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For First Time, Kremlin Signals It Is Prepared to Annex Crimea [W:153]

Cryptic said:
I dont think the parliamentary represenatives have lost their seats.
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No, I guess they were afraid to show up for work then!
Likewise, the "Ukrainian only" laws for Russian areas have been rescinded.
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Which changes nothing! The Russians and the Russian-speaking Ukrainians are not going to forget that the coup government's first priority was to try to abolish their language. They may have already set up a situation where it is impossible to prevent the breakup of the Ukraine that was predicted back during the fall of the Soviet Union.
That aside, I think you have some good points. At some point, legitimate protesters in Kiev did turn into rioting right wing "Pushters".
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I noticed right from the start, that when I tuned in to the news from the other side: on RT, back during the early days of the protests, there were short videos of protest-training camps where demonstrators were being instructed in hand-to-hand combat, and how to use projectiles and shields. The only thing missing was guns...and that was back in the early days and weeks of the demonstrations. The demonstration video shown on U.S. TV news, did not show the storming of public buildings by rioters who looked almost like military police because they had the same equipment! Who outfitted them for the demonstrations? And what credibility do any pro-Ukrainian apologists have to contend that these were peaceful demonstrations until the riot police acted against them. The truth was that the police were taking casualties as they were being surrounded and isolated by rioters, and had to often act in self defense to save their own lives. None of these videos of the assaults by demonstrators in Kiev and other capitals were ever seen on the MSM.

If the Russians want Crimea and are so sure the Crimeans want them, then give a fair referendum on it with no loaded ballot options, no booted parliametarians, Crimean indepedence as an option on the ballot -it is about the Crimeans right? And...no Russian militia men supervising the "voting".
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It has become plainly evident from what I've seen lately, that the only Ukrainian supporters in Crimea are the minority Tatars, while the Russians in Crimea will likely go for full amalgamation back with Russia to prevent a Ukrainian takeover of their state.

That question needs to be asked to the Russians as well. My guess is that the answer to both questions is "no".
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I think Putin has so far, indicated that he is going to go hard and straight at the U.S. and European allies in any future cold war or hot war. I would guess that if he was losing a conventional war with the U.S. and Crimea was about to fall, that the nukes would be soon to follow.
 
Russia has to know that they are in no position to go toe-to-toe with the US.

But, then again...........

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The solution is simple. The U.S. needs to worry about healthcare, infra-structure, DEFENSE, education, environment, elderly, veterans, children, economy and get their nose out of Russia's business.
 
Captain America said:
Russia has to know that they are in no position to go toe-to-toe with the US.
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Really! How many nuclear warheads does it take again to destroy life on Earth? That's a question that was taken seriously back in the days of the Cold War; while too many idiots today thing the nukes have somehow vanished because nobody talks about them anymore:

According to the Federation of American Scientists, an organization that assesses nuclear weapon stockpiles, in 2013, Russia possessed an estimated 8,500 total nuclear warheads of which 1,800 were strategically operational.[2] The organization also claims that the U.S. had an estimated total 7,700 nuclear warheads of which 1,950 were strategically operational.[1
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
 
notquiteright said:
Multinationals have employees all around the world... they are a tiny % of our population and as a whole not keeping us our economy floating. It is like saying don't drug dealers have employees and don't they buy things? The shareholder thing is a CON dodge... most shares are held by a very tiny few.
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So if multinationals don't employee most Americans, what does?

But you dodge the issue, spending billions of dollars and thousands of American lives so a multinational can reap the reward and 'trickle down' some hard to measure 'benefit' is poor use of tax money. The same mulitnational who were very quick to partner with Russian gas companies. They don't have a stake in any one nation, they measure their 'loyalty ties' more on profit and comps than where they once sprang from.
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But the people that constitute them do. I hate to tell you, but most McDonald's and WalMart and Merrill Lynch and Paramount employees are Americans. Is this just the Team American "corporations acting corporation-y" thing? I find that the most conservative among us have some crazy distrust for the government in the same way that the most liberal among us have some crazy distrust for "multinational corporations". It's just...excessive.

You keep using the term 'American' when it is multinational. Its takes not one dime out of our trade if the Crimea goes Russian. Trade with the former Warsaw pact is more one sided as we pour money in and little if anything trickles back.
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So where does the money from these multinationals go? Where does most of the money John Deere makes GO?

If all was fair in love and war the world would be a smoking cinder. trite silly sayings are not good foreign policy.
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What is good foreign policy? Because you seem to be saying it's spreading ideology around instead of a cold, hard look at national interests. What are interests to you, since it's apparently not even economic ones?

All's fair in love and war, by the way, is just another way to describe the idea of a self-help, anarchical international system, the backbone of neorealism in international relations- itself the backbone for all serious modern international relations study and practice.
 
notquiteright said:
The bottom line here is you don't know.
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No, the bottom line is: I dont know and neither do you.

notquiteright said:
As I said, the Crimea has gone 'russian' in past elections, had a russian dominated parliament, but somehow was actually Ukrainian????
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Yeah, thats possible. Voting for a pro Russian Ukrainian party may or may not be the same thing as wanting annexation by Russia.

To use an analogy from the US civil war, the Union or Confederate support in TN could vary considerably depending on how the secessatiion question was phrased, who asked it, and under what circumstances it was asked.
 
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Montecresto said:
Please do read the article that Dave just linked. I agree somewhat with all you said, especially about this being for oil while humanitarian concerns are typical US smoke and mirrors.
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I've read it (link in post #170) and it lays things out rather clearly.

As far as I'm concerned, Russia can have eastern Ukraine since apparently much of that part of the country which includes Crimea is pro-Russia. The problem, of course, is the zero-sum game the EU and the U.S. are playing. They seem to be taking this all or nothing approach betting that the world will come to their (our) side if Russia could be made to look like the aggressor/invader and non-compliant with the rule of law were the democratic process is concerned. It's one helluva gamble!
 
German guy said:
Very interesting article. Still 10 years later.

And I agree that regarding expansionism, breaking treaties and international law, and geostrategic meddling, Russia is doing nothing fundamentally different than the West has been doing for a while.

However, I am very much in favor of preparing NATO for the worst case. Because for me, as a central European, it boils down to the simple question: In what kind of system do I prefer to live -- our current Western system, or a Russian style system?
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It sounds like the people in the Crimean and other eastern regions identify as Russian and want an affiliation with them. I believe in the right to self determination so I'm inclined to let them have their way if that is what the majority wants.
 
Hard Truth said:
It sounds like the people in the Crimean and other eastern regions identify as Russian and want an affiliation with them. I believe in the right to self determination so I'm inclined to let them have their way if that is what the majority wants.
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I agree; however, I believe Russia invading and holding referenda at gunpoint is not a viable way to determine what these people want.

Let's get an international troop in first and then hold a referendum under their watch. That would be legitimate.

It doesn't look like, though, that Putin has even the slightest interest in such a solution.
 
German guy said:
I agree; however, I believe Russia invading and holding referenda at gunpoint is not a viable way to determine what these people want.

Let's get an international troop in first and then hold a referendum under their watch. That would be legitimate.

It doesn't look like, though, that Putin has even the slightest interest in such a solution.
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In Kiev they are thinking about having an election but in the Crimea the election has a close date. Why wasn't Russia invited to help bring stability to Kiev? The West fomented insurrection in Ukraine and the Media pretends something else took place. Geez, could this be some kind of manipulation? Who's the good guy?
 
DaveFagan said:
In Kiev they are thinking about having an election but in the Crimea the election has a close date. Why wasn't Russia invited to help bring stability to Kiev? The West fomented insurrection in Ukraine and the Media pretends something else took place. Geez, could this be some kind of manipulation? Who's the good guy?
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lol wtf? What happened in your life that made you just randomly decide that the US is always bad? As dumb as the people that think the US is always good.
 
Ray410 said:
The United States is presently at an usual confluence of events. We have an incompetent bumbling administration combined with the fact that the American people want the rest of the world to screw off. Americans are tired of endless wars for nothing, tired of seeing our young men die in foreign countries for aholes that don't even want us there, tired of giving away money for nothing. We want to bring our people home, the war is over.

If Obama's incompetent bumbling and lack of knowledge keep us out of this, the American people will rightfully cheer the result.
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Funny but I think it is the incompetent bumbling Administrations that get us into wars without end or meaning.
You think the opposite.
 
The media in the West is playing Turchynov as the good guy. In reality, He's a neo-nazi, Ultra nationalist, That is Pro European. I wouldn't be surprised if some ethnic cleansing was happening behind the scenes. To overthrow the democratically elected president through armed revolution and then call him the good guy? Doesn't that seem detrimental to the democratic system?

If you just read the bios of Yulia Tymoshenko and Turchynov, They SCREAM fascist.


And don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the United States Foreign Policy. . .


DaveFagan said:
In Kiev they are thinking about having an election but in the Crimea the election has a close date. Why wasn't Russia invited to help bring stability to Kiev? The West fomented insurrection in Ukraine and the Media pretends something else took place. Geez, could this be some kind of manipulation? Who's the good guy?
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OldWorldOrder said:
lol wtf? What happened in your life that made you just randomly decide that the US is always bad? As dumb as the people that think the US is always good.
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I remember in Vietnam that a Vietnamese lady friend asked me "How does it help the Vietnamese to bring war and death to the Country?" It was a great question, but I was still a BLIND patriot. After I came home, I was really surprised by all the protest about the War. As I learned the truth of the War, my blinders fell off. It took a long time to see that a CORPORATE hand was in the puppeteer's sock to the detriment of the people, to the detriment of the Nation, to the detriment of everything, except Military/Industrial/Corporate bottom lines, I thought they temporarily had control of the people's gov't. It's been temporary since the 1900s. I harbor no illusions about democracy, freedom, liberty, and justice and the use of these buzzwords in a controlled Media. The Media control began with the CIA and has gotten out of hand. The USA Mainstream Media reputation is the same as lold Soviet Russia and deservedly so. I observe that for you to be comfortble in jour job, you must wear blinders full time, or you wouldn't be able to do your job. You will. of course see that as dutiful patriotism, not brainwashed. If you thought that you were spreadin death , mayhem, chaos, misery and violence around the World, you might not be "comfortable" in your job. When big Corporate rules the World, as it does in the USA, it is no different thatn a dictator, just another variety. I don't make random decisions.
 
Lukas105 said:
The media in the West is playing Turchynov as the good guy. In reality, He's a neo-nazi, Ultra nationalist, That is Pro European. I wouldn't be surprised if some ethnic cleansing was happening behind the scenes. To overthrow the democratically elected president through armed revolution and then call him the good guy? Doesn't that seem detrimental to the democratic system?

If you just read the bios of Yulia Tymoshenko and Turchynov, They SCREAM fascist.


And don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the United States Foreign Policy. . .
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Did you notice that hundreds of the "protesters" are from Academi (Blackwater)? Trained, organized, deployed to create deathe and chaos even after the Feb. 21 agreement where Yanukovych agreed and signed to all the demands of the protestors and ordered the police back. The death and mayhem occurred after this agreement. Academi (Blackwater) doesn't work for free. Let's check the payrolls and see who finances death, chaos, insurrection, and revolution and see who the snipers were working for.
 
DaveFagan said:
I remember in Vietnam that a Vietnamese lady friend asked me "How does it help the Vietnamese to bring war and death to the Country?" It was a great question, but I was still a BLIND patriot. After I came home, I was really surprised by all the protest about the War. As I learned the truth of the War, my blinders fell off. It took a long time to see that a CORPORATE hand was in the puppeteer's sock to the detriment of the people, to the detriment of the Nation, to the detriment of everything, except Military/Industrial/Corporate bottom lines, I thought they temporarily had control of the people's gov't. It's been temporary since the 1900s. I harbor no illusions about democracy, freedom, liberty, and justice and the use of these buzzwords in a controlled Media. The Media control began with the CIA and has gotten out of hand. The USA Mainstream Media reputation is the same as lold Soviet Russia and deservedly so. I observe that for you to be comfortble in jour job, you must wear blinders full time, or you wouldn't be able to do your job. You will. of course see that as dutiful patriotism, not brainwashed. If you thought that you were spreadin death , mayhem, chaos, misery and violence around the World, you might not be "comfortable" in your job. When big Corporate rules the World, as it does in the USA, it is no different thatn a dictator, just another variety. I don't make random decisions.
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I don't believe in democracy, freedom, liberty, or justice. I believe in what's effective. You think that's something about "corporations". It's not. Just because things aren't about democracy, freedom, liberty, or justice doesn't mean they're about corporations. Wake up. You're wearing blinders, Dave. Blinders that are making you look for a good guy and, as such, a bad guy. There are neither.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I don't believe in democracy, freedom, liberty, or justice. I believe in what's effective. You think that's something about "corporations". It's not. Just because things aren't about democracy, freedom, liberty, or justice doesn't mean they're about corporations. Wake up. You're wearing blinders, Dave. Blinders that are making you look for a good guy and, as such, a bad guy. There are neither.
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My point becomes that you are one of the sock puppets, induced by the six figure inflation of ego. I don't care who you sell out to. You will find, in the end, that whatever business, criminal or otherwise, succeeds wildly, that business must become a bank to launder outsized profits. Really big profits build really big Banks. Could that be the embryo for "too big to fail?"
 
DaveFagan said:
My point becomes that you are one of the sock puppets, induced by the six figure inflation of ego. I don't care who you sell out to. You will find, in the end, that whatever business, criminal or otherwise, succeeds wildly, that business must become a bank to launder outsized profits. Really big profits build really big Banks. Could that be the embryo for "too big to fail?"
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Yes, I'm a sock puppet for success and meeting challenges. Are you?
 
Captain America said:
What we have here is a sort of a "Bay of Pigs," scenario, in reverse.

Instead of Russia supporting a communist country in our back yard, we have the US supporting a Western leaning country in Russia's back yard.

The irony is, (or hypocracy if you prefer,) when Russia did it, they were wrong but when we do it, we're right?

Hmmmmmmm................

Not saying it's apples for apples, just kinda similar.
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Yep, pretty simple CA. We just need more Americans to see it for what it is.
 
DaveFagan said:
I remember in Vietnam that a Vietnamese lady friend asked me "How does it help the Vietnamese to bring war and death to the Country?" It was a great question, but I was still a BLIND patriot. After I came home, I was really surprised by all the protest about the War. As I learned the truth of the War, my blinders fell off. It took a long time to see that a CORPORATE hand was in the puppeteer's sock to the detriment of the people, to the detriment of the Nation, to the detriment of everything, except Military/Industrial/Corporate bottom lines, I thought they temporarily had control of the people's gov't. It's been temporary since the 1900s. I harbor no illusions about democracy, freedom, liberty, and justice and the use of these buzzwords in a controlled Media. The Media control began with the CIA and has gotten out of hand. The USA Mainstream Media reputation is the same as lold Soviet Russia and deservedly so. I observe that for you to be comfortble in jour job, you must wear blinders full time, or you wouldn't be able to do your job. You will. of course see that as dutiful patriotism, not brainwashed. If you thought that you were spreadin death , mayhem, chaos, misery and violence around the World, you might not be "comfortable" in your job. When big Corporate rules the World, as it does in the USA, it is no different thatn a dictator, just another variety. I don't make random decisions.
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Don't feed the troll. It lives under a "criticism = blind hatred" prerogative, and humorously enough, seems to blindly defend American foreign policy at every turn.

It's not worth your time.
 
StringBean said:
Don't feed the troll. It lives under a "criticism = blind hatred" prerogative, and humorously enough, seems to blindly defend American foreign policy at every turn.

It's not worth your time.
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I defend all foreign policy, if it's effective. What Russia's doing is fine, from Russia's point of view.

These simple things...people have so much trouble with.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I defend all foreign policy, if it's effective. What Russia's doing is fine, from Russia's point of view.

These simple things...people have so much trouble with.
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Anschluss was pretty effective too. Hell, even the Holocaust--from Germany's perspective.

But good foreign policy sees the long-term trajectory of things. Like those who said Afghanistan is a quagmire and Iraq makes no sense.
 
StringBean said:
Anschluss was pretty effective too. Hell, even the Holocaust--from Germany's perspective.
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Was Anschluss effective? Or did it backfire? I could ask the same of the Holocaust, but that wasn't a foreign policy anyway.

But good foreign policy sees the long-term trajectory of things.
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I don't think anyone argued otherwise?

Like those who said Afghanistan is a quagmire and Iraq makes no sense.
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Afghanistan was pointless. Iraq was badly planned.
 
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Objective Voice said:
You're right, they did. When they felt their backs were up against the wall due to oil import restrictions, they responded by aligning themselves with Germany and attacking the U.S. at Pearl Harbor, HI. Could Russia make a similar move and their economy is destabilized due to crippling economic sanctions initiated by the West (U.S.) and significant loses in oil revenue from decreased exports to the EU?

My answer: Y'all better hold on to your butts. This Ukrainian situation could go sideways real fast.
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Or, Putin could tell his posse, "boy, we can't afford to het into a shootin' war. We better figure out how to step back from this without looking like a buncha punks".

There a couple million battle hardened veterans in America that could be deployed against a Russian army that hasn't seen combat in nearly 30 years. That's a distinct advantage that we have over the Russians.
 
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