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Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

I don't believe the EU will do much of anything, with the exception of the eastern european countries formerly part of the Soviet block.

I think the EU will do a great deal economically. There are significant Russian minorities in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldovia, Kazakhstan etc, as well as a very significant number of russified Belarusans.

Though it is doubtful that Putin intends to strong arm these nations, the EU might think it better to keep the Ossetia, then Abkazia, then Crimea, then... ? pattern from going any further- especially if this can be done with out military force against a Russian economy with some inherent weaknesses.

Also, a weak economic response on Crimea might embolden Putin to press for eastern Ukraine, or a full union treaty with Ukraine. This could start a major war and have more economic losses for the EU than sanctions.
 
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I think the EU will do a great deal economically. There are significant Russian minorities in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldovia, Kazakhstan etc, as well as a very significant number of russified Belarusans.

We'll see. If the EU does, I think it will be longer term. Might be a mild winter there, but it's still winter.

Though it is doubtful that Putin intends to strong arm these nations, the EU might think it better to keep the Ossetia, then Abkazia, then Crimea, then... ? pattern from going any further- especially if this can be done with out military force against a Russian economy with some inherent weaknesses.

Putin would strong arm those nations if he could. He can't. If the market for Russian energy shrinks a bit, so shrinks Russian power.

Also, a weak economic response on Crimea might embolden Putin to press for eastern Ukraine, or a full union treaty with Ukraine. This could start a major war and have more economic losses for the EU than sanctions.

I agree that an economic response is the most effective, but it must be done in concert, and it must have an accompanying increase in military defense posture in order to be credible. Putin no doubt has his eyes on the whole of Ukraine, when and if the opportunity arises. Russia's military conducted games to the north of Ukraine as well as the publicized activities of their forces in the Crimean region. Ukraine forces already hopeless outmatched on their east would also have to confront Russian military to their north all the way to the Polish border. In short, had Putin dared to risk it, all of Ukraine was there for Russia's taking. That was a demonstration offered for the benefit of Ukrainian leadership in Kiev.
 
No one will do anything, this is not 1950.
 
We'll see. If the EU does, I think it will be longer term. Might be a mild winter there, but it's still winter.

Putin would strong arm those nations if he could. He can't. If the market for Russian energy shrinks a bit, so shrinks Russian power.

I agree that an economic response is the most effective, but it must be done in concert, and it must have an accompanying increase in military defense posture in order to be credible. Putin no doubt has his eyes on the whole of Ukraine, when and if the opportunity arises. Russia's military conducted games to the north of Ukraine as well as the publicized activities of their forces in the Crimean region. Ukraine forces already hopeless outmatched on their east would also have to confront Russian military to their north all the way to the Polish border. In short, had Putin dared to risk it, all of Ukraine was there for Russia's taking. That was a demonstration offered for the benefit of Ukrainian leadership in Kiev.

Now Putin is claiming that the unmarked militia in Crimea are simply local peace keepers. This is pretty much what I was predicting Putin's play to be all along. It's a win win for him. If the world simply lets him annex Crimea under this pretense then he gets Crimea. If Ukrainian forces try and push the occupation back he can claim that the new Ukrainian government is oppressing peaceful Ukrainian citizens and use that as the springboard into larger military action.

Seems increasingly clear that were it not for the Sochi Olympics Russian tanks would have been in Kiev weeks ago.

Also, economic sanctions won't work so well in this situation since half of Europe runs off of Russian oil and gas that runs through pipelines in the Ukraine. Any sanctions of Russian exports and imports would only begin to strangle Europe.

The best economic response would be to begin work on US oil and gas production and start supplying the EU. Russia's biggest bargaining chip is that energy suppl, we should be working to take that away.
 
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I agree that an economic response is the most effective, but it must be done in concert, and it must have an accompanying increase in military defense posture in order to be credible.
That is also going to take time. Since neither the US, nor NATO is committed to sending soldiers, the credible deterance must come from Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia etc. .

Western weapons manufacturers have priced themselves out of the market. The Baltic nations are too small to be able to afford significant, or even moderate amounts of pricey western eqipment. Ukraine, once they get their economy fixed, probably could afford a significant amount, but that is years away.

Ironically, the weapons that have the best value (cost to performance), and when in the hands of well trained soldiers, could be a credible deterrance against Russian strong arming, are all made in Russia.
Now Putin is claiming that the unmarked militia in Crimea are simply local peace keepers. This is pretty much what I was predicting Putin's play to be all along. It's a win win for him. If the world simply lets him annex Crimea under this pretense then he gets Crimea. If Ukrainian forces try and push the occupation back he can claim that the new Ukrainian government is oppressing peaceful Ukrainian citizens and use that as the springboard into larger military action.
Good point.

Putin is a rare combination of physical strength, high personal confidence and alot of brains. I bet he plays both chess and poker, and plays them very well. I would not want to play against him for high stakes.
Also, economic sanctions won't work so well in this situation since half of Europe runs off of Russian oil and gas that runs through pipelines in the Ukraine. Any sanctions of Russian exports and imports would only begin to strangle Europe.
I disagree. The Russians could have cut Ukraine off weeks ago, but they did not. My guess is that they need every gas sale to be made on time to keep their own economy floating. They are not in the same position as the arab nations were when they did their large scale embargo.
 
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Now Putin is claiming that the unmarked militia in Crimea are simply local peace keepers. This is pretty much what I was predicting Putin's play to be all along. It's a win win for him. If the world simply lets him annex Crimea under this pretense then he gets Crimea. If Ukrainian forces try and push the occupation back he can claim that the new Ukrainian government is oppressing peaceful Ukrainian citizens and use that as the springboard into larger military action.

Sounds like the seized Ukrainian forces had better behave themselves then, and all will end well.
 
Russia previously used other means, such as economic warfare, to keep Ukraine in line. Why would it abandon less risky tactics for military ocupation?

Because it can - because it no longer has to depend on weaker forms of control due to the crumbling of the the ability and willingness of other nations to oppose it. Power is often a zero sum game - as the West has weakened, Russia has grown relatively stronger.

As for "risky" - there is nothing "risky" about this. I don't think I've even heard of Russia (as of yet) losing a single soldier, sailor, or airman. What is the international community going to do? At most some harsh rhetoric with some mild economic sanctions, which they will quickly walk back before Putin starts playing with the lights in Eastern Europe.

What is Putin Risking, here?
 
Sounds like the seized Ukrainian forces had better behave themselves then, and all will end well.

Ever to the defense of the oppressor, I see.
 
Seems increasingly clear that were it not for the Sochi Olympics Russian tanks would have been in Kiev weeks ago.
I don't think he will do that unless the Ukrainian government starts attacking his forces. He is in Crimea at their request. I think that's where his interests ends, to maintain good relations with that region. Maybe his end game is to absorb them, but... who knows...

Putin's a master at strategy, and Kerry, Obama, etc. are showing themselves to be the fools we all knew they were.
 
I don't think he will do that unless the Ukrainian government starts attacking his forces. He is in Crimea at their request. I think that's where his interests ends, to maintain good relations with that region. Maybe his end game is to absorb them, but... who knows...

Putin's a master at strategy, and Kerry, Obama, etc. are showing themselves to be the fools we all knew they were.

That is a lot to ask Ukraine to accept. How would Putin respond if trucks of armed gunmen drove in to Smolensk and blockaded the government buildings in the name of "peace"? If a firefight breaks out it is entirely Putin's fault and the Ukrainian government would be entirely justified.
 
That is also going to take time. Since neither the US, nor NATO is committed to sending soldiers, the credible deterance must come from Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia etc. .

Western weapons manufacturers have priced themselves out of the market. The Baltic nations are too small to be able to afford significant, or even moderate amounts of pricey western eqipment. Ukraine, once they get their economy fixed, probably could afford a significant amount, but that is years away.

Ironically, the weapons that have the best value (cost to performance), and when in the hands of well trained soldiers, could be a credible deterrance against Russian strong arming, are all made in Russia.

I agree that time is required. This situation didn't develop overnight, and it won't be fixed overnight, either. There are serious questions about the EU's commitment to such an effort as the past indicates, and we bear some responsibility in that we have enabled the very weakness we decry. The weapons situation you point out is all too true. Our reliance on high tech, high performance weaponry has been a hotly debated course within the defense community. Some of what we develop is done because we can, not necessarily because we should. Reliance on such technology and sophistication has it's downsides, as the purchase of Russian helicopters for the Afghan army demonstrated. Our helicopters would require inordinate training of the Afghans just so they could fly them. In truth, when a fellow is throwing rocks at you, you do not need a $2000 rifle to take him out.
 
I don't think he will do that unless the Ukrainian government starts attacking his forces. He is in Crimea at their request. I think that's where his interests ends, to maintain good relations with that region. Maybe his end game is to absorb them, but... who knows...

Putin's a master at strategy, and Kerry, Obama, etc. are showing themselves to be the fools we all knew they were.

How many times do we have to say "I told you so"? But this is what you get when it is amateur hour in the White House. You put in an inexperienced community organizer as the leader of the free world, well the free world will shrink. It was bad enough when he exploded our debt, but now with Russia and China on the move, he is continuing to gut our military. These moves by Putin and others go all the way back to the apology tour and the weakness of our American president. We can't fix this by sending our goof ball SOS to Kiev. We need to plan our strategy for years out into the future, and we need people capable of doing that. Sorry, but the "reset button" is not quite up to snuff.
 
Don't rescue them! Ukraine is already a waste land and most of their leaders are corrupt and useless cowards. The Russians haven't fired a single shot yet already half of Ukrainian navy and 30% air force staff have defected either to Russia or to the newly independent Crimea. The U.S. and the Western leaders are on the wrong side of history again.
 

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Don't rescue them! Ukraine is already a waste land and most of their leaders are corrupt and useless cowards. The Russians haven't fired a single shot yet already half of Ukrainian navy and 30% air force staff have defected either to Russia or to the newly independent Crimea. The U.S. and the Western leaders are on the wrong side of history again.

60% of Iraq capitulated before we crossed the boarder. The Russians have a superior military and fighting military vs military would surely mean the death of many Ukrainian soldiers. Sometimes retreating and fighting another day is the best course of action.

However, I agree we should not get involved.
 
How many times do we have to say "I told you so"? But this is what you get when it is amateur hour in the White House. You put in an inexperienced community organizer as the leader of the free world, well the free world will shrink. It was bad enough when he exploded our debt, but now with Russia and China on the move, he is continuing to gut our military. These moves by Putin and others go all the way back to the apology tour and the weakness of our American president. We can't fix this by sending our goof ball SOS to Kiev. We need to plan our strategy for years out into the future, and we need people capable of doing that. Sorry, but the "reset button" is not quite up to snuff.

When Failure Is Success | National Review Online

And yet many want to makke the situation even worse by electing another neophyte to take his place. Remember Hillary’s Russian ‘Reset’ Button? Guess Where She Got It | TheBlaze.com

The American people are electing celebrities when they should be electing leaders!
 
Great, another comparison to Hitler, Brzezinski has had one for Russia forever, and he's not speaking for Jimmy Carter now.

Why shouldn't there be a comparison to Hitler? Are we not supposed to learn from history, and Russian's history as well?
 
Why shouldn't there be a comparison to Hitler? Are we not supposed to learn from history, and Russian's history as well?

Because Putin moving to secure his assets on the peninsula, is not paramount to imperialism, and the comparisons are foolish, and unnecessary.
 
Because Putin moving to secure his assets on the peninsula, is not paramount to imperialism, and the comparisons are foolish, and unnecessary.

His 'assets' were part of the Ukraine. There are other ways of solving these problems rather than an invasion.

The important thing is what he does next.

And of course it is imperialism. Thats the history of the Russian empire.
 
His 'assets' were part of the Ukraine. There are other ways of solving these problems rather than an invasion.

The important thing is what he does next.

And of course it is imperialism. Thats the history of the Russian empire.

The Black Sea fleet and the rest of his belongings in his rented port belong to the Ukraine? This was not a US style invasion, and you know that its not, and your claims of imperialism and comparisons to Hitler are insane.
 
Hmm... I'm wondering how much the Snowden information influenced Putin's move.

Unfortunately, he is in a situation to have more access than anyone else. But, even aside from what Snowden might have, there were stories going back 10 years to when this Orange Revolution first started, that listed the American N.G.O.'s that were operating and trying to manipulate events on the ground, all under the cover of providing charity and aid. The same organizations...one unfortunately started by the same guy who's got Greenwald and Scahill on board now, has been active behind the pro-western movements in the Ukraine. It was recognized to be a divided nation right when it first became independent; so any moves to carve Ukraine away from Russia's influence and into the U.S. and possibly NATO alliance, would obviously be treated as a hostile move by Putin or any Russian president. I would bet that any Russian president...even the most compliant like Boris Yeltsin would have been moving troops from their base in Crimea to prevent a western government from taking over.
 
The Black Sea fleet and the rest of his belongings in his rented port belong to the Ukraine? This was not a US style invasion, and you know that its not, and your claims of imperialism and comparisons to Hitler are insane.

The Crimea belongs to the Ukraine. As you say, the port is "rented". Does the tenant have the right to overthrow the landlord?

It also doesn't matter if it is a "US style invasion" or a German style of invasion. It is an invasion.

You also need look up the word "imperialism" and German activities immediately prior to WWII.
 
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