Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill[W:451:959]

Phil_Osophy · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Mustachio said:
Or, say... oh, I don't know... lynching? Sure, as long as Gene Hackman is still alive for your vision of a regressed America

Lynching is still a crime and a violation of human rights (the right to life).

RiverDad · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Mustachio said:
Business owners are subject to laws.

Aren't homosexuals also subject to laws when the laws say that there is no such thing as homosexual "marriage?"

Weren't homosexuals also subject to laws which made sodomy illegal?

Since when is "it's the law" a good rebuttal in a philosophic debate? Look, I'll grant you if homosexuals had followed your advice and desisted in their agenda to devalue marriage and to overturn sodomy laws, that is, if they obeyed the law without trying to change the law, then your argument would have some merit, but that reality never existed, so it's kind of ludicrous to sputter and exclaim "It's the law!"

You know that "Star-Trek nerd" is not a protected class.

Protected class is a political designation in a body of law created by erroneous reasoning on the part of courts. This doesn't give us much insight into issues which arise from natural rights.

joG · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
human should be the only protected class. And your rights should be protected. Someone elses property isnt a right

im not sure what you mean? You cant just "go find them"

Tell that to george washington.

I doubt he would have doubted the wisdom of it . After all he spent a lot of energy, treasure and men on turning the citizens' wishes into rights by enforcing them.

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

joG said:
I doubt he would have doubted the wisdom of it . After all he spent a lot of energy, treasure and men on turning the citizens' wishes into rights by enforcing them.

There is the ever so small matter that not all humans could be citizens with 'rights' in 18th Century America.

Oney Judge (c. 1773-1848) | George Washington's Mount Vernon

Oney "Ona" Judge Staines served as personal servant to Martha Washington until she escaped from the President's Mansion in Philadelphia and relocated to Portsmouth, New Hampshire in 1796. Much is known of Judge's life in comparison to Washington's other slaves, as a result of newspaper interviews she gave in 1845 and 1847, as well as George Washington’s frustrated attempts to recover her after she ran away.
<snip>
George Washington was offended by Judge's willingness to bargain with his aides, and concluded that her disloyalty and ingratitude in running away should not ever be condoned by giving in to such demands.

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

People can certainly choose to discriminate but they should understand that there can be consequences for supporting such discrimination.

Arizona passes bill allowing businesses to deny service to gay customers | fox4kc.com

In a letter to Brewer on Friday, the Greater Phoenix Economic Council urged the governor to veto Senate Bill 1062, saying the “legislation will likely have profound, negative effects on our business community for years to come.”

“The legislation places businesses currently in Arizona, as well as those looking to locate here, in potentially damaging risk of litigation, and costly, needless legal disputes,” council President Barry Broome wrote, adding that four unidentified companies have vowed to locate elsewhere if the legislation is signed.

He added, “With major events approaching in the coming year, including Super Bowl XLIX, Arizona will be the center of the world’s stage. This legislation has the potential of subjecting the Super Bowl, and major events surrounding it, to the threats of boycotts.”

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

People can certainly choose to discriminate but they should understand that there can be consequences for supporting such discrimination.

Arizona passes bill allowing businesses to deny service to gay customers | fox4kc.com

In a letter to Brewer on Friday, the Greater Phoenix Economic Council urged the governor to veto Senate Bill 1062, saying the “legislation will likely have profound, negative effects on our business community for years to come.”

“The legislation places businesses currently in Arizona, as well as those looking to locate here, in potentially damaging risk of litigation, and costly, needless legal disputes,” council President Barry Broome wrote, adding that four unidentified companies have vowed to locate elsewhere if the legislation is signed.

He added, “With major events approaching in the coming year, including Super Bowl XLIX, Arizona will be the center of the world’s stage. This legislation has the potential of subjecting the Super Bowl, and major events surrounding it, to the threats of boycotts.”

disneydude · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Thats another matter. The government shouldnt control peoples property

People should comply with the laws of this country. Society has every right to say that if you are going to do business in the United States you cannot discriminate against people

Phil_Osophy · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

disneydude said:
People should comply with the laws of this country. Society has every right to say that if you are going to do business in the United States you cannot discriminate against people

Lets say we were in the 1800s. Should we have followed the laws of not teaching blacks to reAd? Or will you admit that some laws are unjust?

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Lets say we were in the 1800s. Should we have followed the laws of not teaching blacks to reAd? Or will you admit that some laws are unjust?

As a "Libertarian" you think most laws are unjust - don't you? How is a society supposed to function when there are no rules?

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

eohrnberger said:
If the word marriage is now to include same sex couples, what's the point of any definition of what a marriage is at all?

There is already support for polygamous marriages coming, next it'll be someone will be wanting to marry a life sized doll, their neighbors dog, who the hell knows what's next? Now that the bounds have been removed. The flood gates have been opened, and the flood won't be held back any longer.

The concept of 'marriage' will become meaningless. It's already happened in Sweden, and all the social ills that come with that loss of meaning.

One of the founding pillars of a stable society will have been kicked out, and no longer able to lend support.

Granted, this is more of a philosophical perspective.

got to keep some definition is a contract after all just need reasons to ban certain kinds of marriage you having one spouse and your spouse having more then that doesn't seem fair

doll cant enter a contract so that's senseless (whether a human and an ai can get married will may be an interesting question some day )

dogs are not people so that's silly

basically letting people enter into marge when the in the same situation as hetero sexual couples we let marry doesn't mean you have to abandon all common sense

what happened in Sweden? and how's gay marriage harm any one else's marriage or ability to marry ?

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Victims? We aren't talking about commuting acts of violence. We are talking about providing or refusing service. You don't have a right to someone else's service, labor or property. If you insist that you do, then you are saying that person is your slave and must serve you.

And we are talking private business, not government.

yes your my slave if you have a business dedicated to exchanging a service for money with people

I don't even have to own you control your life and take all the wealth you generate but your totally my slave

look at these would be slavers and the brave noble souls defending a business owners freedom

Lunch+Counter+Sit-In,+Jackson+Mississippi,+1963.jpg

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Someone, somewhere, is willing to take their money in exchange for soap. Point nullified.

maybe not where they are or can get to

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

clownboy said:
It's free at the Y.

till they decide to turn people away to

Wiggen · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Lets say we were in the 1800s. Should we have followed the laws of not teaching blacks to reAd? Or will you admit that some laws are unjust?

Well, in your world I suspect that's a law (which was a southern creation, of course) that would have been enthusiastically obeyed.

As much fun as this has been, I think I'll leave you modern day Segregationists to each other.

eohrnberger · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

blarg said:
got to keep some definition is a contract after all just need reasons to ban certain kinds of marriage you having one spouse and your spouse having more then that doesn't seem fair

doll cant enter a contract so that's senseless (whether a human and an ai can get married will may be an interesting question some day )

dogs are not people so that's silly

basically letting people enter into marge when the in the same situation as hetero sexual couples we let marry doesn't mean you have to abandon all common sense

what happened in Sweden? and how's gay marriage harm any one else's marriage or ability to marry ?

Over all, in the EU Fewer marriages, more divorces, A rise in births outside marriage
Marriage and divorce statistics - Statistics Explained

Anecdotally:

The reason for the high divorce rate in Sweden is due to a something the Swedes call: Lagom … which is a general approach to life. It roughly translates to: average. Everything is lagom, Swedes don’t like to get stressed. If there are problems in a relationship, which is normal, Swedes give up easily. They don’t fight … they just take it lagom. Hence the high divorce rate.
. . . .
The third reason is that women don’t depend on men financially because govt takes care of them if they are divorced. Sweden is a 'Welfare State' and practices what is known as Institutional Welfare: An institutional system is one in which need is accepted as a normal part of social life. Welfare is provided for the population as a whole, in the same way as public services like roads or schools might be. In an institutional system, welfare is not just for the poor: it is for everyone.

Why does Sweden have the highest divorce rate in the world? - Yahoo Answers

De-stressing the entire thing, 'marriage-lite'?
USATODAY.com - Sweden's 'marriage lite' gets closer examination

Traditionalists see it as the end The End of Marriage in Scandinavia

Sweden has legalized same sex marriage since 2009.

Same-sex marriage in Sweden has been legal since 1 May 2009, following the adoption of a new, gender-neutral law on marriage by the Swedish parliament on 1 April 2009,[SUP][1][/SUP] making Sweden the seventh country in the world to open marriage to same-sex couples nationwide. Existing registered partnerships will remain in force, and can be converted to a marriage if the parties so desire, either through a written application or through a formal ceremony. New registered partnerships will no longer be able to be entered into and marriage will be the only legally recognized form of union for couples regardless of sex.
On 22 October 2009, the governing board of the Church of Sweden, voted 176–62[SUP][2][/SUP] in favour of allowing its priests to wed same-sex couples in new gender-neutral church ceremonies, including the use of the term marriage.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] Same-sex marriages have been performed by the church since 1 November 2009.[SUP][5][/SUP]

Same-sex marriage in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given the probably accurate assessment that the same thing is going happen here in the US, looks like the US locked on the same track, with no room, ability, or, in some people's minds, desire to strike a compromise somehow.

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Lutherf said:
I'm just blown away by some of the arguments made in this thread.

If I'm a vegetarian restaurant should I be required to provide meat products?
If I'm a Jewish deli should I be required to serve ham and cheese sandwiches?
If I'm a christian book store should I be required to sell the Koran?
If I'm a cigar store should I be required to provide a non-smoking section?
If I'm Abercrombie and Fitch should I be required to have a big and tall section?

At some point your desire for my services just might conflict with my religious beliefs and to use the law to compel me to provide those services is a direct violation of the 1st amendment. I'm sick and freaking tired of people trying to use the coercive force of government to chip away at my rights.

more like do you have to sell your food you sell to every one to people who eat meet

have to sell to gentiles

have to sell your products to Muslims

have to let non smokers buy your products if they so wish

have to sell your regular clothes to tall and or fat people if they want to buy it

not about changing services but denying your services

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

eohrnberger said:
Over all, in the EU Fewer marriages, more divorces, A rise in births outside marriage
Marriage and divorce statistics - Statistics Explained

Anecdotally:
Why does Sweden have the highest divorce rate in the world? - Yahoo Answers

De-stressing the entire thing, 'marriage-lite'?
USATODAY.com - Sweden's 'marriage lite' gets closer examination

Traditionalists see it as the end The End of Marriage in Scandinavia

Sweden has legalized same sex marriage since 2009.
Same-sex marriage in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given the probably accurate assessment that the same thing is going happen here in the US, looks like the US locked on the same track, with no room, ability, or, in some people's minds, desire to strike a compromise somehow.

1st lick seems to say that offering different kinds of contracts outside of marriage is a cause for its decline rather then gay marriage

blarg · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

eohrnberger said:
Over all, in the EU Fewer marriages, more divorces, A rise in births outside marriage
Marriage and divorce statistics - Statistics Explained

Anecdotally:
Why does Sweden have the highest divorce rate in the world? - Yahoo Answers

De-stressing the entire thing, 'marriage-lite'?
USATODAY.com - Sweden's 'marriage lite' gets closer examination

Traditionalists see it as the end The End of Marriage in Scandinavia

Sweden has legalized same sex marriage since 2009.
Same-sex marriage in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given the probably accurate assessment that the same thing is going happen here in the US, looks like the US locked on the same track, with no room, ability, or, in some people's minds, desire to strike a compromise somehow.

nope nothing that shows gay marriage is causing people to not get married

Phil_Osophy · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Somerville said:
As a "Libertarian" you think most laws are unjust - don't you? How is a society supposed to function when there are no rules?

Libertarians arent anarchists.
Libertarians simply believe in government being as limited as reasonable possible.

blarg said:
yes your my slave if you have a business dedicated to exchanging a service for money with people

I don't even have to own you control your life and take all the wealth you generate but your totally my slave

look at these would be slavers and the brave noble souls defending a business owners freedom

So if i decide to sell my property, you are automatically entitked to it and i have no say?

blarg said:
maybe not where they are or can get to

insisting that it is impossible to relocate? These silly arguments never cease. We all choose where we live. Besides, eventually a business will rise up in that area to meet any demand there is.

blarg said:
till they decide to turn people away to

You are insisting that every business will start turnig gays blacks and jews away. Its simply not true. Its a lame "slippery slope" strawman.

Wiggen said:
Well, in your world I suspect that's a law (which was a southern creation, of course) that would have been enthusiastically obeyed.

As much fun as this has been, I think I'll leave you modern day Segregationists to each other.

Believing that the government shouldnt control peoples labor and property makes one a segregationist?

Henrin · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

blarg said:
yes your my slave if you have a business dedicated to exchanging a service for money with people

I don't even have to own you control your life and take all the wealth you generate but your totally my slave

look at these would be slavers and the brave noble souls defending a business owners freedom

Did you notice how those people are trespassing? Everyone seems to enjoy overlooking that fact. Surely, they are getting assaulted by those people, but that doesn't somehow mean they are in the right either. Both parties in that picture are criminals.

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Also with less stress and societal pressures, couples splitting up in Sweden probably experience less domestic abuse.

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Henrin said:
Did you notice how those people are trespassing? Everyone seems to enjoy overlooking that fact.

TRESPASSING!!?? Oh, you mean the ones committing vandalism and damaging the store by spilling stuff. OK

Somerville · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Libertarians arent anarchists.
Libertarians simply believe in government being as limited as reasonable possible.

One problem "Libertarians" in present day America seem to have is defining "reasonable limitations"

Henrin · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Somerville said:
TRESPASSING!!?? Oh, you mean the ones committing vandalism and damaging the store by spilling stuff. OK

Yes, the people dumping stuff on them are criminals, but that doesn't make them somehow warranted to be on that property against the owners permission. Trespassing is a crime, and the individuals sitting down in that picture are guilty of it.

Wiggen · Feb 23, 2014

Re: Arizona lawmakers pass controversial anti-gay bill

Phil_Osophy said:
Libertarians arent anarchists.
Libertarians simply believe in government being as limited as reasonable possible.

So if i decide to sell my property, you are automatically entitked to it and i have no say?
insisting that it is impossible to relocate? These silly arguments never cease. We all choose where we live. Besides, eventually a business will rise up in that area to meet any demand there is.

You are insisting that every business will start turnig gays blacks and jews away. Its simply not true. Its a lame "slippery slope" strawman.

Believing that the government shouldnt control peoples labor and property makes one a segregationist?

No, what makes you a segregationist is your belief that separating people on the basis of what they are rather than who they are is perfectly acceptable. Even endorsed.