and effect. $5 billion buys something. Show me what it bought. I have no trouble showing you insurrection and regime change for "effectiveness."
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That's an assumption, Dave. Do you know what an assumption is? It's when you don't know something but operate as if you do.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
That's an assumption, Dave. Do you know what an assumption is? It's when you don't know something but operate as if you do.
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Airballs. You say it is an assumption that $5 billion buys something. You got zip, zero, nada!
 
Montecresto said:
As the Russian minister pointed out at the UN yesterday. The present Ukrainian government is illegitimate, having taken its position by force through violence, toppling the elected government and driving the president out, firing upon his caravan as he fled. That's not democracy.
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How is that different than what Russia did in Crimea when they forced their way into the Parliament at gun point and put their guy and his party (who only got 3% to 4% of the Crimean vote in the last real election) in charge of the Crimean Parliament?
 
DaveFagan said:
Airballs. You say it is an assumption that $5 billion buys something. You got zip, zero, nada!
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...That's you, Dave. You just assumed $5 billion bought a coup. You don't have any evidence at all.



Zip, zero, nada. You just want it to be true, so you went ahead and made that assumption.
 
Moot said:
If most of Russia's gas flows through pipes in Ukraine...how is that not a Russian issue?
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A lot of the US' oil runs through pipelines that traverse Canada. Should we invade Canada is we don't like the way their government is run or if they have civil unrest?
 
Beaudreaux said:
How is that different than what Russia did in Crimea when they forced their way into the Parliament at gun point and put their guy and his party (who only got 3% to 4% of the Crimean vote in the last real election) in charge of the Crimean Parliament?
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I see your alleged point, so explain why the Crimeans seem real pleased by their regime continuity under Russian auspices. No 100 dead protestors and policemen, no firebombs, no Victoria Nuland passing out rolls to alleged protestors.. No phone calls stating who will be in charge. Straight up and to the point loyalty to Russia, or not, as this election will demonstrate. Hot dam, but it sounds like democracy. Ukraine sounds like usurpers.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
...That's you, Dave. You just assumed $5 billion bought a coup. You don't have any evidence at all.



Zip, zero, nada. You just want it to be true, so you went ahead and made that assumption.
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As a Defense Dept. employee, you must subscribe to Group Think. You're doin' dandy. No thinking required.
 
DaveFagan said:
As a Defense Dept. employee, you must subscribe to Group Think. You're doin' dandy. No thinking required.
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Is that yet another assumption? You're on a roll!
 
DaveFagan said:
I see your alleged point, so explain why the Crimeans seem real pleased by their regime continuity under Russian auspices. No 100 dead protestors and policemen, no firebombs, no Victoria Nuland passing out rolls to alleged protestors.. No phone calls stating who will be in charge. Straight up and to the point loyalty to Russia, or not, as this election will demonstrate. Hot dam, but it sounds like democracy. Ukraine sounds like usurpers.
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There's a lot of assumptions in the above. What we do know for a fact, is that Russia invaded the Crimea and placed their own people in charge. Additionally, anyone that has shown public support for Ukraine in Crimea, since the Russian invasion, has been arrested; some were beaten in public before being arrested, including the very old and very young.

If this is supposed to be the choice of the Crimean population, why do we think that any "vote" will be legitimate with Russian guns at the polling places?
 
Beaudreaux said:
There's a lot of assumptions in the above. What we do know for a fact, is that Russia invaded the Crimea and placed their own people in charge. Additionally, anyone that has shown public support for Ukraine in Crimea, since the Russian invasion, has been arrested; some were beaten in public before being arrested, including the very old and very young.

If this is supposed to be the choice of the Crimean population, why do we think that any "vote" will be legitimate with Russian guns at the polling places?
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No invasion. There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement. The soldiers are not wearing patches, so they must be Academi, by the same logic you use to state they are Russians. Looks a lot like democracy. Not so much in Kiev and Greater Ukraine.
 
Beaudreaux said:
A lot of the US' oil runs through pipelines that traverse Canada. Should we invade Canada is we don't like the way their government is run or if they have civil unrest?
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Who said Russia invaded?

Mexico would've been a better analogy since US has invaded it in the past and took/stole a lot of their territory.
 
DaveFagan said:
No invasion. There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement. The soldiers are not wearing patches, so they must be Academi, by the same logic you use to state they are Russians. Looks a lot like democracy. Not so much in Kiev and Greater Ukraine.
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I see your position:

Okay. To use that form of logic, would the British, or Germans or Japanese feel we had invaded if we took our troops from our bases, blasted the doors down to their parliament, put our guys in charge and then called for a vote with the polling places staffed by armed US military?

Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy.

What happened in Ukraine is very similar to how the US came to be. That was more a vision of Democratic revolution than what the Russians are doing in Crimea.
 
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