• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine

Two things, again remembering that I'm not at all a patriot.
First, we don't know whether our IC knew about this or not, and secondly, predicted or not, what different actions to date do you think should've been taken? I can't think of one appropriate action to have taken up to now, and it seems that the isolation idea may work pretty well since so many nations are seemingly on board. That's beside the point though, what actions do you think we should've taken that we haven't?

All this super excitement over our response to this just seems way overblown to me. I sure didn't see anyone here getting their panties in a wad when Russia didn't respond aggressively when we invaded and occupied Iraq, which is a whole lot less "understandable" than Russia going into Crimea where they already had a base of operation and local cooperation.

None whatsoever. At this point, I don't believe Putin has acted out of line. But I still have no confidence in our IC.

And I totally agree with your second point!
 
Last edited:
[h=1]Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia
if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine
[/h]
Obama threatens to

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the time for warnings is over. The article says they are considering what steps to take. Why don't they already KNOW what steps to take? Why are no contingency plans for this in place already? If our intelligence didn't see this coming? Why not?

I blame our intelligence community. We spend billions​ of dollars to get a heads up on this type action. What happened?

Personally, I think US and other intelligence knows all about what's going on over there through satellite imagery and ground intelligence. They also have contingency plans in place for various possible scenarios. I think what's happening now is the normal build up of public opinion that is needed to gel opposition in places like Europe, America itself, Canada, and other western allies. The movement to cancel participation in the G8 in Sochi by the G7 is just such a move to increase awareness in the public that this is a serious "crisis" that is escalating.

I don't think there's anything that can be imminently done here - considering that it took months to get the world behind taking back Kuwait after Iraq invaded and it took the better part of a year to get coordinated movement to move into Afghanistan, etc. And look at the years and years of discussion/debate needed to move on sanctions against Iran and their nuclear aspirations.

Unless this drastically escalates on the Russian side, or if the western Ukrainians and the government rise up against this Russian action, I don't see anything happening any time soon.
 
In a perfect world, I might find myself agreeing with you. In the imperfect world, with nations who still operate as little more than tribal war grounds, and where oppression is still the law of the land, I will have to disagree. We aren't living in a world made up entirely of western democratic nations, and as is necessary, playing to the lowest common denominator means that someone has to wield the big stick.

That's the whole point. Lately its been the democratic nations that are a threat to global peace. I still don't see this as a bad development.
 
[h=1]Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia
if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine
[/h]
Obama threatens to

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the time for warnings is over. The article says they are considering what steps to take. Why don't they already KNOW what steps to take? Why are no contingency plans for this in place already? If our intelligence didn't see this coming? Why not?

I blame our intelligence community. We spend billions​ of dollars to get a heads up on this type action. What happened?




http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-russia-violating-international-law-193047467--politics.html

http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-threat-ukraine-navy-dangerous-escalation-moscow-175954373.html

http://news.yahoo.com/u-sanctions-russia-over-ukraine-europe-senator-175030434--sector.html


Here ya go Maggie. Here is what our Former CIA Chief said.




Ex- CIA Chief: Why We Keep Getting Putin Wrong.....


Blame a myopic mindset—and an intelligence corps focused on terrorism, not Moscow.

The last time Russian troops invaded one of its neighbors, the U.S. intelligence community was also caught off guard.

The year was 2008 and the country was Georgia instead of the Ukraine. And just as in 2014, back then there were early signs that Moscow was serious—it was issuing visas to ethnic Russian speakers inGeorgia, like it's doing now in Ukraine. U.S. analysts just didn’t believe Russia would go as far as it did.

Today, as in 2008, American policy makers have found themselves burned after trying to make Vladimir Putin a partner when Putin himself sees America as a rival. This has often led Republican and Democratic led administrations to find themselves flat footed in the face of Russian aggression and U.S. intelligence analysts racing to explain how they misread Putin’s motivations.

“This is less a question of how many collection resources we throw at Russia and more broadly about the analytic challenge of understanding Putin’s mind set,” said Michael Hayden, a former CIA director and NSA director under President George W. Bush. “Here our Secretary of State is saying this is not the Cold War, it’s win-win and it’s not zero sum. But for Vladimir Putin it is zero sum. That’s what we need to understand.”

For the last 13 years, the way you got ahead in America's intelligence services was to specialize in stopping terrorists. Compared to al-Qaeda, the Russians were seen as has-beensalbeit nuclear-armed has-beens. Spying on Moscow was considered a second-tier priority. Sure, the Russian intelligence agencies were (and are) one of the world's most sophisticated; competing against the sons of the KGB was one of the toughest challenges for an American operative or analyst. But the stakes just weren't that high. It was like having a chess match against your grandfather, while everyone else played Call of Duty for money.....snip~

Ex- CIA Chief: Why We Keep Getting Putin Wrong - The Daily Beast

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-23.html
 
Last edited:
They don't care imo. They're used to be isolated.
Beside of that EU won't isolate Russia at all.
 
[h=1]Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia
if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine
[/h]
Obama threatens to

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the time for warnings is over. The article says they are considering what steps to take. Why don't they already KNOW what steps to take? Why are no contingency plans for this in place already? If our intelligence didn't see this coming? Why not?

I blame our intelligence community. We spend billions​ of dollars to get a heads up on this type action. What happened?

Well for one, it's literally impossible to tap a secure line.

So, if I have a cable going from me to you, without some device to intercept what you and I talk in our phones... there is nothing anyone can do to intercept the information going through the line.

Cell phones are easy to tap because if you know the frequency at which waves are being trasmitted from phone A to phone B, you can tap in and listen on the conversation easily. If the data is encrypted, I can still store it... and when I find the decryption key, I'll find out all you talked. the NSA can spy on you because commercial encryption methods as well as modulation frequences are well known by the state. It's how they use to block transmissions, you see a frequency that isn't used by either a telecommunication company or someone on the list... you block it. That's, like, the readers' digest of how things are.
It's why in the Oval office, Obama still has a phone with a cord and talks on a "landline" between the oval office and Moscow when he took that fancy picture that is used by everyone when reporting on Obama.
 
Ok, because Bush got away with blaming his lie on faulty IC, they started focusing on his silly "war on terrorism".
 
Coin showed me this earlier.....its dead on. ;)

Why Russia No Longer Fears the West

Western leaders are stunned because they haven’t realized Russia’s owners no longer respect Europeans the way they once did after the Cold War. Russia thinks the West is no longer a crusading alliance. Russia thinks the West is now all about the money.

Putin’s henchmen know this personally. Russia’s rulers have been buying up Europe for years. They have mansions and luxury flats from London’s West End to France’s Cote d’Azure. Their children are safe at British boarding and Swiss finishing schools. And their money is squirrelled away in Austrian banks and British tax havens.

Putin’s inner circle no longer fear the European establishment. They once imagined them all in MI6. Now they know better. They have seen firsthand how obsequious Western aristocrats and corporate tycoons suddenly turn when their billions come into play. They now view them as hypocrites—the same European elites who help them hide their fortunes.

Once Russia’s powerful listened when European embassies issued statements denouncing the baroque corruption of Russian state companies. But no more. Because they know full well it is European bankers, businessmen and lawyers who do the dirty work for them placing the proceeds of corruption in hideouts from the Dutch Antilles to the British Virgin Islands.

We are not talking big money. But very big money. None other than Putin’s Central Bank has estimated that two thirds of the $56 billion exiting Russia in 2012 might be traceable to illegal activities. Crimes like kickbacks, drug money or tax fraud. This is the money that posh English bankers are rolling out the red carpet for in London.

Behind European corruption, Russia sees American weakness. The Kremlin does not believe European countries – with the exception of Germany – are truly independent of the United States. They see them as client states that Washington could force now, as it once did in the Cold War, not to do such business with the Kremlin

Russia sees an America distracted: Putin’s Ukrainian gambit was a shock to the U.S. foreign policy establishment. They prefer talking about China, or participating in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Russia sees an America vulnerable: in Afghanistan, in Syria and on Iran—a United States that desperately needs Russian support to continue shipping its supplies, host any peace conference or enforce its sanctions.

Moscow is not nervous. Russia’s elites have exposed themselves in a gigantic manner – everything they hold dear is now locked up in European properties and bank accounts. Theoretically, this makes them vulnerable. The EU could, with a sudden rush of money-laundering investigations and visa bans, cut them off from their wealth. But, time and time again, they have watched European governments balk at passing anything remotely similar to the U.S. Magnitsky Act, which bars a handful of criminal-officials from entering the United States.....snip


Read more: Why Russia No Longer Fears the West - Ben Judah - POLITICO Magazine
 
Stocks down; oil up; Congress out-of-town due to weather unti Wednesday;
Reid trying to get Congress to work on Friday.
Did you notice the problem yet ?
 
Why Russia No Longer Fears the West
Who would be the first to complain if NATO blockaded Russian ports?
If NATO had Turkey cut off the oil and gas lines.
If all trade were cut off to Russia and its puppets ?
 
Coin showed me this earlier.....its dead on. ;)

Why Russia No Longer Fears the West

Western leaders are stunned because they haven’t realized Russia’s owners no longer respect Europeans the way they once did after the Cold War. Russia thinks the West is no longer a crusading alliance. Russia thinks the West is now all about the money.

Putin’s henchmen know this personally. Russia’s rulers have been buying up Europe for years. They have mansions and luxury flats from London’s West End to France’s Cote d’Azure. Their children are safe at British boarding and Swiss finishing schools. And their money is squirrelled away in Austrian banks and British tax havens.

Putin’s inner circle no longer fear the European establishment. They once imagined them all in MI6. Now they know better. They have seen firsthand how obsequious Western aristocrats and corporate tycoons suddenly turn when their billions come into play. They now view them as hypocrites—the same European elites who help them hide their fortunes.

Once Russia’s powerful listened when European embassies issued statements denouncing the baroque corruption of Russian state companies. But no more. Because they know full well it is European bankers, businessmen and lawyers who do the dirty work for them placing the proceeds of corruption in hideouts from the Dutch Antilles to the British Virgin Islands.

We are not talking big money. But very big money. None other than Putin’s Central Bank has estimated that two thirds of the $56 billion exiting Russia in 2012 might be traceable to illegal activities. Crimes like kickbacks, drug money or tax fraud. This is the money that posh English bankers are rolling out the red carpet for in London.

Behind European corruption, Russia sees American weakness. The Kremlin does not believe European countries – with the exception of Germany – are truly independent of the United States. They see them as client states that Washington could force now, as it once did in the Cold War, not to do such business with the Kremlin

Russia sees an America distracted: Putin’s Ukrainian gambit was a shock to the U.S. foreign policy establishment. They prefer talking about China, or participating in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks. Russia sees an America vulnerable: in Afghanistan, in Syria and on Iran—a United States that desperately needs Russian support to continue shipping its supplies, host any peace conference or enforce its sanctions.

Moscow is not nervous. Russia’s elites have exposed themselves in a gigantic manner – everything they hold dear is now locked up in European properties and bank accounts. Theoretically, this makes them vulnerable. The EU could, with a sudden rush of money-laundering investigations and visa bans, cut them off from their wealth. But, time and time again, they have watched European governments balk at passing anything remotely similar to the U.S. Magnitsky Act, which bars a handful of criminal-officials from entering the United States.....snip


Read more: Why Russia No Longer Fears the West - Ben Judah - POLITICO Magazine

Europe now has all those Russian oil and gas pipelines delivering Russian oil and gas. If Russia does get peeved at Europe, guess what they will do. OOPs, no more oil and gas although that would put a crimp in their Ruble, Europe would be far more hurt. Hmm, Europe to place sanctions on Russia, Russia has an easy reply.
 
Europe now has all those Russian oil and gas pipelines delivering Russian oil and gas. If Russia does get peeved at Europe, guess what they will do. OOPs, no more oil and gas although that would put a crimp in their Ruble, Europe would be far more hurt. Hmm, Europe to place sanctions on Russia, Russia has an easy reply.

Don't you think that China would gladly relieve Russia of that oil and gas?
 
Ok, because Bush got away with blaming his lie on faulty IC, they started focusing on his silly "war on terrorism".

Well, Monte let not forget what Gates says.


Obama must carefully calibrate Russia response, rhetoric: Gates

President Barack Obama needs to look "two or three moves out" as he weighs his response to Russia's seizure of Ukraine's Crimea Peninsula, which Moscow is unlikely to soon reverse, Obama's former defense secretary, Robert Gates, said on Sunday.

Gates, a Russia expert and former CIA chief, portrayed a difficult path for Obama in which European allies may "huff and puff" but fail to match rhetoric with strong action and where Russian President Vladimir Putin feels he has the upper hand.

"From Putin's standpoint, he's in the catbird seat. He's put himself in a position where we need him in terms of the Syrian chemical (weapons) deal. We need him in terms of the Iranian nuclear program," Gates, who served as defense secretary from 2006 to 2011, said in a telephone interview with Reuters.

"We need the Russians in terms of getting our (military) equipment out of Afghanistan."

Asked how he would advise Obama in the crisis in Ukraine, Gates pointed to lessons from Russia's war with Georgia in 2008, when he said Washington wanted to react with more forceful economic and political measures than EU allies did.

"We ran the risk of being the ones who would be isolated because we favored a much more aggressive response than any of our (European) allies did," said Gates, who was President George W. Bush's defense secretary at the time.

"So that's one of the things the president's got to look out for."

Indeed, the European Union is not expected to match the United States in threatening sanctions against Russia when its foreign ministers meet to discuss Ukraine on Monday, instead pushing for mediation between Moscow and Kiev, officials say.....snip~

Obama must carefully calibrate Russia response, rhetoric: Gates
 
Europe now has all those Russian oil and gas pipelines delivering Russian oil and gas.
The World has plenty of sources of oil and gas.
A little rationing to get by blockading of ALL Russian goods wouldn't hut the World.
But it would hurt Russia, deeply.
And the G-7 could reform in June .
 
As my Air Force Dad would say, you bet your ass they would.
China is already invested in Ukraine.
Time for the World to turn off the spigot from our side first .
Don't you think that China would gladly relieve Russia of that oil and gas?
 
Last edited:
Well, Monte let not forget what Gates says.


Obama must carefully calibrate Russia response, rhetoric: Gates

President Barack Obama needs to look "two or three moves out" as he weighs his response to Russia's seizure of Ukraine's Crimea Peninsula, which Moscow is unlikely to soon reverse, Obama's former defense secretary, Robert Gates, said on Sunday.

Gates, a Russia expert and former CIA chief, portrayed a difficult path for Obama in which European allies may "huff and puff" but fail to match rhetoric with strong action and where Russian President Vladimir Putin feels he has the upper hand.

"From Putin's standpoint, he's in the catbird seat. He's put himself in a position where we need him in terms of the Syrian chemical (weapons) deal. We need him in terms of the Iranian nuclear program," Gates, who served as defense secretary from 2006 to 2011, said in a telephone interview with Reuters.

"We need the Russians in terms of getting our (military) equipment out of Afghanistan."

Asked how he would advise Obama in the crisis in Ukraine, Gates pointed to lessons from Russia's war with Georgia in 2008, when he said Washington wanted to react with more forceful economic and political measures than EU allies did.

"We ran the risk of being the ones who would be isolated because we favored a much more aggressive response than any of our (European) allies did," said Gates, who was President George W. Bush's defense secretary at the time.

"So that's one of the things the president's got to look out for."

Indeed, the European Union is not expected to match the United States in threatening sanctions against Russia when its foreign ministers meet to discuss Ukraine on Monday, instead pushing for mediation between Moscow and Kiev, officials say.....snip~

Obama must carefully calibrate Russia response, rhetoric: Gates

I hear ya man, but I have no respect for Gates, and I think Putin has legitimacy in his actions, SO FAR!! Putin starts doing to Ukraine what Bush did to Iraq, I'll be singing a whole different tune.
 
Last edited:
If Russia does get peeved at Europe, guess what they will do. OOPs, no more oil and gas although that would put a crimp in their Ruble, Europe would be far more hurt. Hmm, Europe to place sanctions on Russia, Russia has an easy reply.
I encourage Russia to take your advice.
Once you lose a customer, it's tough getting them back.
And, how's he gonna pay for Sochi?
And he's now probably lost the G-8 summit in Sochi.
When the IMF cuts off funds, we'll see how bellicose Putin is .
 
[h=1]Obama warns US will 'isolate' Russia
if Putin doesn't pull back in Ukraine
[/h]
Obama threatens to

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the time for warnings is over. The article says they are considering what steps to take. Why don't they already KNOW what steps to take? Why are no contingency plans for this in place already? If our intelligence didn't see this coming? Why not?

I blame our intelligence community. We spend billions​ of dollars to get a heads up on this type action. What happened?

Here's where some of that billions in security went. Nelson Mandela memorial interpreter 'was a fake' - Telegraph
 
Europe now has all those Russian oil and gas pipelines delivering Russian oil and gas. If Russia does get peeved at Europe, guess what they will do. OOPs, no more oil and gas although that would put a crimp in their Ruble, Europe would be far more hurt. Hmm, Europe to place sanctions on Russia, Russia has an easy reply.

That's correct Pero.....which if they tried the Sanctions. It hurts the EU and not just Russia. Which then the EU wont want to pay all those Royalties that Putin will surely place into effect.


Russia sets Ukraine agenda with diplomacy, threats

Hague said "the world cannot just allow this to happen." But he, like other Western diplomats, ruled out any military action. "The U.K is not discussing military options. Our concentration is on diplomatic and economic pressure."
Market reaction to the Russian seizure of Crimea was furious Monday. In European trading, gold and oil rose while the euro and stock markets fell. The greatest impact was felt in Moscow, where the main RTS index was down 12 percent at 1,115 and the dollar spiked to an all-time high of 37 rubles.

Russia's central bank hiked its main interest rate 1.5 percentage points Monday to 7 percent, trying to stem financial outflows.

Gazprom, the Russian energy giant, was also big loser, its share price down 13 percent as investors worried about how it would get its gas to Europe if hostilities kept up, since much of it goes through Ukrainian pipelines.....snip~

Russia sets Ukraine agenda with diplomacy, threats - NewsTimes
 
Europe now has all those Russian oil and gas pipelines delivering Russian oil and gas. If Russia does get peeved at Europe, guess what they will do. OOPs, no more oil and gas although that would put a crimp in their Ruble, Europe would be far more hurt. Hmm, Europe to place sanctions on Russia, Russia has an easy reply.

Russia can't afford to cut into their profits.
 
Divide and conquer, huh?
I don't get this - both Russia (especially Russia) and the U.S. have vast territories and they are greedy for more?

What territories are the Americans greedy for?
 
I encourage Russia to take your advice.
Once you lose a customer, it's tough getting them back.
And, how's he gonna pay for Sochi?
And he's now probably lost the G-8 summit in Sochi.
When the IMF cuts off funds, we'll see how bellicose Putin is .

Russia does not need the IMF, Ukraine does. Russia was offering Ukraine money instead of them having to go to the IMF for a loan
 
In a global poll, the US is seen as the biggest threat to world peace, so this may be seen as a good development.

These would be quite uneducated people and, sadly, the world is full of them.
 
Back
Top Bottom