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Fears of more protest clashes high in Venezuela

Andalublue said:
Trouble is, the list of horrific despots that the US (and plenty of other supposedly 'civilised' western countries) have supported enthusiastically is a long one. Here are just 10:

  • Jean-Claude Duvalier (Haiti)
  • Manuel Noriega (Panama)
  • Augusto Pinochet (Chile)
  • Chiang Kai-shek (China)
  • The Shah of Iran
  • Ferdinand Marcos (Phillippines)
  • Islam Karimov (Uzbekistan)
  • Charles Taylor (Liberia)
  • Francisco Franco (Spain)
  • Hosni Mubarak (Egypt)
Don't trash the Bolivarians for despotism when you've been active participants in totalitarianism the world over.
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You forgot to mention the successive right wing Presidents of Venezuela that the US supported for decades that directly lead to Chavez taking over...
 
PeteEU said:
You forgot to mention the successive right wing Presidents of Venezuela that the US supported for decades that directly lead to Chavez taking over...
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It was hardly an exhaustive list, but fair comment.
 
Wiggen said:
Careful now - your dealing with the Euro-lefty view of world history. Which essentially can be summed up as follows: Everything bad that happens in the world is American's fault - and if it isn't, it's Israel's fault. It makes life so simple for them.
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Unlike the American right wing view of history where the US is the good guy in everything and invented everything and is gods voice on earth?

Like it or not, US meddling in countries through out the world has either directly or indirectly caused quite a number of issues around the world and has resulted in left wing governments in South America over the last 20 years including Chavez.
 
j-mac said:
You tell me? I don't see the UN asking the rest of the world's countries to give more treasure and man power. I too don't think we should be the world's police force, but I don't trash the U.S for doing so while defending despots either.
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How in the world do you continue to ignore/deny the despots that the US has supported. Why are you silent on the CIA's toppling of democratically elected governments, sometimes replacing them with brutal dictators. You guys enable this behaviour. US foreign policy doesn't consider human rights, that's only stated because it sells. US foreign policy considers the interests of international corporations.
 
PeteEU said:
Unlike the American right wing view of history where the US is the good guy in everything and invented everything and is gods voice on earth?

Like it or not, US meddling in countries through out the world has either directly or indirectly caused quite a number of issues around the world and has resulted in left wing governments in South America over the last 20 years including Chavez.
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That cannot be denied. And in the case of Chavez, Morales, and Correa, it was the basis of their platforms.
 
Montecresto said:
If there's a protest aimed at toppling a government around the world, its bound to be a government that the US would like to see toppled, and the US is bound to be behind it supporting it.


CARACAS - The Venezuelan government on Monday ordered three US diplomats accused of inciting violent protests that left three people dead and dozens injured to leave the country within two days.
"All these diplomats are required to leave from our sovereign and independent homeland of Venezuela in the next 48 hours for actively being involved in the organization and promotion of these groups that now intend to generate violence in our country," Foreign Minister Elias Jaua told a press conference.

Venezuela expels US diplomats for inciting protests |Americas |chinadaily.com.cn
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Right, three Americans are responsible for an entire country on the ropes due to failed government policies. Good one.
 
Andalublue said:
Trouble is, the list of horrific despots that the US (and plenty of other supposedly 'civilised' western countries) have supported enthusiastically is a long one. Here are just 10:

  • Jean-Claude Duvalier (Haiti)
  • Manuel Noriega (Panama)
  • Augusto Pinochet (Chile)
  • Chiang Kai-shek (China)
  • The Shah of Iran
  • Ferdinand Marcos (Phillippines)
  • Islam Karimov (Uzbekistan)
  • Charles Taylor (Liberia)
  • Francisco Franco (Spain)
  • Hosni Mubarak (Egypt)
Don't trash the Bolivarians for despotism when you've been active participants in totalitarianism the world over.
Click to expand...

Yeah? So where are your communist hero's in stopping them? Oh that's right you and them support the despots of the world.
 
ReformCollege said:
Right, three Americans are responsible for an entire country on the ropes due to failed government policies. Good one.
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No, not just three Americans, that's the visible ones. You've no idea how the CIA works apparently.
 
j-mac said:
Yeah? So where are your communist hero's in stopping them? Oh that's right you and them support the despots of the world.
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That's some barely coherent garbage.
 
PeteEU said:
You forgot to mention the successive right wing Presidents of Venezuela that the US supported for decades that directly lead to Chavez taking over...
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I think you should think about two things.
-What problems does a democracy encounter, when it has to wage a 50 year cold war?
-Is it intelligent to try and deflect from ones own failures by pointing at old history, especially before understanding the circumstances.
 
joG said:
I think you should think about two things.
-What problems does a democracy encounter, when it has to wage a 50 year cold war?
-Is it intelligent to try and deflect from ones own failures by pointing at old history, especially before understanding the circumstances.
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Using the Cold War to justify US CIA atrocities in Latin America!?!?
 
joG said:
I think you should think about two things.
-What problems does a democracy encounter, when it has to wage a 50 year cold war?
-Is it intelligent to try and deflect from ones own failures by pointing at old history, especially before understanding the circumstances.
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And something you should think about.

History matters.

What the US did in the cold war does matter, both the good and bad. And in South and Central America's case most of what the US did was bad and the US of today can not run from this history.

Sadly it seems some in the US wants to repeat that history and have learned nothing from the last 50+ years of supporting brutal dictators and not allowing people to live as they want.

Chavez is just a reaction to this history, just as the Mullahs in Tehran are a reaction to this history and so on and so on and you can keep denying this and ignoring these facts, but that wont make them be less of a fact and it wont make them go away.
 
PeteEU said:
And something you should think about.

History matters.

What the US did in the cold war does matter, both the good and bad. And in South and Central America's case most of what the US did was bad and the US of today can not run from this history.

Sadly it seems some in the US wants to repeat that history and have learned nothing from the last 50+ years of supporting brutal dictators and not allowing people to live as they want.

Chavez is just a reaction to this history, just as the Mullahs in Tehran are a reaction to this history and so on and so on and you can keep denying this and ignoring these facts, but that wont make them be less of a fact and it wont make them go away.
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I for one would love for Americans to learn this lesson. As to American leadership though, responsible for foreign policy, there is no lesson to learn. US foreign policy is driven by big business and what is beneficial to that. Look for more of the same supported by Americans who want to, indeed need to believe that our foreign policy has humanitarian interests at its core.
 
Montecresto said:
I for one would love for Americans to learn this lesson. As to American leadership though, responsible for foreign policy, there is no lesson to learn. US foreign policy is driven by big business and what is beneficial to that. Look for more of the same supported by Americans who want to, indeed need to believe that our foreign policy has humanitarian interests at its core.
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I somewhat agree, American foreign policy has always been driven by big business and the 1% since the mid 1800s if not before. The Bannana Wars.. Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, Panama.. all had cold war excuses, but in reality it was funding money towards US business so they could grow and get bigger and bigger.
 
PeteEU said:
I somewhat agree, American foreign policy has always been driven by big business and the 1% since the mid 1800s if not before. The Bannana Wars.. Iran, Vietnam, Iraq, Panama.. all had cold war excuses, but in reality it was funding money towards US business so they could grow and get bigger and bigger.
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Precisely.
 
PeteEU said:
And something you should think about.

History matters.

What the US did in the cold war does matter, both the good and bad. And in South and Central America's case most of what the US did was bad and the US of today can not run from this history.

Sadly it seems some in the US wants to repeat that history and have learned nothing from the last 50+ years of supporting brutal dictators and not allowing people to live as they want.

Chavez is just a reaction to this history, just as the Mullahs in Tehran are a reaction to this history and so on and so on and you can keep denying this and ignoring these facts, but that wont make them be less of a fact and it wont make them go away.
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Explain why it was done and move on. And remind people continuously that those that profited most were the allies in Asia and Europe.
 
Montecresto said:
Using the Cold War to justify US CIA atrocities in Latin America!?!?
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Yep. It was necessary, or seemed so at the time, to win the war.
 
Montecresto said:
No, not just three Americans, that's the visible ones. You've no idea how the CIA works apparently.
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LOL. A Venezuela truther, there's a new one. Yeah I'm sure it's those stupid Americans and absolutely has nothing to do with their failed policies.
 
PeteEU said:
And something you should think about.

History matters.

What the US did in the cold war does matter, both the good and bad. And in South and Central America's case most of what the US did was bad and the US of today can not run from this history.

Sadly it seems some in the US wants to repeat that history and have learned nothing from the last 50+ years of supporting brutal dictators and not allowing people to live as they want.

Chavez is just a reaction to this history, just as the Mullahs in Tehran are a reaction to this history and so on and so on and you can keep denying this and ignoring these facts, but that wont make them be less of a fact and it wont make them go away.
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You still didn't answer his question. Does old history excuse failures that result from present day decision making?
 
joG said:
Yep. It was necessary, or seemed so at the time, to win the war.
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Figures that you would consider US atrocities in Latin America as necessary.
 
Montecresto said:
Figures that you would consider US atrocities in Latin America as necessary.
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The situation in a number of countries was dangerous to the stability required to maintain, what was a world wide effort. The US could not control everything itself nor could it have survived a destabilization of the near abroad. So it more or less let the elites of the countries do, what they thought necessary to secure the required stability and helped where it seemed necessary. So yes. I think that the collateral damage was sad. But I don't see how anything else was possible.
 
joG said:
The situation in a number of countries was dangerous to the stability required to maintain, what was a world wide effort. The US could not control everything itself nor could it have survived a destabilization of the near abroad. So it more or less let the elites of the countries do, what they thought necessary to secure the required stability and helped where it seemed necessary. So yes. I think that the collateral damage was sad. But I don't see how anything else was possible.
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Well, I think the telling thing about US policy in Latin America is that it's too obvious that it is driven by commercial imperatives. There really is no strategic threat to the USA (Mexico and Cuba excepted), just American private business concerns. What possible threat to US security did a democratic, socialist Chile pose?
 
Andalublue said:
Well, I think the telling thing about US policy in Latin America is that it's too obvious that it is driven by commercial imperatives. There really is no strategic threat to the USA (Mexico and Cuba excepted), just American private business concerns. What possible threat to US security did a democratic, socialist Chile pose?
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I think you are right. Since the end of the Cold War there has been no visible strategic threat. The only issue has been the misguided War on Drugs.
That could change with more self declared enemies and will become increasingly dangerous as multi polar structures gain weight. But that is another question that requires a different solution.
 
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