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Fears of more protest clashes high in Venezuela

j-mac said:
So tell me, in freeing the people from the yoke of the terrible mean ol USA and their influence, how much better off are they now? Yes, please do compare then to now....I'd love to see that.
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Your not better off when your dead! Let that sink in for a moment.
 
Montecresto said:
Killing people in the name of defending people makes no sense. Killing people is murder unless its foreign policy. Your the same guy to bitch the loudest when Hussein, Assad and Gaddafi do it and tight lipped when your own government does. You have company though, if that's any consolation.
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Your formulation show that you either have an overriding agenda or have never thought these things through. Or it is the combo.
 
PeteEU said:
True.

Now your turn

True or false.. would Chavez even have gained power if it was not for the US meddling in Central and South America and its links to the right in Venezuela?
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Possibly true. I wouldn't put it past the country to vote in someone with the charisma of Chavez; regardless of their level of anger at us. I rail on Chavez quite a bit, but he was a radical, not a violent extremist. So it's not the same situation as say it was in Iran.
 
"The reality is both very different and far more complex. Venezuela, after all, is a society that declared war on neoliberalism 15 years ago.

Caracas, where this series of events began, is a divided city. Its eastern part is middle class and prosperous; to the west, the population is poorer. The political divide reflects exactly the social division.

Leopoldo López, who has been a leader of this new phase of violent opposition to the government of Nicolás Maduro, was mayor of one of the eastern districts. Together with another prominent right-wing anti-chavista, María Corina Machado, he had issued a call for an open public meeting the previous Sunday to demand the fall of the government. Youth Day, on Wednesday, February 12, provided an opportunity to bring out students to march, demonstrate and occupy the streets.

The majority of the burning barricades, however, were built in middle-class areas. And the students building them came from either the private universities or the state university, which had largely excluded poorer students in recent times. There was almost nothing happening in the poorer areas to the west.

But in more recent days, the class character of the demonstrations has become clearer. The government's new bus system--offering clean and safe travel at low prices--has been attacked; 50 of these "Metro Buses" were torched in one day alone."

Behind the right-wing revolt in Venezuela | SocialistWorker.org
 
"This event—twenty-five years ago this week—was henceforth known as the Caracazo, and irreversibly divided Venezuelan history into a before and an after. Its importance is not limited to the resistance to imperialism that it embodied, however, but also the slaughter that marked its conclusion. Numbers often fail us in their false equivalence, but there is much that they can make clear: some 3,000 were killed in 1989, many deposited unceremoniously in unmarked mass graves. But the movements struggled forth, building popular assemblies in the barrios and making increasingly militant demands against a flailing state, which responded with targeted killings and the occasional massacre. The mayor of greater Caracas, Antonio Ledezma, who today positions himself as an opponent of repression, himself presided over the murder of dozens of students in the streets in the early 1990s, not to mention a notorious 1992 prison massacre at the Retén de Catia.

It was into this gaping wound in history that Chávez stepped, first with a failed coup in February 1992, and with electoral victory six years later. Even then, however, there were still no “Chavistas” but only “Bolivarians”—a loose and all-encompassing reference to the great liberator, Simón Bolívar—or more simply: “revolutionaries.” The revolution predated Chávez, and it was always about more than the individual; so too for Maduro today. The state has become today an important terrain for hegemonic struggle, but it is far from the only trench, and those who felt the searing heat of state violence in the past have not been today miraculously converted to naïve faith. Instead, the movements persist alongside and occasionally in tension with the government: supporting Maduro while building autonomous spaces for popular participation.

The protests that have exploded across Venezuelan cities in recent days—whose most prevalent hashtag calls for #LaSalida, the departure of Maduro from power—have nothing to do with this arduous process of building a new society. While the protests are ostensibly about economic scarcity and insecurity—very real concerns, for the record—these do not explain why the protests have emerged now. Behind the scenes, the protests are a reflection of the weakness of the Venezuelan opposition, not its strength. Reeling from a serious electoral defeat in December’s local elections, old tensions have re-emerged, splintering the fleeting unity behind the presidential candidacy of Henrique Capriles Radonski who was defeated by Maduro last April. Amid the maneuvering so common to this opposition, more hard-line voices, impatient with the electoral game, have outflanked Capriles to the right: Ledezma, as well as María Corina Machado and Leopoldo López.

The political party in which both López and Capriles cut their teeth—Primero Justicia—emerged at the intersection of corruption and foreign intervention: López would later be barred from public office for allegedly receiving funds from his mother, a state oil executive. Less deniable is the FOIA revelation that the party received significant injections of funding from US government ancillaries like the National Endowment for Democracy, USAID, and the International Republican Institute. López is no stranger to street violence, nor does he flinch at taking the extra-institutional route: during the 2002 coup—of which he has said he is “proud”—he led witch hunts to root out and arrest Chavista ministers amid a violent opposition mob."

Read more @: #LaSalida? Venezuela at a Crossroads | The Nation
 
j-mac said:
The people are growing tired of failed Socialist command control, and the shortages it causes, so they are taking to the streets. So, you must paint them as "violent", and "extreme"..... Yet when a Socialist revolution takes power the same way it is ok with you....The hypocrisy is almost too much to bear.
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"Venezuela is facing a protracted political crisis. Images depicting its streets tell the tale: Student unrest coalesced into massive demonstrations around the country, triggering a violent crackdown on opposition leaders and protesters. The ensuing violence and destructive confrontations over the last several weeks have left at least 13 people dead and scores wounded, with casualties on both sides. Tensions remain high.

Headlines in the United States broadcast unchallenged narratives of widespread discontent with mounting economic woes and denounce the ensuing repression by an unpopular and discredited administration barely clinging to power. But the reality in Venezuela is far more complicated and nuanced than what the media and the U.S. government spin suggests.

For instance, it is difficult to say who is responsible for provoking the conflict. Despite the uncertainty over who is inciting the violence, the U.S. government and press largely condemn President Nicolas Maduro’s administration while framing the protests as popular revolution, in some cases tacitly or even overtly rooting for regime change.

America’s unfettered leverage

The United States’ disenchantment with Venezuelan politics in the last 15 years is no secret. The U.S. has a sordid history of exerting unfettered influence in Latin America. It has supported the ouster of democratically elected governments and backed strongmen whose policies advance U.S. economic and political interests, inflicting incalculable suffering on the most vulnerable citizens of those countries.

After being sworn into office in 1999, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who died in office last year, instituted policies that have been a thorn in the side of successive U.S. administrations and posed a lasting challenge to Washington’s hegemony in the region. The U.S. has not taken kindly to that, providing funding for “democracy promotion” initiatives in the country through organizations that have historically destabilized left-leaning governments. The 2014 U.S. foreign operations budget includes at least $5 million for supporting opposition activities in Venezuela. Despite their lofty labels, these projects did little to enhance the popular political participation of Venezuela’s people. While the U.S. casts its condemnation of the government’s response as unswerving support for principles of democracy and freedom, its position runs contrary to the democratically expressed will of the Venezuelan people.

Venezuela faces serious economic challenges, and people are understandably concerned about scarcity and financial instability. Outrage about rampant crime cuts across all sectors of the country, and there are no easy solutions for Maduro or an opposition-led government. But a narrow focus on high inflation, crime and shortages of food and consumer goods masks the country’s unparalleled progress in poverty reduction.

Venezuela has the lowest income inequality in Latin America and the Caribbean. A detailed analysis by the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) found that poverty in Venezuela dropped by almost 50 percent and extreme poverty declined by 70 percent since 2004.These gains reflect an increase in cash income only and do not include other benefits that measurably improve quality of life, including access to education and health care. Similar growth indicators from the U.N.’s 2013 Human Development Report and the World Bank suggest that the alarm over the imminent collapse of the Venezuelan economy is unsupported by objective data. "
The US should respect Venezuela’s democracy | Al Jazeera America
 
Venezuela's protest movement has continued to take to the streets in the last week despite a crackdown on opposition leaders by the government and attempts to impose an internet blackout. A retired army general named Angel Vivas has fought against his arrest, like a boss, by standing on his roof with an assault rifle and refusing to hand himself over to police. However, opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez has been incarcerated on charges of inciting violence, despite repeatedly calling for change by legal means only.

On the streets there has been sporadic violence with protesters hurling rocks and stones and police responding with tear gas, rubber bullets and in some cases, live rounds. Up to 12 people are currently believed to have been killed.

Meanwhile, President Nicolas Maduro has vowed to continue fighting against the demonstrators he has labelled as "fascists" and "coupongers".
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Video @:Venezuela's battle for the streets continues - Truthloader - YouTube
 
People need to wake up and realize that socialism just doesnt work. There is currently a massive oil boom with the price being over $100 a barrel yet the socialists in Venezuela have totally screwed up the economy despite having one of the largest oil reserves in the world. You cant make this up. :roll:
 
PoS said:
People need to wake up and realize that socialism just doesnt work. There is currently a massive oil boom with the price being over $100 a barrel yet the socialists in Venezuela have totally screwed up the economy despite having one of the largest oil reserves in the world. You cant make this up. :roll:
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If capitalism worked, there wouldn't be any socialism. Just a thought.
 
PoS said:
People need to wake up and realize that socialism just doesnt work. There is currently a massive oil boom with the price being over $100 a barrel yet the socialists in Venezuela have totally screwed up the economy despite having one of the largest oil reserves in the world. You cant make this up. :roll:
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One word:

Norway.
 
PeteEU said:
One word:

Norway.
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Pity all the other countries in the world dont have massive oil reserves combined with low population, eh? :cool:
 
ReformCollege said:
True or false: Venezuela would be in a better spot if Chavez made better decisions; regardless of the US's history in the area.

Because by your logic, France/England should be blamed for the Holocaust.
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True or false: the US would be in a better spot if American presidents made better decisions. Regardless of foreign history in the area.
 
joG said:
Your formulation show that you either have an overriding agenda or have never thought these things through. Or it is the combo.
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It's an overriding agenda to be against the US killing of civilians.
 
PoS said:
People need to wake up and realize that socialism just doesnt work. There is currently a massive oil boom with the price being over $100 a barrel yet the socialists in Venezuela have totally screwed up the economy despite having one of the largest oil reserves in the world. You cant make this up. :roll:
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Is that a promotion of US CIA atrocities in Latin America.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
"Venezuela is facing a protracted political crisis. Images depicting its streets tell the tale: Student unrest coalesced into massive demonstrations around the country, triggering a violent crackdown on opposition leaders and protesters. The ensuing violence and destructive confrontations over the last several weeks have left at least 13 people dead and scores wounded, with casualties on both sides. Tensions remain high.

Headlines in the United States broadcast unchallenged narratives of widespread discontent with mounting economic woes and denounce the ensuing repression by an unpopular and discredited administration barely clinging to power. But the reality in Venezuela is far more complicated and nuanced than what the media and the U.S. government spin suggests.

For instance, it is difficult to say who is responsible for provoking the conflict. Despite the uncertainty over who is inciting the violence, the U.S. government and press largely condemn President Nicolas Maduro’s administration while framing the protests as popular revolution, in some cases tacitly or even overtly rooting for regime change.

America’s unfettered leverage

The United States’ disenchantment with Venezuelan politics in the last 15 years is no secret. The U.S. has a sordid history of exerting unfettered influence in Latin America. It has supported the ouster of democratically elected governments and backed strongmen whose policies advance U.S. economic and political interests, inflicting incalculable suffering on the most vulnerable citizens of those countries.

After being sworn into office in 1999, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who died in office last year, instituted policies that have been a thorn in the side of successive U.S. administrations and posed a lasting challenge to Washington’s hegemony in the region. The U.S. has not taken kindly to that, providing funding for “democracy promotion” initiatives in the country through organizations that have historically destabilized left-leaning governments. The 2014 U.S. foreign operations budget includes at least $5 million for supporting opposition activities in Venezuela. Despite their lofty labels, these projects did little to enhance the popular political participation of Venezuela’s people. While the U.S. casts its condemnation of the government’s response as unswerving support for principles of democracy and freedom, its position runs contrary to the democratically expressed will of the Venezuelan people.

Venezuela faces serious economic challenges, and people are understandably concerned about scarcity and financial instability. Outrage about rampant crime cuts across all sectors of the country, and there are no easy solutions for Maduro or an opposition-led government. But a narrow focus on high inflation, crime and shortages of food and consumer goods masks the country’s unparalleled progress in poverty reduction.

Venezuela has the lowest income inequality in Latin America and the Caribbean. A detailed analysis by the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) found that poverty in Venezuela dropped by almost 50 percent and extreme poverty declined by 70 percent since 2004.These gains reflect an increase in cash income only and do not include other benefits that measurably improve quality of life, including access to education and health care. Similar growth indicators from the U.N.’s 2013 Human Development Report and the World Bank suggest that the alarm over the imminent collapse of the Venezuelan economy is unsupported by objective data. "
The US should respect Venezuela’s democracy | Al Jazeera America
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Ah yes, the "it's complicated, you wouldn't understand" excuse...spare me.
 
j-mac said:
Ah yes, the "it's complicated, you wouldn't understand" excuse...spare me.
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Well saying the article goes on to explain the situation..... Didnt really state "you wouldnt understand" instead tried to pain the whole picture.
 
This thread is just filled with stupid.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Well saying the article goes on to explain the situation..... Didnt really state "you wouldnt understand" instead tried to pain the whole picture.
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No you didn't. However, when you use an article that starts it's premise with terms like "...it's a bit more nuanced..." we all know what follows.
 
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