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Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162:334]

Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

You are mistaking "parent" with "sperm donor" or "Biological father". They are not the same. A kid may want to believe that his adoptive father is his biological father...and he would be wrong.
On the other hand, the same kid may refuse to accept his biological father/sperm donor as his "real parent" because that person had zero to do with parenting him and raising him, and the kid would be absolutely correct.
Parenting is not donating a sperm or an egg. That is where you premise fails.

Once the egg is fertilized and a zygote is produced both parties involved are parents. My premise is not only sound logically, but scientifically sound. We can talk of when the male party gets parental rights, but to suggest he isn't a parent is wrong. Anyone that really believes a caregiver is a parent might be right in their own little society, but outside of that they are wrong.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Don't fool yourself. You may want to believe you aren't supporting bigotry, but that is exactly what you are doing.

I know what I support and don't support. I don't think you're qualified to tell me what I support.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

but you can't make the argument that people have the right to a government marriage.
Why not? If you can get marred then so should anyone else.

The only reason it has to be extended is because it exists in the first place, but government marriage by itself is not a human right.
Neither is the governments right to deny marrioage to anyone.

As for private discrimination, yes, people have the right to discriminate against anyone
Nice defense of bigotry, but no they do not have the right to discriminate in matters that are open to the public.

they please and those people that were sitting at the lunch counters were trespassing on private property.
That is ignorant banter. You can not trespass on certain parts of a property open to the public.

The reason I laugh at gays
It is a way to channel prejudice and mask ignorance.

when they start bitching about not getting a government marriage is only because they keep referring to the government marriage as a human right
It is a human right to be treated like your fellow human.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Once the egg is fertilized and a zygote is produced both parties involved are parents. My premise is not only sound logically, but scientifically sound. We can talk of when the male party gets parental rights, but to suggest he isn't a parent is wrong. Anyone that really believes a caregiver is a parent might be right in their own little society, but outside of that they are wrong.

Nope. The fertilzing of the egg and production of a zygote associates them biologically, but it doesn't make them a "parent". You don't understand the difference between a sperm donor and a parent. Your premise is only scientifically sound in that it makes the sperm donor the biological father. It doesn't make him a parent. You are starting from a flawed premise which incidentally makes your continuing arguments invalid as well. You need to be able to understand the distinction between a parent and a biological father/sperm donor. They are not one and the same.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

I know what I support and don't support. I don't think you're qualified to tell me what I support.

You can choose to believe whatever you want. But when you don't support anti-discrimination laws, you are inherently supporting bigotry. That may not be your main motivation, collaterally you are.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Nope. The fertilzing of the egg and production of a zygote associates them biologically, but it doesn't make them a "parent". You don't understand the difference between a sperm donor and a parent. Your premise is only scientifically sound in that it makes the sperm donor the biological father. It doesn't make him a parent. You are starting from a flawed premise which incidentally makes your continuing arguments invalid as well. You need to be able to understand the distinction between a parent and a biological father/sperm donor. They are not one and the same.

Sorry, but they are one in the same thing. There is no distinction between the two at all. Btw, the sperm donor crap is still false.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Sorry, but they are one in the same thing. There is no distinction between the two at all. Btw, the sperm donor crap is still false.

Again...hate to tell you, but you are wrong. I'm not going to continue to argue this with you. You choose to believe a false premise...that's your choice. It won't ever make it so. Shooting a sperm has never and never will make someone a parent. That's it.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

You can choose to believe whatever you want. But when you don't support anti-discrimination laws, you are inherently supporting bigotry. That may not be your main motivation, collaterally you are.

Not supporting a law on the matter doesn't mean I support or don't support anything inherently. If I say people have the right to their property, labor, service and association than that is what I mean. People might use those rights to discriminate against others, but that doesn't mean I support such actions. All it means is that I understand that people have the right to discriminate if they so decide. It just so happens to also mean that I understand that people have the right to complain and not do business with those people either.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Again...hate to tell you, but you are wrong. I'm not going to continue to argue this with you. You choose to believe a false premise...that's your choice. It won't ever make it so. Shooting a sperm has never and never will make someone a parent. That's it.

I never said shooting sperm by itself meant anything. What I said is that when the sperm fertilizes the egg the man is a father. That argument is right no matter how you look at it. Btw, who does the state consider first on the custody chain? The biological parents. Who must give up their rights or have them removed for some else to have the kids? Those same people. Everyone else is always just a caregiver in any sense of the word.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Not supporting a law on the matter doesn't mean I support or don't support anything inherently. If I say people have the right to their property, labor, service and association than that is what I mean. People might use those rights to discriminate against others, but that doesn't mean I support such actions. All it means is that I understand that people have the right to discriminate if they so decide. It just so happens to also mean that I understand that people have the right to complain and not do business with those people either.

Your support has allowed them to discriminate whether you support it or not. Its like being an aider/abettor.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

If there was any doubt that this war is over:

Record Support for Gay Marriage; Half See it as a Constitutional Right - ABC News



Record numbers of Americans in a new ABC News/Washington Post poll support gay marriage, say adoption by gay couples should be legal and see gays and lesbians as good parents. Most oppose a right to refuse service to gays, including on religious grounds. And, by a closer margin, more also accept than reject gay marriage as a constitutional right.

The results continue a dramatic transformation of public attitudes on the issue, led by political, legislative and court-ordered developments alike. Seventeen states now allow gay marriage, and federal courts in four others – most recently Texas and Virginia – have rejected laws banning it.

See PDF with full results and charts here
.

http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1159a2GayMarriage.pdf

Let me get this right. There are lots of studies showing the very poor performance of our school system. The dumbing down of America as they call it. And you want to use popular opinion as a measure of what is right?
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

Let me get this right. There are lots of studies showing the very poor performance of our school system. The dumbing down of America as they call it. And you want to use popular opinion as a measure of what is right?


The world has been turned on its head. The founders knew democracy sucked. This is a good example.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

You mean like how I don't support anti-discrimination laws? That has nothing to do with supporting bigotry
But of course it does. In the absence of anti-discrimination laws a lot of bigots would openly discriminate against some people and not opposing that is condoning it.

but supporting the rights of people to their property, association, labor and service.
Except none of that is in question here.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Not supporting a law on the matter doesn't mean I support or don't support anything inherently.
Actually you do even if you deny it or do not understand it.

If I say people have the right to their property, labor, service and association than that is what I mean.
Only two possibilities exist here. You totally lack the understanding why that does not apply here, even though in several past post it has been explained, or are attempting to hide the defense of bigotry behind the pretense of defending some rights that are not being attacked.

People might use those rights to discriminate against others, but that doesn't mean I support such actions.
No, people discriminate because they are bigots and some ate attempting to defend their bigotry by claiming property rights.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

The world has been turned on its head. The founders knew democracy sucked. This is a good example.

Unrestricted democracy sucks and they knew it. But then, they limited Franchise when they had control, we don't today.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

But of course it does. In the absence of anti-discrimination laws a lot of bigots would openly discriminate against some people and not opposing that is condoning it.

Not opposing something could very well mean indifference, which is not actually condoning or supporting anything. It's just indifference, much like nature doesn't support or condone the peoples suffering, but is merely indifferent to it. When the government doesn't act on something that doesn't mean that it condones or supports anything, it could very well mean indifference, or contempt or nothing at all, as the motivations of the government could vary and have not been disclosed.

As for me, I support the rights of the people; and I understand the foundation of all rights, which is body sovereignty, is a property right much like all other rights and is empowered by the right to discrimination; and any breach of that right by the government is a fundamental breach of all rights, as you can not have rights without protecting it.

Except none of that is in question here.

No, all of which come into question given the situation. If the individual must provide you his labor then his right to labor comes into play. If the individual must provide you his service then his right to service comes into play. If at any point his property is used his right to property comes into play. If at any point an association is considered than his right to association comes into play.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Actually you do even if you deny it or do not understand it.

No, there is no direct connection between the two. You are simply believing that this is black and white and anything you think I believe has to be what I believe. You're wrong.

Only two possibilities exist here. You totally lack the understanding why that does not apply here, even though in several past post it has been explained, or are attempting to hide the defense of bigotry behind the pretense of defending some rights that are not being attacked.

I'm hiding nothing. I have made myself clear on this issue hundreds of times by now, and at this point you simply refuse to accept my argument as my honest opinion. I can't make you believe me if you don't desire to do so.

No, people discriminate because they are bigots and some ate attempting to defend their bigotry by claiming property rights.

That doesn't really matter to my argument, now does it? Of course not.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

If there was any doubt that this war is over:

Record Support for Gay Marriage; Half See it as a Constitutional Right - ABC News



Record numbers of Americans in a new ABC News/Washington Post poll support gay marriage, say adoption by gay couples should be legal and see gays and lesbians as good parents. Most oppose a right to refuse service to gays, including on religious grounds. And, by a closer margin, more also accept than reject gay marriage as a constitutional right.

The results continue a dramatic transformation of public attitudes on the issue, led by political, legislative and court-ordered developments alike. Seventeen states now allow gay marriage, and federal courts in four others – most recently Texas and Virginia – have rejected laws banning it.

See PDF with full results and charts here
.

http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1159a2GayMarriage.pdf

of course theres no doubt.
the victor of the war is going to be equal rights that obvious. You can tell by the sheer panic and fear that bigots and or people who support discrimination are displaying. Its here and in real life and even in government, its hilarious. Theres a couple last ditch efforts and hailmarys but its all for not. Equal rights is winning and nobody cares about the ones that bothers.


3/3/14 Version 7.0

22 States with Equal Rights (4 pending)

Massachusetts - May 17, 2004
Connecticut - November 12, 2008
Iowa - April 27, 2009
Vermont - September 1, 2009
New Hampshire - January 1, 2010
Washing D.C. - March 9, 2010
FALL OF DADT Dec 18, 2010
New York - July 24, 2011
Washington - December 6, 2012
Maine - December 29, 2012
Maryland - January 1, 2013
FALL OF DOMA - June 26, 2013
California - June 28, 2013
Delaware - July 1, 2013
Rhode Island - August 1, 2013
Minnesota - August 1, 2013
New Jersey - October 21, 2013
Hawaii - December 2, 2013
New Mexico – December 19, 2013
Utah – December 20. 2013 Currently Stayed and will be ruled on with OK)
Oklahoma - Currently Stayed and will be ruled on with UT)
GSK v. Abbott Laboratories - January 21, 2014 (could be huge in gay rights, discrimination/heightened scrutiny)
Kentucky - February 2/14/14 (Must recognize out-of-state marriages) which will lead to their ban being defeated
Virginia - February 2/14/14 (Stayed)
Texas - February 2/26/2014 (pending 10th Circuit Court of Appeals)
Illinois - June 1, 2014 effective

20 States Working Towards Equal Rights

13 States with Pending Court Cases to Establish Equal Rights
Alabama
Idaho
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan (Feb 2014 Trial)
Mississippi
Missouri
North Carolina
Pennsylvania (June 14 Trial)
South Carolina
Tennessee (Direct US Constitution Challenge)
West Virginia
Wisconsin

4 States with Court Case(s) and Legislation to establish Equal Rights
Arizona
Arkansas (Decision Pending and 2016 ballot)
Nevada
Ohio (December 2013 trial) Trial had narrow ruling that Ohio will recognize OTHER state marriages but didn’t impact bans. New cases expected.

4 States with Legislation to Establish Equal Rights
Alaska
Colorado
Florida
Oregon

thats 42 states that could have equal rights by 2016 and some much sooner!

US Court of Appeals Tracker
Map: Court Locator
1st - all states have equal rights
2nd - all states have equal rights
3rd - pending
4th - april/may court case
5th- pending
6th - pending
7th- pending
8th- two cases that the plaintiffs PLAN to take all the way up if needed but nothing pending
9th- pending (statement released "as soon as possible")

Also 3 State Attorney Generals no longer defending the constitutionality of bans, joining the case against them or reviewing their constitutionality
Nevada
Oregon
Pennsylvania

7 States that still have unequal rights and nothing pending to change it yet, that’s it 7

Indiana
Montana
Nebraska
Georgia
North Dakota
South Dakota
Wyoming


#EqualRightsAreWinning!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

of course theres no doubt.
the victor of the war is going to be equal rights that obvious. You can tell by the sheer panic and fear that bigots and or people who support discrimination are displaying. Its here and in real life and even in government, its hilarious. Theres a couple last ditch efforts and hailmarys but its all for not. Equal rights is winning and nobody cares about the ones that bothers.


3/3/14 Version 7.0

22 States with Equal Rights (4 pending)

Massachusetts - May 17, 2004
Connecticut - November 12, 2008
Iowa - April 27, 2009
Vermont - September 1, 2009
New Hampshire - January 1, 2010
Washing D.C. - March 9, 2010
FALL OF DADT Dec 18, 2010
New York - July 24, 2011
Washington - December 6, 2012
Maine - December 29, 2012
Maryland - January 1, 2013
FALL OF DOMA - June 26, 2013
California - June 28, 2013
Delaware - July 1, 2013
Rhode Island - August 1, 2013
Minnesota - August 1, 2013
New Jersey - October 21, 2013
Hawaii - December 2, 2013
New Mexico – December 19, 2013
Utah – December 20. 2013 Currently Stayed and will be ruled on with OK)
Oklahoma - Currently Stayed and will be ruled on with UT)
GSK v. Abbott Laboratories - January 21, 2014 (could be huge in gay rights, discrimination/heightened scrutiny)
Kentucky - February 2/14/14 (Must recognize out-of-state marriages) which will lead to their ban being defeated
Virginia - February 2/14/14 (Stayed)
Texas - February 2/26/2014 (pending 10th Circuit Court of Appeals)
Illinois - June 1, 2014 effective

20 States Working Towards Equal Rights

13 States with Pending Court Cases to Establish Equal Rights
Alabama
Idaho
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan (Feb 2014 Trial)
Mississippi
Missouri
North Carolina
Pennsylvania (June 14 Trial)
South Carolina
Tennessee (Direct US Constitution Challenge)
West Virginia
Wisconsin

4 States with Court Case(s) and Legislation to establish Equal Rights
Arizona
Arkansas (Decision Pending and 2016 ballot)
Nevada
Ohio (December 2013 trial) Trial had narrow ruling that Ohio will recognize OTHER state marriages but didn’t impact bans. New cases expected.

4 States with Legislation to Establish Equal Rights
Alaska
Colorado
Florida
Oregon

thats 42 states that could have equal rights by 2016 and some much sooner!

US Court of Appeals Tracker
Map: Court Locator
1st - all states have equal rights
2nd - all states have equal rights
3rd - pending
4th - april/may court case
5th- pending
6th - pending
7th- pending
8th- two cases that the plaintiffs PLAN to take all the way up if needed but nothing pending
9th- pending (statement released "as soon as possible")

Also 3 State Attorney Generals no longer defending the constitutionality of bans, joining the case against them or reviewing their constitutionality
Nevada
Oregon
Pennsylvania

7 States that still have unequal rights and nothing pending to change it yet, that’s it 7

Indiana
Montana
Nebraska
Georgia
North Dakota
South Dakota
Wyoming


#EqualRightsAreWinning!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE]


You dont want equal rights . You progressives want special rights for special groups. You love to categorize people and set them against each other. If we dont agree with you we are bigots Who could oppose equal rights?
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]



You dont want equal rights . You progressives want special rights for special groups. You love to categorize people and set them against each other. If we dont agree with you we are bigots Who could oppose equal rights?[/QUOTE]

what's special about gay marriage?
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Dude....I was responding to your post.

And the moon is made of green cheese.


Memory problem....or just a reading comprehension one?

Again, ironic. Did I ask about how many kids? Reading comprehension, indeed. I see a lack of integrity. Not unexpected though.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Most Important Problem | Gallup Historical Trends

Just pointing out how the left misleads us, especially the news media. Story after story, headline after headline on gay marriage.
32nd on the list of the most important problems to Americans, and that's not counting economic problems at all. 12 spots below that last item to register 1%.
Of course, big issue for Obama. Why? He could not care less about gay rights, but he does care about gay votes. He is destroying the country in and out, but don't worry, he's evolved on gay marriage. What a bunch of tools.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

Not opposing something could very well mean indifference, which is not actually condoning or supporting anything.
If it is indifference it is a callous one and unavoidably one must ask what kind of man can be so callous to not care about injustice to his fellow man? Indifference in this case is self defeating, because discrimination is not always perpetrated by only some people and always to others, we all become victims of it sooner or later, but I suspect that indifference is not the case here.

It's just indifference, much like nature doesn't support or condone the peoples suffering, but is merely indifferent to it.
No, nature has not capacity for indifference.

When the government doesn't act on something that doesn't mean that it condones or supports anything, it could very well mean indifference, or contempt or nothing at all, as the motivations of the government could vary and have not been disclosed.
Meaningless double talk. WE are the government.

As for me, I support the rights of the people
That is just something you are hiding behind. In this case there is not need to support any rights ans they are not being threatened.

and I understand the foundation of all rights
Actually you have proven the opposite.

If the individual must provide you his labor then his right to labor comes into play.
But as you well know that is not the case. No one must provide anything. The individual is offering his property for sale to the public. If the individual does not wish to offer his property to sale to the public there are ways to do that too. The individual is making all the decisions and each one has its own pros and cons. We as a civilized society have established from precedents that certain rules must apply when one deals with the public and no one is asked or forced to deal with the public.

If at any point an association is considered than his right to association comes into play.
But no association comes into play either so this too is nothing more than an unfounded attempt to excuse bigotry and bigotry has been deemed detrimental to an orderly and civilized society.
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage[W:162]

1.)You dont want equal rights .
2.)You progressives want special rights for special groups.
3.)You love to categorize people and set them against each other.
4.) If we dont agree with you we are bigots
5.) Who could oppose equal rights?

1.) false
2.) not a progressive and this is not special rights LMAO
3.) equal rights benefits us all and puts us against evil doers
4.) agreeing with me is meaningless, equal rights is a factual thing also nobody has to agree with me, you just proved you are severly uneducated about this topic
5.) i dont know who could?

let us know when you have anything accurate, truthful , factual and or merit to add

sorry it upsets you that equal rights is winning but it makes most proud
 
Re: Record Support for Gay Marriage

It's just not a big deal. If they want to play house, let them play house.

But this will hardly be the end of it. No one invents reasons to play the victim card like the gay community. I swear, they're convinced their ancestors were slaves, too.

Invents reasons? They're barred from getting married and people like you are trying to make Jim Crow make a comeback for the gays.
 
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