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Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

PeteEU said:
This thread is so funny and devoid of facts and reality.

First of all there are already were tons of Russian troops in the Crimea.. it is called the Russian Black Sea Fleet and this is what it is all about. The Ukraine opposition has for almost a decade wanted its hands on this fleet and the port of Sevastopol. That is why the Russians are acting the way they are and putting troops into the Crimea to prevent that the new Ukrainian government trying to seize the base and fleet. Putin and Russia will do anything to defend this critical piece of their military... it is their only winter fleet base they have.

Secondly the Crimea was given to Ukraine during the Soviet period. It was never really part of historical Ukraine. The huge majority of people are Russians and want to be link to Russia. If you had a vote in the area even before the crisis, then they would vote by a massive margin to return to Russia.

Thirdly calling Obama weak is kinda funny when Bush allowed Putin to invade and occupy a country similar to this... was Bush weak too?

And finally what exactly can anyone do? Like it or not logistically any attempt to help the Ukrainians is bound to fail. Plus why should we care? The opposition aint exactly good either, and half the country hates the opposition. This is a mess that no one wants to get involved in, including the US with a right wing fanatic in the White House... no sane man would want that.

No the Ukrainian opposition needs to make a deal with Russia instead of acting like spoilt brats. That they had to be told by the Poles that they should sign the present deal or expect to die.. shows how little sense of reality they have. They have no military backing internally and half the country wants to cede... so come on.. wake the hell up. To save face they need to hold a referendum in Crimea and areas to the east and let the people vote for what country they want to be part off. It is the only way out.
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It's devoid of facts to claim that half the Ukraine wants to secede.
 
Jetboogieman said:
This is such a load of garbage.

Almost nobody supported unilateral action against Syria because the evidence was so flimsy.

Very few liberals on here supported any action based on the alleged gas attack.
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That evidence is not in question. It was a rocket never used by rebels fired from deep within Assad's premiere base. There is absolutely no chance that rebels infilatrated the base, set up and fired rockets, and escaped WITHOUT NOTICE. Further, the US claimed photo evidence of the chemicals being extracted from Assad's containment facility and transported to the base, with Assad officers on the scene, again WITHOUT A FIGHT.

Denying Assad gassed Damascus is like being a truther.
 
Ben K. said:
It's devoid of facts to claim that half the Ukraine wants to secede.
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Actually.. not according to the last presidential vote and based on the areas where Russian is the primary language.
 
NIMBY said:
Apache calls neo-cons former liberals who switched to the GOP side.

With faulty intelligence from the last administration.


One of those liberals supporting Obama's war drums in Syria you speak of is
GOP Rep. Tom Cotton from Arkansas, currently leading Sen. Pryor .
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You just proved my point.
 
PeteEU said:
Most countries have aspects that is a "civil war in the making".. even the US and UK.
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The US and UK have the potential but not, as many aspects, as the Ukraine with it's heavily Russian populated, eastern area of Crimea. The Ukraine has already overthrown it's current government in Kiev and is in dire financial straits. We don't have that criteria met quite yet in the US/UK.


Not really, there is no cross religious aspect in this and the winner is a given.. Russia.

It is easy to predict. Any country near Ukraine wont get involved because they dont want to piss off the Russians, and the US and western allies can shout at the moon as much as they want, but they have a massive logistics problem if they want aid any Ukrainian movement. The Russians control the Black Sea and the countries around the Ukraine wont allow transit.. so forget it.

Plus why do we care? Yes the Ukraine has the potential of being the breadbasket of the planet but other than that.. why do we care? Russia is going to do what they want, they have the money and willpower and unless you want a global war over this.. then there is not much we can do.

And lets not forget in most cases we have the choice between a Russian mafia puppet that is utterly corrupt or an Ukrainian dictator that might be more friendly towards the west, but will be just as corrupt. Remember the Orange revolution? Well they won, and the people who took over were later thrown in jail for... massive corruption... and now we have the same scenario.

We best keep out of this mess if you ask me.
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I agree with this 100%. It's a big loser all the way around for the West. All our meddling in the ME and Arab Spring has brought about is a royal mess.
 
Jetboogieman said:
This is such a load of garbage.

Almost nobody supported unilateral action against Syria because the evidence was so flimsy.

Very few liberals on here supported any action based on the alleged gas attack.
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It wasn't 'very few' (nor was it 'every' whichis why I said the "long line" of liberals)...and do you doubt for a second had Obama decide to actually act, that the vast majority would not fall in lock stip in support of his actions?

Because...if you doubt it we can have discussion of the liberals that were losing their mind over Bush's use of the Patriot Act and that are now either silent or supportive fo the continued expansive use of government surveillance.
 
I'm with PeteEU. There are no heroes in this episode, not the EU which pushed an ultimatum on Ukraine, not Russia for obvious reasons, not the former Ukrainian regime, not the extremist opposition. I don't see what the US has to gain from getting more involved beyond supplying humanitarian aid.

I think we've taken it for granted that with the end of the Cold War that was the end of Russia as a global power; I was certainly guilty of this. But history does not just end, and just looking at a map it is obvious why Russia would concern itself with events in the Ukraine. As it's been pointed out Crimea was part of Russia and was almost arbitrarily incorporated into Ukraine during the Soviet Union when Moscow had control over it anyway, and it remains a base of operations for the Russian military. Are we supposed to deny Russia any influence over a country with such strong ties to it?

Just as we would be incensed with Russia meddling with our neighbors, as it did during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Russia is justified to be weary of being encircled by unfriendly countries. This is not East Germany, this is Ukraine, right on its border. I for one don't see why, if the country is really so divided, it shouldn't be partitioned to let its East and West follow their own paths, but that should be up to the Ukrainians.

Just ask what we should hope to gain by meeting force with force? Does the US really care to have the Ukraine in its sphere of influence? If so, is it worth going toe to toe with a nuclear power? If we think there are any easy answers here we are wrong. It is best to err on the side of caution.
 
grip said:
The US and UK have the potential but not, as many aspects, as the Ukraine with it's heavily Russian populated, eastern area of Crimea. .
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It is more than that..

ukraine-language-5.jpg


That is the language issue...

And the last election

ukraine-2010-election.jpg


The blue areas are the areas voting for the guy that just got kicked out and the yellow areas are for the woman that just got released from jail.

The previous election in 2004..

Ukraine_ElectionsMap_Nov2004.png


Blue areas for the guy who just got kicked out I believe (pro Russian)..

See the pattern?
 
Ben K. said:
And the EU would use its gas reserves and freeze the oligarchs assets. It certainly would not be easy to take over Ukraine. And there are a few regions in Russia that would take the opportunity to cause trouble.
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You greatly underestimate the weakness of the EU.
 
VanceMack said:
You just proved my point.
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So you support GOP Conservatives who are running for the Senate,
such as Rep. Tom Cotton in Arkansas, who supported bombing Syria?

You do know that Cotton is a rising GOP star who served in the Military ?
 
PeteEU said:
It is more than that..

ukraine-language-5.jpg


That is the language issue...

And the last election

ukraine-2010-election.jpg


The blue areas are the areas voting for the guy that just got kicked out and the yellow areas are for the woman that just got released from jail.

The previous election in 2004..

Ukraine_ElectionsMap_Nov2004.png


Blue areas for the guy who just got kicked out I believe (pro Russian)..

See the pattern?
Click to expand...

Looks geographically, almost half and half to me? Unless, I'm missing something? And Russia will potentially, back the Blue and help them to bring the rest under their control.

I think this whole event for the West is a big Media event, not an immediate problem to be acted on. The only thing I worry about a little bit, is Obama saying something dumb, he feels obligated to back up. I was glad to see when he met with his primary advisers and heads of departments for strategy today.
 
NIMBY said:
So you support GOP Conservatives who are running for the Senate,
such as Rep. Tom Cotton in Arkansas, who supported bombing Syria?

You do know that Cotton is a rising GOP star who served in the Military ?
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You made three statements...all proving my point. 1, people use it as nothing more than a label, 2-Blame the other guys...ALWAYS blame the other guys, and 3 its ALWAYS the republican guy.

I didnt support military action against the Syrian government because there was and still is no evidence of who actually used chemical weapons (and because of the fact that people that the administration support have been known to both USE chemical weapons and been found with them in their possession). I thought it was stupid to make a 'red line' statement that you werent willing to enforce and that it was even more foolish to bang drums and literally take us to the brink of war, then suddenly vanish on the matter entirely.
 
grip said:
Looks geographically, almost half and half to me? Unless, I'm missing something? And Russia will potentially, back the Blue and help them to bring the rest under their control.

I think this whole event for the West is a big Media event, not an immediate problem to be acted on. The only thing I worry about a little bit, is Obama saying something dumb, he feels obligated to back up. I was glad to see when he met with his primary advisers and heads of departments for strategy today.
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It is half and half .. you said half of Crimea only :) hence my objection... that or I cant read (which is a possibility since it is Saturday evening)
 
PeteEU said:
It is half and half .. you said half of Crimea only :) hence my objection... that or I cant read (which is a possibility since it is Saturday evening)
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I looked back and didn't say "half of Crimea". No biggy. It's early afternoon here. :)
 
Then why did Assad give up his WMD?
Who may have influenced him? (Putin)
Who may have influenced Putin? (Obama)
When your policy is No Drama Obama, very few know what really was does in private negotiations .

VanceMack said:
You made three statements...all proving my point. 1, people use it as nothing more than a label, 2-Blame the other guys...ALWAYS blame the other guys, and 3 its ALWAYS the republican guy.

I didnt support military action against the Syrian government because there was and still is no evidence of who actually used chemical weapons (and because of the fact that people that the administration support have been known to both USE chemical weapons and been found with them in their possession). I thought it was stupid to make a 'red line' statement that you werent willing to enforce and that it was even more foolish to bang drums and literally take us to the brink of war, then suddenly vanish on the matter entirely.
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I can't believe the Soviets would ever give up Crimea to the Ukraine, even in 1954.
Especially with its strategic location.
I'm thinking of 'Gadsden's Purchase' as a justification for Russia to take a strip of Crimea.
If I were a current History teacher, this would be a learning moment this week with current affairs.
Along with the benefits of learning World Geography that most USA kids won't know .
grip said:
I looked back and didn't say "half of Crimea". No biggy. It's early afternoon here. :)
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Nice maps grip.
Sure looks like West Germany and East Germany .
grip said:
Looks geographically, almost half and half to me? Unless, I'm missing something? And Russia will potentially, back the Blue and help them to bring the rest under their control.

I think this whole event for the West is a big Media event, not an immediate problem to be acted on. The only thing I worry about a little bit, is Obama saying something dumb, he feels obligated to back up. I was glad to see when he met with his primary advisers and heads of departments for strategy today.
Click to expand...
 
NIMBY said:
Then why did Assad give up his WMD?
Who may have influenced him? (Putin)
Who may have influenced Putin? (Obama)
When your policy is No Drama Obama, very few know what really was does in private negotiations .
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WHat makes you think Assad has actually given up ANYTHING? And no...Obama didnt influence Putin...Putin seized on Obamas stupidity and punked him. When a politician makes PUTIN look like a statesman, you can rest assured...that politician is a ****head.

Again...all three of your 'responses' proved my point. And now, in every way...you CONTINUE to prove it.
 
I'll have to go back and note that.
He's been on his game today as have many other concerned Europeans on our board.
I'm listening to talk of boycotting the G-8 in Russia in June, as with what Russia did in Georgia.
That would be petty, but the USA did have a terrorist attack from Georgia residents.
grip said:
LOL,, those maps were put up by PeteEU from my quotes.
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I love these types of maps, with political science broken down categorically and using math.
My first thought was West and East Germany.
If I were a History teacher this week, this would be an ongoing current affairs topic.
And learning World Geography would be an intended consequence .
PeteEU said:
It is more than that..

ukraine-language-5.jpg


That is the language issue...

And the last election

ukraine-2010-election.jpg


The blue areas are the areas voting for the guy that just got kicked out and the yellow areas are for the woman that just got released from jail.

The previous election in 2004..

Ukraine_ElectionsMap_Nov2004.png


Blue areas for the guy who just got kicked out I believe (pro Russian)..

See the pattern?
Click to expand...
 
NIMBY said:
I'll have to go back and note that.
He's been on his game today as have many other concerned Europeans on our board.
I'm listening to talk of boycotting the G-8 in Russia in June, as with what Russia did in Georgia.
That would be petty, but the USA did have a terrorist attack from Georgia residents.
Click to expand...

The problem with Russia invading is that they'll have to possibly, fight the Ukrainian military. Not that it will be a match, but it would put added pressure on the West to react if it were an extended blood bath. Personally, I don't like this kind of event because of the potential to spiral, quickly.
 
austrianecon said:
Yes, help the Ukraine. US is a signatory of that. Question is what faction leader is the true leader of the Ukraine right now. And Ukraine is part of many NATO programs. Ukraine provides peace keepers for NATO lead operations, see Iraq and Afghanistan. Ukrainian military is educated in the structures of NATO militaries and have been for the last 4 years taking part in joint exercises. NATO hasn't offered full membership (that unbreakable guarantee) but NATO still has the offer on the table for Ukraine to join. Ukraine's former leadership refused to join NATO a few years back due to his Russian ties.
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Oh, no question. The situation is submerged in the fog of war. But it was predictable and the fog isn't that heavy. Remember Georgia? That should have been a warning. But Putin played his hand well and the EU prepared the way to cessation. Too bad.
 
Ben K. said:
Ukraine pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of 'invasion' - Telegraph

Paramilitary proxy warfare or will this continue to escalate?[/FONT]
[/FONT][/COLOR]
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Perhaps the Ukrainians can make the claim they are Moooslems and that they need an "Arab" Spring. Our boy president will get a hardon and send far more people to help the Islamist Ukrainians then he sent to help Ambassador Stevens and Obama's Four Murdered Americans in Benghazi.
 
Misterveritis said:
Perhaps the Ukrainians can make the claim they are Moooslems and that they need an "Arab" Spring. Our boy president will get a hardon and send far more people to help the Islamist Ukrainians then he sent to help Ambassador Stevens and Obama's Four Murdered Americans in Benghazi.
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Oh come on now... you know that Benghazi mess was all made up by Fox news! ;)
 
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