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Ukraine accuses Russia of Occupation calls for help from US/UK

Crimea will not be part of Russia and Putin will leave voluntarily or be shunned as a nation. Don 't underestimate the damage that would do. I doubt his regime will survive it.

My guess is that Crimea will wind up as an independent entity under Russian protection. I could be wrong, but that seems to be the most likely course things will go.
 
So only in the case that a single man objects to an invasion, do you consider that invasion unjust? The question here is whether Ukraine's government ought to be in charge of their foreign policy. Illegal ouster or not, the answer is a definite yes. Your claim that "armed rebels" are now running the country is simply false.



Crimea very much is the Ukraine. Has been since the 50s.

If they're supporting the legitimate government with the approval of said government then their actions are just. Frankly I think that they're exercising an excess of restraint and that they should move into the whole of the Ukraine and restore the proper constitutional order.
 
If they're supporting the legitimate government with the approval of said government then their actions are just. Frankly I think that they're exercising an excess of restraint and that they should move into the whole of the Ukraine and restore the proper constitutional order.

A single president does not a "legitimate government" make.
 
A single president does not a "legitimate government" make.

He's the head of state. Is there anyone else more qualified to make military decisions on behalf of the Ukraine?
 
If they're supporting the legitimate government with the approval of said government then their actions are just. Frankly I think that they're exercising an excess of restraint and that they should move into the whole of the Ukraine and restore the proper constitutional order.

LOL And what about the pact Puitin signed to protect the sovereignty of the ENTIRE Ukraine? Can the Messiah just wave his hand and make that go away?
 
All democrats are frauds. But one must fool the people, right?


It does not matter. Only winning the Article stands any chance of fixing what is wrong with the nation.

Right All we need is more tax cuts for the rich and we will be on easy street. That's the plan...the only plan.
 
All democrats are frauds. But one must fool the people, right?

It does not matter. Only winning the Article stands any chance of fixing what is wrong with the nation.

It's impossible to be taken seriously with ridiculous statements like the one you just made.
 
LOL And what about the pact Puitin signed to protect the sovereignty of the ENTIRE Ukraine? Can the Messiah just wave his hand and make that go away?

What pact?
 
Which is why Putin ordered Assad to give up his WMD.

:lamo

Yeah? And how's that working out? :mrgreen: because last I checked Assad was already way behind schedule, Russia was putting precisely zero pressure on him to catch up, and his little minions in Geneva were already starting to balk at any more shipments.

And now you come back with Assad is not following through.

Well of course he's not following through. It's Assad. He's a slimy little lying dictatorial POS.

How would you feel if a GOP like Bush had this problem of not following through, since he would not have bombed Syria ?

Bush gave the Israelis the green light to bomb Syria, and may have even assisted, we won't know for years. But Bush generally either backed up his rhetoric (Iraq), or didn't engage in it (Georgia). Obama, he talk much, but all is smoke.

However, it's worth noting that back when Syria was George Bush's problem Democrat Party Leadership actively undercut him by courting Assad

Pelosi brings message of peace to Assad

DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi held talks with Syria's leader Wednesday despite White House objections, saying she pressed President Bashar Assad over his country's support for militant groups and passed him a peace message...

Rep. Tom Lantos, the head of the House Foreign Affairs Committee who was in Pelosi's delegation, said the meeting "reinforced sharply" the potential benefits of talking to Syria. "This is only the beginning of our constructive dialogue with Syria and we hope to build on this visit," he told reporters.

On Tuesday, President Bush denounced Pelosi's visit to Syria, saying it sends mixed signals to Assad's government. "Sending delegations doesn't work. It's simply been counterproductive," Bush said.

Washington says Syria is fueling Iraq's violence by allowing Sunni insurgents to operate from its territory. It also accuses it of backing terrorism because of its support for the Hezbollah and Hamas militant groups and of destabilizing the Lebanese government.

"We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace," Pelosi told reporters after her talks with Assad....

"These people in the United States who are opposing dialogue I tell them one thing: Dialogue is ... the only method to close the gap existing between two countries," Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem told reporters after the Assad-Pelosi meeting.

"Everyone knows there are different point of view between Syria and the United States," he said. "We are happy that Mrs. Pelosi and her delegation had the courage and determination to bridge these differences."...
 
Perhaps not tyrants, but much worse. Diabolical. For to lead astray one with promises of protection and prosperity, only that when they bite, and you don't deliver, you swiftly pull the rug out from under them, knowing you never planned to deliver in the first place. It was just part of one game to keep the competition a little restive and unstable. Thus, ensuring that your own state of affairs appears more delightful when compared to those in dire straits.

Did the EU promise either protection or prosperity? How are they in a position to offer either?
 
North Korea having nukes is a fairly recent development. The real reason there has been another Korean war initally was China and or the USSR getting in the mix, then the North created a fail safe. That fail safe is some 50k rocket and artillary tube emplacements poised to strike Seoul a city of 19 million. When I was deployed out in that part of the world I got to help in a war game planning. The estimates are between 50 and 65% casualty for the civilian population in the first 12 hours of a major conflict. That's with just conventional munitions. The very real possibility is that Chem Bio Radiological weapons will be used. The nukes nk has are large, unwieldy barely weaponized for show more than having a serious militaey valuem
Well with the Cold War there was a sense of stability in the fact that very few countries could be invaded without repercussions but in the post Cold War era, superpowers like the US, China or Russia have no status quo to maintain- the Gulf War proved to smaller nations that in order to stave off an invasion by a regional or world superpower one must posses nukes as a sort of failsafe. With North Korea now in possession of nukes as well as being in the same sphere as a friendly China, it is more or less safe from attack- the conventional artillery positions youve stated is a threat, but the nuke weapons the country posses acts more of a deterrent now since Seoul is 50 km away form the NK borders and their artillery has a range of about 40km.
 
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That is a sound assessment of the situation. There is a lot more involved here than asking and proclaiming who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? Regardless of what I might personally think of Putin and the Russians, I can not let any my feelings get in the way of what I know is really going on. Right now, I see the ball is really in the court of the more extremist elements in this most recent revolt in Ukraine, and their new government will have to come to terms with them before it need worry about the Russians. Instead of constantly chastising Putin, we need to pray that he works with Obama and is also able to contain the nationalist fervor within his own ranks. In all of the challenges of the last couple of decades, I see this one as being the match that lights the powder keg of a most horrible exchange, begun by miscalculation, should cooler heads not prevail.

There's an interesting bog on the subject of extremism in the Ukraine and it appears Democracy will win out as the Regionnaires regime crumbles. The other extremist groups are small minorities.
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If you think all extremists are equally odious, you have no choice but to view cooperation with the Regionnaires as as wrong as cooperation with the Communists or Svoboda. Unless, of course, you believe that extremists with power are less odious than extremists without power, in which case you won’t collaborate with Svoboda until they make it into office.

Fortunately, democrats may be able to sidestep these moral dilemmas—but only at this point in time—precisely because the Regionnaire regime is crumbling, while the Stalinists and Svoboda are likely to remain minority parties (or so I hope). The democrats don’t need any of them to regain power. If they want to win the trust of the people, they should position themselves as anti-extremists and don the mantle of tolerance, moderation, and inclusion—the opposites of xenophobia, radicalism, and anti-democracy—and make the case for an anti-extremist Ukraine in which people, and not thieves, thugs, chauvinists, and anti-Semites, will be served. After all, Ukrainians want to live normalno, and normality is anything but extremist.

Extremism in Ukraine | World Affairs Journal
 
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He's the head of state. Is there anyone else more qualified to make military decisions on behalf of the Ukraine?

Sure. How about someone actually in control of the military?
 
My guess is that Crimea will wind up as an independent entity under Russian protection. I could be wrong, but that seems to be the most likely course things will go.

I do not think this should be allowed to happen. Mind you, I oppose military action and I think this should be the EU's domain (as the Ukrainians revolted to integrate with them), but territorial integrity is an international concept that should be enforced. Russia should be guaranteed the stability and security of its naval bases in exchange for the departure of Russian troops, and Crimea should be granted significant autonomy and perhaps the right to integrate economically (but not politically) with Russia.
 
Well of course he's not following through. It's Assad. He's a slimy little lying dictatorial POS.
And Conservatives NEVER said this DURING the Syrian crisis, did they?
Just the opposite as Conservatives were high-fiving each other against Obama, giving aid and comfort to Putin/Assad.
Now you speak out of another side of your mouth .
 
How is a mass-murdering Head of State qualified to make any decisions on behalf of the Ukraine ?
He's the head of state. Is there anyone else more qualified to make military decisions on behalf of the Ukraine?
 
How is a mass-murdering Head of State qualified to make any decisions on behalf of the Ukraine ?

How is he a mass murderer? And what relevance does that have to the legality of the coup?
 
How is he a mass murderer?
Then you're good with him murdering scores of protestors.
Putin has a way of supporting these bad actors, like with WMD Assad .
 
And Conservatives NEVER said this DURING the Syrian crisis, did they?
Just the opposite as Conservatives were high-fiving each other against Obama, giving aid and comfort to Putin/Assad.
Now you speak out of another side of your mouth .

Oh, so it's the Conservatives's fault that the Syria plan is all cocked up? :lamo
 
Present Moment Awareness is not your friend .
Oh, so it's the Conservatives's fault that the Syria plan is all cocked up? :lamo
 
Why shouldn't we be on the side of freedom?

Of course we should be on the side of freedom; however, there has to be at least a discussion of what we're willing to do to secure Ukraine's freedom.
 
I am facebook friend with a member of the Red Elvises, who is Russian and posts in English to his American friends but also has conversations in Russian with his homeies. I read this translation this morning. I thought it was interesting, especially the part where it says the West is afraid of us.

Read Mitriča — ответы на незаданные вопросы - аншлюс "letter to the Patriots.
Want, I'll tell you what is not with Ukraine and with Russia?
First will be a beautiful TV picture.
There will be a column of armored vehicles. And women will throw flowers under the wheels. Will be a gala parade. From the crowd will run out the girl and the child will spend on armor. Each window is a Russian flag. An old woman with tears in her eyes will say smuŝennomu soldier-thank you, son. Will a solemn salute.

Do you think that the free Crimea from fascism? No. So fascism in Russia. Because this is only the beginning. Do you know what will happen next? Will continue to be broadcast on Central television about massacres of Ukrainian passport. About the anarchists. About Bandera. Paid satirists will be coming up with jokes about fat. About Khokhlov subtly joke Vanya Urgant and thick joke in the KVN. Malakhov will transfer about how humiliated Russians in Lviv. The newspapers will print letters simple combiners to fight back and to put in place. Ukrainian guest workers will start to kick out of Russia.

And then there will be a terrorist attack, we know by whom and on whose money. The ruble will collapse. On television to explain that this is the machinations of the West, which is afraid of us. On the streets there Cossack patrols. Will announce an additional appeal. Patriotically girls will spit in your face men of military age-how dare you at such a time to remain in the rear? The troops will begin daily prayers. Any criticism of the authorities would amount to a betrayal. Would begin rounding up dissidents. Will be rewritten history textbook. Show trials begin. Hyperinflation will begin. Of the stores will start to disappear.

I know that I now get to your address. I know that four of the five commentators will work on metodičkam. I did not remove any comments. This is important-to see how Russia comes fascism. " (Translated by Bing)
 
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