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Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Higgins86 said:
Europe and America came together for the Bosnian war don't forget that
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Well, if you want to be very, very kindly towards the Europeans, you could say that. But it was Genscher that had stoked the cessationary flames that the Great Peace Maker EU could not control. The Europeans then cried and pushed, till the US succumbed and acted.
 
PoS said:
I have a felling the UK wont do anything without US involvement. Now its crunch time for Obama.
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Obama will lead from his behind once again. In fact, his speech was a leading from his behind moment.

Obama will screw over the Ukrainians just as he had the Polish.

After all... he told Medvedev that after the election he's have more flexibility... which means Obama would bend over, spread his cheeks and say... Welcome Komrade!

Funny... Sarah Palin called this years ago. Weakness invites aggression.

In 2008, when she was the GOP vice presidential nominee, Palin questioned in a speech whether then-Sen. Barack Obama would have the foreign policy credentials to handle a scenario in which Russian President Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/28/palin-on-ukraine-i-told-you-so/
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You Go Barry!! You have ZERO credibility, and no one is going to take you seriously. Just shut up and go play golf.
 
Higgins86 said:
25 Nato members in Europe which would give Russia plenty to think about.
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Dude, we are talking about Russia. Not Iraq or Afghanistan.
The EU wasn't united for Syria case. I doubt they will be for Russia so easy.
Beside of that, the EU doesn't have perfect relationships with themselves, nor with US as well.
 
PoS said:
Incidents like this is exactly the reason why Iran wants and needs nukes, I bet the Ukrainians are kicking themselves now for giving up their nukes.
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Maybe they didn't.
 
zimmer said:
Obama will lead from his behind once again. In fact, his speech was a leading from his behind moment.

Obama will screw over the Ukrainians just as he had the Polish.

After all... he told Medvedev that after the election he's have more flexibility... which means Obama would bend over, spread his cheeks and say... Welcome Komrade!

Funny... Sarah Palin called this years ago. Weakness invites aggression.
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Obama can call for all the 'red lines' he wants as he tries desperately to see how many degrees of separation he can achieve.
 
Higgins86 said:
Treaty or not treaty the EU shoudl be taking the lead on this considering its the EU that Ukraine wants to remain with! Time for Merkel and company to validate this union of theirs.
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And do what exactly? Commit troops in response to Russian aggression?

You're dreaming.

It's too bad for Ukraine. If it falls, it does. That's that. We'll all 'condemn' Russia and say lots of tough guy things. But there'll be no 'response' that doesn't begin and end with hot air and chests puffed out. We can't do ****. Nobody can. They should never have scrapped their nukes. Bye, Ukraine. Nice knowing ya.
 
RiverDad said:
Governor Palin, you were right and the liberals were wrong. Please come and save us from Obama:

After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next.​
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I agree, she nailed it way back then.

China and North Korea are probably licking their chops also.
 
PoS said:
I agree with you, EU should take the lead and I feel the US should stay out of it since personally I am politically an advocate for non-interventionism but however we did sign that treaty with them so you know... :doh
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Right, we signed a treaty that WE would respect their borders, and I don't think that WE are disrespecting their borders. So no broken treaty.
 
Coin said:
Dude, we are talking about Russia. Not Iraq or Afghanistan.
The EU wasn't united for Syria case. I doubt they will be for Russia so easy.
Beside of that, the EU doesn't have perfect relationships with themselves, nor with US as well.
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People do seem to forget all too easily. And, no, the Russians are not Iraq or Afghanistan. If anyone thinks they were a challenge, wait until they even pretend to make a military move against the Russians and see what happens. Fortunately, the top knows that, and will only rattle sabers and sell Ukraine down the river as a gambit at least worth making to shake up the Russians a bit in their own sphere of interest.
 
Montecresto said:
Right, we signed a treaty that WE would respect their borders, and I don't think that WE are disrespecting their borders. So no broken treaty.
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Well we might be respecting their borders but Russia, the other country that signed this treaty, seems to have violated it, now the question is what we will WE do about it since we have pledged to respect Ukraine's sovereignty.
 
Annnd its on like Donkey Kong

Russian upper house approves use of force in Ukraine - CNN.com

Russia's upper house of parliament voted unanimously Saturday to approve sending Russian military forces into Ukraine, amid mounting tensions in the country's Crimea region.

The vote followed a request from Russian President Vladimir Putin for approval to send Russian troops into Crimea to normalize the political situation there.

Due to the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine," Putin said, there are threats to the lives of Russian citizens and Russian military personnel based in the southern Crimean region.
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PoS said:
Well we might be respecting their borders but Russia, the other country that signed this treaty, seems to have violated it, now the question is what we will WE do about it since we have pledged to respect Ukraine's sovereignty.
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You'd have to be pretty naive to think any nation, to include the USofA would have massive military installations on foreign soil without additional 'treaties' for safeguarding those installations. If there is a self defense 'treaty' for the Russian facilities then unless tanks roll across the Russian/ Ukrainian border and 17 divisions pour across, like in Hungary 1956, I'd say it isn't an invasion.

The term 'respect' doesn't mean 'defend'. Does the 'treaty' say we will intervene with force if any other nation invades the Ukraine or does it mean we acknowledge the Ukraine as a separate nation?

Now someone please name the treaty... I can't find one. I have found a Budapest Memorandum of 1994, but can't find the word treaty. the 1994 document doesn't say anyone must use force to maintain a Ukraine. I'm at a lost to figure out where the demand we 'do something' is coming from- just seems another CON attempt to put the President in a bad light for domestic political gain rather than a strong front to the rest of the world.

Just a bit pathetic, but predictable...
 
notquiteright said:
You'd have to be pretty naive to think any nation, to include the USofA would have massive military installations on foreign soil without additional 'treaties' for safeguarding those installations. If there is a self defense 'treaty' for the Russian facilities then unless tanks roll across the Russian/ Ukrainian border and 17 divisions pour across, like in Hungary 1956, I'd say it isn't an invasion.

The term 'respect' doesn't mean 'defend'. Does the 'treaty' say we will intervene with force if any other nation invades the Ukraine or does it mean we acknowledge the Ukraine as a separate nation?

Now someone please name the treaty... I can't find one. I have found a Budapest Memorandum of 1994, but can't find the word treaty. the 1994 document doesn't say anyone must use force to maintain a Ukraine. I'm at a lost to figure out where the demand we 'do something' is coming from- just seems another CON attempt to put the President in a bad light for domestic political gain rather than a strong front to the rest of the world.

Just a bit pathetic, but predictable...
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Im just playing devil's advocate here by inferring that we could lose international prestige/respect if we choose to do nothing while another country violates the same treaty we signed up for. Personally, Im a non-interventionist and I hope we stay out of it.
 
joG said:
The Budapest Memorandum, if that is the document you mean, says the signatories must help the Ukraine before the UN and the country is not member of Nato.
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Yes, help the Ukraine. US is a signatory of that. Question is what faction leader is the true leader of the Ukraine right now. And Ukraine is part of many NATO programs. Ukraine provides peace keepers for NATO lead operations, see Iraq and Afghanistan. Ukrainian military is educated in the structures of NATO militaries and have been for the last 4 years taking part in joint exercises. NATO hasn't offered full membership (that unbreakable guarantee) but NATO still has the offer on the table for Ukraine to join. Ukraine's former leadership refused to join NATO a few years back due to his Russian ties.
 
Higgins86 said:
Its a global market and their is plenty of pressure the EU can administer in regards to Russia's economy. Not a game anyone wants to play.
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It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
 
austrianecon said:
It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
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Very true.

There is, however, one additional fact: If Russia cuts the pipe lines, then the Russians dont make sales and their revenues plummet. I have a feeling that the only think keeping the Russian recovery going is gas and oil sales.

And.... the Russians are not like OPEC in their embargo. Most OPEC members had enormous cash reserves and small ethnically homogenous populations that got along with each other. The Russians probably dont have cash reserves and some of their natural gas comes from Islamic areas- whose non Russian locals may get upset if Moscow orders their source of revenue cut off.
 
Cryptic said:
Very true.

There is, however, one additional fact: If Russia cuts the pipe lines, then the Russians dont make sales and their revenues plummet. I have a feeling that the only think keeping the Russian recovery going is gas and oil sales.

And.... the Russians are not like OPEC in their embargo. Most OPEC members had enormous cash reserves and small ethnically homogenous populations that got along with each other. The Russians probably dont have cash reserves and some of their natural gas comes from Islamic areas- whose non Russian locals may get upset if Moscow orders their source of revenue cut off.
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But who does it hurt first? Not Russia. EU will blink first.
 
austrianecon said:
It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
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and Russia will sustain itself how?
 
austrianecon said:
It's not a global market for Europe. France, Germany and the rest get the large majority of their natural gas from Russia. Russia cuts the pipelines off.. you are **** out of luck. Prices will rise by 300% plus over night. A shaky EU economy goes from semi-stable to down right depression. Those are the facts.
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And where does Russia get its cash whilst going into a costly war with Ukraine?
 
austrianecon said:
But who does it hurt first? Not Russia. EU will blink first.
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I dont know....

If Russia was really confident, they would have turned the spigot off on Ukraine already. They have not done so yet. My guess is that the Russians really need every gas sale they make just to keep going.

But, the Russians also have an advantage. Putin is not only well, relentless in his pursuit of Russian interests, but is also highly intelligent. My bet is that though Russia would get hurt more than the EU in an embargo, none of their leaders and nobody in the Obama adminstration has the nerve and experience to call Putin's bluff and then out play him.
 
PoS said:
I have a felling the UK wont do anything without US involvement. Now its crunch time for Obama.
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Yeah. Remember this?

Obama tells Russia's Medvedev more flexibility after election




So, let's see. Russia has now completely outmaneuvered our Naif-King President in Poland, Iran, Syria, and Egypt.

Why in the world anyone would suspect that Obama is even capable of making an informed decision on how to effectively counter Putin here is beyond me. If he has that ability, he sure is hiding it well.
 
Obama should just keep quiet on the subject. Putin knows Obama won't lift one finger to help the Ukraine out. Warning Putin not to act only will embolden him, because nothing is more popular in Russia than thumbing their noses at the U.S. And Putin knows he has nothing to fear from our feckless leader. Making a stand against our countries enemies just isn't in his political makeup. Maybe he can go teach constitutional law to them until they all fall asleep.
 
cpwill said:
Why in the world anyone would suspect that Obama is even capable of making an informed decision on how to effectively counter Putin here is beyond me. If he has that ability, he sure is hiding it well.
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Why would Putin have given in to Obama and ordered ASSad to give up his chemical weapons?
Which side of the GOP am I talking to here, the war-mongers or the isolationists ?
 
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