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Kerry condemns Russia's 'incredible act of aggression' in Ukraine

clownboy said:
I'm not going to talk up Russia or their actions here. It's not a system I would want to live with, nor do I particularly like Putin at all. But he is a very strong politician, much in the mold of our greatest presidents.

As to the Ukraine issue, it's a tricky question and I'm not familiar enough with what locals think as to ownership and country. Heck, wasn't too long ago the US went down to Panama and ousted the government there because we had "interests".
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And it's been defended. In the case of Ukraine, civilians, and not all because the country is split pretty much down the middle, ousted the government and seized control. No government that could repel such action would hesitate too, including the US. Russia has physical tangible assets in the Ukraine that require securing.
 
joG said:
I am not quite clear, what you want to say. The USA was okay with the Europeans handling the security in their area. They wanted them to. So the treaty that lead to the present situation was a European thing. It was not the Americans.
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What treaty? The proposed closer link to the EU? Of course it was an European aka EU thing. The US had nothing to do with it, nor should it. The Ukrainians, some at least, wanted closer ties to the EU. They reached out, and a deal was made over years.. many years. Then the Ukrainians, well some of them, decided no and the rest of the country rebelled.. that is the situation.

And the other stuff might be interesting in another context.
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It is in the context. People keep saying that Russia has the EU by the balls... they dont, it is actually the other way around and we can see it already in the markets.

So again: Did the EU understand, what it was doing or not?
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As in negotiate with a sovereign nation over trade? Of course.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Our expeirance In Iraq.
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Ok, but we won in Iraq.

Would you care to explain your POV, using technical and tactical information? Or, are you going to insist on forming an opinion from an uninformed position?
 
Montecresto said:
No! If they occupy the place for a decade, kill a couple hundred thousand civilians, waste a trillion dollars of their treasure, get several thousand of their soldiers killed, and then leave the place in ruin. Only a war hawk would call that winning.
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Hell by that logic, we lost WW2, as well. We've occupied Japan for 70 years, killed millions of civilians and spent well over a trillion dollars.


Do you people just say this kind of stuff to yank peoples's chains, or do you really believe what you're saying?
 
apdst said:
The Russians murdered 40 million people in the 20th Century. Something basically wrong with that.
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I meant modern Russia.
 
Montecresto said:
I thought we were talking about your dissatisfaction with Obama on the Ukraine?
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Failure to so much as show up at your security council meeting on the Ukraine IS about the Ukraine.Making threatening comments IS about the Ukraine. Consistently foolish and amateur political responses across the board IS about Ukraine. Banging the drums of revolution in Egypt, Libya, and other countries while then ignoring the 'cause' in allied states like SA and Bahrain IS about Ukraine.
 
PeteEU said:
What treaty? The proposed closer link to the EU? Of course it was an European aka EU thing. The US had nothing to do with it, nor should it. The Ukrainians, some at least, wanted closer ties to the EU. They reached out, and a deal was made over years.. many years. Then the Ukrainians, well some of them, decided no and the rest of the country rebelled.. that is the situation.



It is in the context. People keep saying that Russia has the EU by the balls... they dont, it is actually the other way around and we can see it already in the markets.



As in negotiate with a sovereign nation over trade? Of course.
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Typical. Messing around, you mean, without a clue to damage they could cause nor a second thought. And when the damage is done and the guys that trusted them are hurting, it was not their fault, but those that got hurt. Remember Greece or the German unemployed after joining the euro? Same shameless behavior.
And now you think it was the Ukrainians, the Americans, the Russian has lost his grip on reality the German chancellor says? Anyone is at fault but the Eurocrats? Sure.
 
VanceMack said:
Failure to so much as show up at your security council meeting on the Ukraine IS about the Ukraine.
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We've heard this exact line from you in past days.
It still has ZERO meaning.

Me, I would start an economic 'blockade' toot sweet.
 
NIMBY said:
We've heard this exact line from you in past days.
It still has ZERO meaning.

Me, I would start an economic 'blockade' toot sweet.
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Frankly, I believe 'you' would do a better job than him...and I mean that sincerely.
 
joko104 said:
None of that is the issue whatsoever.

The issue is that the Ukraine government gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for a vow that we would protect the integrity of their borders. It turns out that was a chump move in which Russia, the USA and Britain tricked the Ukraine government into vulnerability to invasion and conquest - which has now happened.

There is no possible disarmament or non-nuclear proliferation agreement to be reached with any country in the future as it has been proven it is just a trick to try to convince the leader and country to voluntarily expose themselves to invasion. Why would any country make an agreement to not develop and keep nuclear weapons knowing such an agreement is worthless?

That is the issue, not the Crimea. Care to argue with that?
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I don't have a crystal ball but I'll bet that Russia won't be leaving the Crimean peninsula or any other majority-Russian part of the Ukraine anytime soon.
 
VanceMack said:
Failure to so much as show up at your security council meeting on the Ukraine IS about the Ukraine.Making threatening comments IS about the Ukraine. Consistently foolish and amateur political responses across the board IS about Ukraine. Banging the drums of revolution in Egypt, Libya, and other countries while then ignoring the 'cause' in allied states like SA and Bahrain IS about Ukraine.
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Yes, agreed, but in you're post that I quoted, you were talking about Syria. I'm no defender of Obama's foreign policy, I just don't think there was anything he could do overtly in Syria, nor do I think there is anything he could or should do in Ukraine. And I'm definitely not interested in getting into a military confrontation with Russia. And I totally agree with you about Obama's hypocrisy regarding SA and Bahrain.
 
clownboy said:
Solely because we wish we had a POTUS with stones like his, instead of the craisins ours sports.
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No, what's really happening is that you guys know full well that there's no good outcome to US military action here. You know full well that the best course (well, only course really) the US can take is to issue disapproving diplomatic statements, get fellow NATO members to do the same, and put forward economic sanctions. Which is exactly what's happening.

You know all of this, but Obama is doing it so you have to find a way to be mad about it. So you've invented a fantasy where someone who looks tougher could totally just have talked Russia out of securing a major strategic asset.
 
shrubnose said:
I don't have a crystal ball but I'll bet that Russia won't be leaving the Crimean peninsula or any other majority-Russian part of the Ukraine anytime soon.
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Do you mean to say they won't be bringing their military back home?
 
apdst said:
Ok, but we won in Iraq.

Would you care to explain your POV, using technical and tactical information? Or, are you going to insist on forming an opinion from an uninformed position?
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We could not win againist the insurgents in Iraq, because we could not win over the support of the population.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
We could not win againist the insurgents in Iraq, because we could not win over the support of the population.
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We neutralized the insurgents. We didn't win the support of the population in Japan and Germany, either.
 
Yeah, they seem real neutral these days.
 
joG said:
Typical. Messing around, you mean, without a clue to damage they could cause nor a second thought. And when the damage is done and the guys that trusted them are hurting, it was not their fault, but those that got hurt. Remember Greece or the German unemployed after joining the euro? Same shameless behavior.
And now you think it was the Ukrainians, the Americans, the Russian has lost his grip on reality the German chancellor says? Anyone is at fault but the Eurocrats? Sure.
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Eh? Are you paranoid much? How the hell is it the EUs fault for the political instability in Ukraine? Are you seriously saying that the EU, as an organisation, is responsible for the political divide between the western part of Ukraine and the eastern part? That they are at fault for the Ukrainian politicians on both sides for being utterly corrupt? Are you saying that it is the fault of the EU that the now former President seems to have disappeared with billions? What is next.. you gonna blame the EU for you not waking up because your alarm clock is busted?
 
Strangle the 'beast' where it hurts most, early and often.
I was especially upset at House Intelligence Chair Rogers for taking the Navy off the table yesterday.
In response to Rogers and Putin, I would block the Black Sea entrance to the Mediterranean, first at Istanbul, then at the entrance to the Aegean .
VanceMack said:
Frankly, I believe 'you' would do a better job than him...and I mean that sincerely.
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Sure seems a lot of people willing to risk war with Russia to defend the interests of only half of Ukrainians and against the interests of the rest. Classic definition of the pro-war crowd.
 
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