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For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

DaveFagan said:
The USA does it with banking and corporate hegemons. Is there a difference. Ask the Ukrainians if they want their standard of living lowered and gas costs increased and retirements slashed to satisfy the IMF.
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Oh geez... Good luck with all of that.
 
Proud South Korean said:
That's actually one of the more sensible posts he makes. You should look up his posts.
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Rather than ridicule the poster on a personal basis, I would be more inclined to examine the case he is making, and investigate the veracity or otherwise of his claims. If he is talking arrant nonsense, with no factual basis whatsoever, it should be child's play to demonstrate that. If however, there is some evidence of clandestine US and UK influence in the Ukrainian coup, perhaps it might be unfair to accuse the poster concerned of promoting insane myths. Very few issues are totally black or white - shades of grey tend to predominate, especially where national interests are concerned. ;)
 
DaveFagan said:
The USA does it with banking and corporate hegemons.
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Between legal corporates and illegal olygarchs? Plenty!

For one corporates are more interested in trading and buying goods with dollars. Olygarchs may resort to their mafia ties in getting stuff for free and by force.
 
DDD said:
Between legal corporates and illegal olygarchs? Plenty!

For one corporates are more interested in trading and buying goods with dollars. Olygarchs may resort to their mafia ties in getting stuff for free and by force.
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Is that why the USA has installed Oligarchs around Ukraine to maintain order, discipline, etc.
 
Leo said:
Rather than ridicule the poster on a personal basis, I would be more inclined to examine the case he is making, and investigate the veracity or otherwise of his claims. If he is talking arrant nonsense, with no factual basis whatsoever, it should be child's play to demonstrate that. If however, there is some evidence of clandestine US and UK influence in the Ukrainian coup, perhaps it might be unfair to accuse the poster concerned of promoting insane myths. Very few issues are totally black or white - shades of grey tend to predominate, especially where national interests are concerned. ;)
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If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.
 
Proud South Korean said:
If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.
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If your not going to debate, then you should keep quiet.
 
Proud South Korean said:
If this was his first time bashing US foreign policy then I would have certainly debated him. The fact his, to him, all US foreign policy is evil while all those who oppose the US are agents of good. You'll see him arguing that Japan was justified in Pearl Harbor because of US sanctions, never mind the fact that Japanese war crimes and aggression killed millions. He's currently regarded as one of the top if not indeed the top anti-US poster in this forum and that's including the likes of DaveFagan and RDS. He argued that the US is wrong to intervene against Chinese aggression and expansionism in East Asia and that said Chinese actions are entirely appropriate.
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Well, as a self-described conservative American, I imagine DaveFagan considers himself entitled to criticise the policies of his own nation, in much the same way I feel I have the right to criticise the domestic and foreign policies of the UK.

I understand that you might feel irritated by recurring criticisms of your nation's foreign policies, but we need to examine the specific criticisms in detail, in order to ascertain their validity or otherwise. Understand that I have not read many of DaveFagan's posts, and I am not necessarily defending any positions he may have taken, nor am I criticising your opposition to his views - I am simply not sufficiently familiar with the issues you have with each other.

But my approach to these matters devolves about the fact that this is a discussion forum, and in the the course of discussion one is going to encounter diverse views and many with which one may not agree. I find it more constructive to question such views, rather than discount the poster as insane or unreasonably prejudiced.

To question the morality, legality, and humanity of any nation's foreign policies is not necessarily to show unreasoned prejudice against that nation. All our societies act in a predominantly self-interested manner, irrespective of what ostensible motives we claim, and in many cases we commit breaches of human rights and our responsibilities under the UN Charter. The more powerful we are, the more likely we are to escape any consequences other than a damaged reputation - this is both unfortunate, and can be a danger to the rule of law worldwide. Given the propensity towards nationalism (and somewhat mawkish 'patriotism') in many societies, I am always rather heartened to see anyone openly criticise what he sees as shortcomings in his own society. There should be more of it. ;)
 
Leo said:
Well, as a self-described conservative American, I imagine DaveFagan considers himself entitled to criticise the policies of his own nation, in much the same way I feel I have the right to criticise the domestic and foreign policies of the UK.

I understand that you might feel irritated by recurring criticisms of your nation's foreign policies, but we need to examine the specific criticisms in detail, in order to ascertain their validity or otherwise. Understand that I have not read many of DaveFagan's posts, and I am not necessarily defending any positions he may have taken, nor am I criticising your opposition to his views - I am simply not sufficiently familiar with the issues you have with each other.

But my approach to these matters devolves about the fact that this is a discussion forum, and in the the course of discussion one is going to encounter diverse views and many with which one may not agree. I find it more constructive to question such views, rather than discount the poster as insane or unreasonably prejudiced.

To question the morality, legality, and humanity of any nation's foreign policies is not necessarily to show unreasoned prejudice against that nation. All our societies act in a predominantly self-interested manner, irrespective of what ostensible motives we claim, and in many cases we commit breaches of human rights and our responsibilities under the UN Charter. The more powerful we are, the more likely we are to escape any consequences other than a damaged reputation - this is both unfortunate, and can be a danger to the rule of law worldwide. Given the propensity towards nationalism (and somewhat mawkish 'patriotism') in many societies, I am always rather heartened to see anyone openly criticise what he sees as shortcomings in his own society. There should be more of it. ;)
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Sure that may be your philosophy but mine is that after a few attempts to have a reasonable interaction fails due to dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming, then I deem any further interactions useless and generally avoid any contact except the occasional sniping to point out inaccuracies, blatant lies, or to attack trolling.
BTW I'm South Korean, not American. I'm only right now in the US, by citizenship and loyalty I am firmly South Korean.
 
Proud South Korean said:
Sure that may be your philosophy but mine is that after a few attempts to have a reasonable interaction fails due to dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming, then I deem any further interactions useless and generally avoid any contact except the occasional sniping to point out inaccuracies, blatant lies, or to attack trolling.
BTW I'm South Korean, not American. I'm only right now in the US, by citizenship and loyalty I am firmly South Korean.
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Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way. :mrgreen:

Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts. ;)

Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self. :)
 
Leo said:
Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way. :mrgreen:

Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts. ;)

Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self. :)
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Are my eyes deceiving me or is someone patronising a well regarded poster like PSK?
 
Leo said:
Fair enough - we all find the road to Hell in our own way. :mrgreen:

Believe me, I find many apparent attitudes I encounter here both unreasonable and irritating, and there are a few topics which I avoid if possible (religion and gun-control being foremost amongst their number). But (and this is purely a point of view which applies to myself alone) I see little point in joining a discussion if one is going to personally vilify those with whom one happens to disagree. Surely it is more productive to examine the differences, and attempt to find the reasons the other person thinks so differently? Having said that, I can understand one's reluctance, particularly on American boards, where there is currently so much political polarisation, to engage with people exhibiting diametrically opposed views.

And we all need to realise that the charges of 'dishonesty, ignorance, close-mindedness, and trolling/flaming' can sometimes be very subjective evaluations, which can with equal validity (or invalidity) be directed at our own posts. ;)

Another complication with these situations involving a degree of intolerance, is that these boards are international venues, and the value systems with which each of us have grown up are not identical. So what may appear as a self-evident truth to a North American, or an Asian, may not be immediately perceived as such by an European. As I indicated before, life is largely shades of grey.

My apologies for inadvertently taking you for a US citizen. As a British citizen currently studying in Australia, I am in a not-entirely-dissimilar situation to your good self. :)
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Of course my criteria is very subjective. All I'm trying to say is that I'm not one of those close-minded people who only talks to people who have similar views. When I find people who are open to reason and debate, I'll always welcome a debate and/or discussion with them even if most of our views are different or opposite each other.
Good luck with your studies. Incidentally I'm also in the US for my studies.
 
Proud South Korean said:
Of course my criteria is very subjective. All I'm trying to say is that I'm not one of those close-minded people who only talks to people who have similar views. When I find people who are open to reason and debate, I'll always welcome a debate and/or discussion with them even if most of our views are different or opposite each other.
Good luck with your studies. Incidentally I'm also in the US for my studies.
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I understand that, as is mine - subjectivity is unavoidable for the societal reasons I mentioned. I appreciate the point of view you are enunciating, and by and large agree with most of it. I was merely enlarging upon my own philosophy, and the reasons I frequent these boards.

I do not regard these discussions as an opportunity to prove that my world view is the only correct one (and I hasten to add that I do not think you do), but rather as an opportunity to learn about other views and cultures. I should be very interested to learn more of yours, as I have never been to Korea.

But, LOL, I am basically apolitical in the party political sense, so you would not find a purely political discussion with me very satisfying. Anyway good luck with your studies also - what is the discipline you are undertaking? :)
 
Ben K. said:
Are my eyes deceiving me or is someone patronising a well regarded poster like PSK?
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LOL, your eyes (or other senses) are deceiving you. Neither am I in the position to, nor would I presume to, patronise anybody, least of all a polite and reasonable poster such as Proud South Korean. :D
 
Leo said:
LOL, your eyes (or other senses) are deceiving you. Neither am I in the position to, nor would I presume to, patronise anybody, least of all a polite and reasonable poster such as Proud South Korean. :D
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Thanks for the compliment.
As for my studies I am in the US for my high school studies-I have applied to several top boarding schools such as Andover yet I have been accepted by none but waitlisted by all. Huh. I've heard that being waitlisted in Andover is extremely rare so I do have some hopes.
 
Grant said:
Can you name a few of these Oligarchs?
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?Rule by oligarchs: Kiev appoints billionaires to govern east ? RT News

"The self-proclaimed government in Kiev has appointed two of Ukraine’s richest men to govern large industrial regions in the defiant east. One of the reasons for the Maidan protest was the influence the rich have on politics in the country.

The appointments of new governors of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk Regions are among 18 made on Sunday by Kiev, which is struggling to consolidate power after the coup which ousted President Yanukovich last month.

The newly-appointed Dnepropetrovsk governor is Igor Kolomoysky, Ukraine’s third-wealthiest man, with an estimated fortune of $2.4 billion. He co-owns the informal commercial group Privat, which includes Ukraine’s largest bank Privatbank, which Kolomoysky heads, as well as assets in the oil, ferroalloys and food industries, agriculture and transport.

A former ally of Yulia Tymoshenko, Kolomoysky reportedly had a falling out with her and refused to finance her election campaign in 2010, which the ex-prime minister subsequently lost to Yanukovich. Kolomoysky was reported to be a principal sponsor of the UDAR party, which is one of the three fueling the street campaign to oust Yanukovich. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship and controls his business empire from Switzerland.

The new governor of Donetsk Region is Sergey Taruta, who is estimated to worth around $2 billion, putting him among the top-10 wealthiest people in Ukraine. He heads ISD, one of the biggest mining and smelting companies in the world, and also own Donetsk-based Metallurg Football Club. "
 
Despite what Hillary Clinton said about international verses US news, they won't accept rt.
 
Leo said:
LOL, your eyes (or other senses) are deceiving you. Neither am I in the position to, nor would I presume to, patronise anybody, least of all a polite and reasonable poster such as Proud South Korean. :D
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For the record.

My criticism of US foreign policy during the WW2 era was that due to American loses of blood and treasure in a European war just twenty years earlier, Americans were sorely disinterested in a replay, despite sympathies for those being abused by Germany and Japan, an April 1941 Gallop poll showed 80% of Americans opposed to US involvement. Even though FDR had been doing all he could to provoke Germany to attack us, being quietly at war with them in all but declaration, trying to pull them into an overt attack, they wouldn't, and he turned his attention to Japan, burdensome sanctions (America's favorite diplomacy) and an ultimatum no country could accept, Japan took the bait. Ten days before the attack, secretary Stimson wrote in his diary that FDR had told him that a Japanese attack was imminent, and could come on Monday (he missed it by a day) and in an earlier writing, he disclosed that FDR hoped the attack would be sufficient to turn public opinion, but didn't hurt us too bad. He was willing to loose a destroyer or two, but not five or six. The week after the attack on Pearl Harbor, those Gallop poll numbers nicely reversed.
 
DaveFagan said:
?Rule by oligarchs: Kiev appoints billionaires to govern east ? RT News

"The self-proclaimed government in Kiev has appointed two of Ukraine’s richest men to govern large industrial regions in the defiant east. One of the reasons for the Maidan protest was the influence the rich have on politics in the country.

The appointments of new governors of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk Regions are among 18 made on Sunday by Kiev, which is struggling to consolidate power after the coup which ousted President Yanukovich last month.

The newly-appointed Dnepropetrovsk governor is Igor Kolomoysky, Ukraine’s third-wealthiest man, with an estimated fortune of $2.4 billion. He co-owns the informal commercial group Privat, which includes Ukraine’s largest bank Privatbank, which Kolomoysky heads, as well as assets in the oil, ferroalloys and food industries, agriculture and transport.

A former ally of Yulia Tymoshenko, Kolomoysky reportedly had a falling out with her and refused to finance her election campaign in 2010, which the ex-prime minister subsequently lost to Yanukovich. Kolomoysky was reported to be a principal sponsor of the UDAR party, which is one of the three fueling the street campaign to oust Yanukovich. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship and controls his business empire from Switzerland.

The new governor of Donetsk Region is Sergey Taruta, who is estimated to worth around $2 billion, putting him among the top-10 wealthiest people in Ukraine. He heads ISD, one of the biggest mining and smelting companies in the world, and also own Donetsk-based Metallurg Football Club. "
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These people were 'installed' by the US? Perhaps they are the best people to lead at this time, but we will see what happens with a little moore time. Who ever is in charge the democracies must be sure that Russian takes the Crimea and then stays there. There is no place in the world for another Evil effin Empire.
 
Montecresto said:
For the record.

My criticism of US foreign policy during the WW2 era was that due to American loses of blood and treasure in a European war just twenty years earlier, Americans were sorely disinterested in a replay, despite sympathies for those being abused by Germany and Japan, an April 1941 Gallop poll showed 80% of Americans opposed to US involvement. Even though FDR had been doing all he could to provoke Germany to attack us, being quietly at war with them in all but declaration, trying to pull them into an overt attack, they wouldn't, and he turned his attention to Japan, burdensome sanctions (America's favorite diplomacy) and an ultimatum no country could accept, Japan took the bait. Ten days before the attack, secretary Stimson wrote in his diary that FDR had told him that a Japanese attack was imminent, and could come on Monday (he missed it by a day) and in an earlier writing, he disclosed that FDR hoped the attack would be sufficient to turn public opinion, but didn't hurt us too bad. He was willing to loose a destroyer or two, but not five or six. The week after the attack on Pearl Harbor, those Gallop poll numbers nicely reversed.
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Don't take conspiracy theories as fact.
 
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