Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial[W:336]

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

MaggieD said:

What am I wrong about? An affirmative defense being necessary when one is on trial for murder and claiming self-defense? No, I'm not. In an affirmative defense, the defendant admits he shot/killed someone - which is against the law - and must show, to the satisfaction of the jury that he acted in self-defense. If he can convince the jury of that, he'll be found not guilty. What is it that you disagree with here?

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The question the jury has to ask is that the use of force what any reasonable person would do. Not what the defendant thinks is reasonable but what a reasonable person would do. if we went by what the defense thought was reasonable we wouldn't have need of a trial.

The jury couldn't agree if what he did was reasonable as some thought it was others didn't. he still has to answer for shooting at innocent people which are the other 3 boys in the car which the jury found was above and beyond reasonable.

unlike what excon thinks you are not immune from collateral damage.

I think you're wrong here. If I am acquitted of shooting/killing a burglar in my home based on self-defense, I can still be held responsible for the fact that I fired six shots and one of them went through the wall and shot a baby in the head. If you have a link that proves otherwise, I'd be happy to have a look.

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[/QUOTE]

There isn't anything that i am aware of. you are responsible for any bullet fired out of a gun and including innocent people outside the perceived threat can still land you in jail.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

MaggieD said:

What am I wrong about? An affirmative defense being necessary when one is on trial for murder and claiming self-defense? No, I'm not. In an affirmative defense, the defendant admits he shot/killed someone - which is against the law - and must show, to the satisfaction of the jury that he acted in self-defense. If he can convince the jury of that, he'll be found not guilty. What is it that you disagree with here?

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:doh You were already shown why what you earlier stated was wrong.

As for what you now say.
[simplified]All an affirmative defense requires is for the defendant to present to the trier of fact a reason why he acted the way he did. Not to just present, or say, I was acting in self defense, but to present why. As in, I shot because he was getting out of his vehicle to carry thorough with his threat to kill me.[/simplification]
The Prosecution is still required to prove all elements of the crime and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant didn't act in self defense.

MaggieD said:

I think you're wrong here. If I am acquitted of shooting/killing a burglar in my home based on self-defense, I can still be held responsible for the fact that I fired six shots and one of them went through the wall and shot a baby in the head. If you have a link that proves otherwise, I'd be happy to have a look.

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Yes you can be. That is what you do not seem to understand.
Which is your failure for not reading that which has already been provided.
What do you not understand about the immunity being complete?
If your response is judged to be self defense you can not be held accountable for any other damage stemming from that act of self defense.

The law can not say you are immune from criminal prosecution for that use of said force, only to say that they can prosecute you for something else stemming from the use of that justified legal force. It doesn't say that at all.
The law gives complete immunity to anything stemming from the use of that force.



That immunity is complete.
Collateral damage or not, the person is covered. And why would that be?
Because you are allowed to protect yourself and should not be held accountable for doing so.

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rocket88 said:

There's always a usually with you. I have yet to see you not defend someone who was carrying a gun.

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Besides you continuing to be personal, your argument, is wrong as usual.
There are more, but just off the top of my head.
The usual seems to be your false off-topic personal responses.

rocket88 said:

There is no corroborating evidence of a threat or a gun.

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There doesn't need to be any direct corroborating evidence.
But there is circumstantial evidence that the claimed gun was stashed.

rocket88 said:

What did the other people who got shot say?

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They had no credibility.
They lost most of it with the bs about the safety locks.
So really matters not.

rocket88 said:

Dunn's fiancee testified that he didn't mention that they had a gun either that day or the day after.

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She was an emotional wreck.
Her not remembering matters not.

rocket88 said:

Apparently only after it was clear he was in trouble.

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:doh
He stated such and has remained adamant from the the first telling to authorities.

rocket88 said:

While that is not evidence, there is also no evidence that there was a gun.

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Yes it is, and yes there was. His account is evidence. And that is supported by the circumstantial evidence that something was stashed. And the suspicious activity of the driver contacting his aunt who later came into the same area.

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ludin said:

The question the jury has to ask is that the use of force what any reasonable person would do. Not what the defendant thinks is reasonable but what a reasonable person would do.

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That isn't even true.
The law in Florida, which has the reasonable man standard written into it, only requires that the response/reaction; ie: the action that the defendant is on trial for; be a reasonable.
Nothing other than that.

Other states are different have the wording reflect otherwise.
But not in the State of Florida.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

So, do you think Michael was a reasonable man?

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Dunn's reaction to a guy getting out of a vehicle to kill him, was reasonable.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

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that only applies to the threat involved it does not include innocent bystanders you are wrong. if you shoot an innocent bystander you are not immune for that action.

That isn't even true.
The law in Florida, which has the reasonable man standard written into it, only requires that the response/reaction; ie: the action that the defendant is on trial for; be a reasonable.
Nothing other than that.

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again incorrect but you don't care so it doesn't matter. you try what you propose in florida and you will go to jail just like dunn is going to jail for attempted murder.

There doesn't need to be any direct corroborating evidence.
But there is circumstantial evidence that the claimed gun was stashed.

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no there isn't even that. that is the theory by the defense attorney that the gun was stashed. that is not evidence. it is his theory. just as it is dunn's testimony not evidence that there was a gun (which no one found).

They had no credibility.
They lost most of it with the bs about the safety locks.
So really matters not.

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you seem to think dunn is completely credible even though his story has a ton of holes in it and he is the only one with that account other witnesses discredit dunn's testimony.

so we have multiple people saying the opposite of dunn including people that were in the car they are all wrong and dunn is right even though what he said has proven to be in-accurate. on top of that he fled the scene of a crime.

next jury manslaughter. dunn shot at 3 innocent kids all because one kid cussed him out. no evidence presented by the defense supports dunn's theory.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

that only applies to the threat involved it does not include innocent bystanders you are wrong. if you shoot an innocent bystander you are not immune for that action.

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Wrong.
The law applies to the act.
If you are acting in self defense, that act can not be used to charge you with any crime stemming from that act.

ludin said:

again incorrect but you don't care so it doesn't matter. you try what you propose in florida and you will go to jail just like dunn is going to jail for attempted murder.

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Wrong.
The law in Florida, which has the reasonable man standard written into it, only requires that the response/reaction; ie: the action that the defendant is on trial for; be a reasonable.
Nothing other than that.

ludin said:

no there isn't even that. that is the theory by the defense attorney that the gun was stashed. that is not evidence. it is his theory. just as it is dunn's testimony not evidence that there was a gun (which no one found).

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That is circumstantial evidence.

ludin said:

you seem to think dunn is completely credible even though his story has a ton of holes in it and he is the only one with that account other witnesses discredit dunn's testimony.

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:doh
You seem to think his account has been discredited, when it hasn't.

ludin said:

so we have multiple people saying the opposite of dunn including people that were in the car they are all wrong and dunn is right even though what he said has proven to be in-accurate.

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Actually, no you don't.
Davis's friends were not credible and they even contradicted each other o key points (which isn't the same as not remembering the retelling of an account), as well as not being able to confirm or deny the the threats made by Davis because the music was too loud for them to hear. Go figure, huh?
And folks do not understand why the Jury didn't return a verdict on murder? Sheeesh. :doh

ludin said:

on top of that he fled the scene of a crime.

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And?
There is no requirement that he needs to stick around.
And his account jibes with human behavior. Especially one who has experienced a traumatic event.

ludin said:

no evidence presented by the defense supports dunn's theory.

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Wrong.
Dunn's account is evidence.
Not on him to prove it, but on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it didn't happen as he said it did.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

i am done with you. you are wrong. you can be charged with other crimes this case was a proven fact charged with attempted murder and convicted for shooting at innocent people.
stand your ground only protects you from the existing threat. it is not an umbrella over all your other actions more so when you start being negligent with what you are doing.

so evidently the jury felt he was negligent by shooting at innocent bystanders IE people in the car. so again you lose.

good luck getting away with shooting at innocent people. you will be sent to jail.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

i am done with you. you are wrong.

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You are done with me because you are wrong. That is clear.

ludin said:

it is not an umbrella over all your other actions

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Either you are being purposely obtuse or you do not undersdtand what was stated.
Read the law.
The immunity is granted to the actions. You can not be charged with any crime over them.
As MaggieD used in her scenario, not even if the bullet you shot your attacker with went through him and into a babies head.
Your self defense actions are immune from criminal prosecution as well as civil action.



What exactly do you think this means?

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

The guy reacted to common and simple freedoms our country allows (listening to preferred music), by killing someone with a gun. It is unimportant if he did so out of racial motivation, insanity, or the belief in unicorns....he is guilty of attempted (and committed) homicide.

This man should be removed from my society.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

It also answers why his g/f was driving and not him. i think he was partly drunk or still buzzed from the wedding.

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Wasn't she drinking too?

This might sound sexist and I have the highest respect for women but a consideration is some women get lost easily when driving in unfamiliar areas. I've none unscientific research and have deternimed a significant number of ladies cannot tell you which way is north, south, east or west in their own city; let alone a city where they're only visiting. Besides, Dunn once lived in Jacksonville.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

tecoyah said:

The guy reacted to common and simple freedoms our country allows (listening to preferred music), by killing someone with a gun.

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That isn't what happened.

And of interest to your absurd statement: Our society does not allow anybody to violate the privacy of another's space with ear rumbling, car shaking music.
His politely asking them to turn down the music, was in accord with societal values. Davis's reaction to that was not.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

That isn't what happened.

And of interest to your absurd statement: Our society does not allow anybody to violate the privacy of another's space with ear rumbling, car shaking music.
His politely asking them to turn down the music, was in accord with societal values. Davis's reaction to that was not.

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Was his violent and deadly reaction equally according to societal norm...if so, we are screwed.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

tecoyah said:

Was his violent and deadly reaction equally according to societal norm...if so, we are screwed.

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You mean his response to a perceived deadly threat? Well, to at least three on the jury, it absolutely was.
And had the jury been instructed not to consider supposed other choices (as the law does not make that a requirement) there may have been more who actually followed the law.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

You mean his response to a perceived deadly threat? Well, to at least three on the jury, it absolutely was.
And had the jury been instructed not to consider supposed other choices (as the law does not make that a requirement) there may have been more who actually followed the law.

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Accordingly...should this be federal law.

If I am offended, and then decide I feel threatened.....I am free to kill you?

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

tecoyah said:

Accordingly...should this be federal law.

If I am offended, and then decide I feel threatened.....I am free to kill you?

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:doh
Just how in the world do you compare being offended, to that of a deadly threat?

That makes no sense.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

:doh
Just how in the world do you compare being offended, to that of a deadly threat?

That makes no sense.

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Dunn reacted to offensive music, and seems to have created a situation by doing so...he then fired 9 shots onto the vehicle of those who offended him.

The offenders are guilty of playing loud music. Dunn is guilty of hilling someone.


These are simple facts...unless I am missing something here.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

tecoyah said:

Accordingly...should this be federal law.

If I am offended, and then decide I feel threatened.....I am free to kill you?

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You have to realize that excon ignores all evidence and takes what the defendant in this case says as truth. what a defendant says isn't evidence it is testimony. evidence is based in fact. testimony is the opinion of the person giving it. testimony is weighed against the evidence shown to reveal the truth.

Dunn got mad because a kid cussed him out. no one in the car or any other witness can back up dunn's story and there is plenty of real evidence including the fact that dunn has changed his story that says the opposite.

words are not threats no matter how much excon would like to believe they are. they are at least not threat enough to use deadly force with.
you are wasting your time.

dunn claims that one of the kids in the car threatened him and that he "supposedly" saw a gun or something in the car.
there is no evidence to support this. this is just what he said.

however the guy was so upset about what happened that he went back to where he was staying ordered a pizza walked the dog.
got up and left the next morning to head home.

didn't call the police to report the crime or anything else.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

tecoyah said:

Dunn reacted to offensive music, and seems to have created a situation by doing so...he then fired 9 shots onto the vehicle of those who offended him.

The offenders are guilty of playing loud music. Dunn is guilty of hilling someone.


These are simple facts...unless I am missing something here.

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Yeah you are missing a lot.


He politely asked the individuals to turn the music down. They did.

Davis then became incensed at Dunn for asking and started threatening to kill him.
Brandished what appeared to be a weapon and then started getting out of the vehicle to carry through with the threat he made.

That is clearly Davis crating the situation that lead to his death. From his taking offense to his friend honoring a polite request in turning down the music, to his making verbal threats with acts to carry through with the threat. Dunn reacted to that threat. Which clearly was not about music, but the threat to his life.

Your version was nothing other than incorrect spin.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

You have to realize that excon ignores all evidence and takes what the defendant in this case says as truth. what a defendant says isn't evidence it is testimony. evidence is based in fact. testimony is the opinion of the person giving it. testimony is weighed against the evidence shown to reveal the truth.

Dunn got mad because a kid cussed him out. no one in the car or any other witness can back up dunn's story and there is plenty of real evidence including the fact that dunn has changed his story that says the opposite.

words are not threats no matter how much excon would like to believe they are. they are at least not threat enough to use deadly force with.
you are wasting your time.

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And again; Stop making this personal. I am not the subject.

Regardless. Nothing you said was correct.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

And again; Stop making this personal. I am not the subject.

Regardless. Nothing you said was correct.

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your statements are if you don't like being called out on it don't post in the thread.
you can keep saying I am wrong all you want to all I have to say is
3 attempted murders guilty.

what weapon? no weapons were found anywhere. as I said you take dunns word 100% and ignore all other evidence.
talk about a myopic view.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

your statements are if you don't like being called out on it don't post in the thread.

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Contest the statement then, not me. Or do you really not know the difference.

ludin said:

you can keep saying I am wrong all you want to all I have to say is

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And you are wrong. The evidence even says you are wrong.

ludin said:

3 attempted murders guilty.

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:doh
:lamo
Do try to focus, that matters not to the charge of killing Davis.

ludin said:

what weapon? no weapons were found anywhere. as I said you take dunns word 100% and ignore all other evidence.
talk about a myopic view.

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A weapon didn't have to be found. The prosecution has to prove one didn't exist and can't do that because of the evidence. Do you really not understand that?
And to your bs claim of ignoring? It is bs as there is no reliable evidence that says otherwise.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

Contest the statement then, not me. Or do you really not know the difference.

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I am.

And you are wrong. The evidence even say s you are wrong.

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Nope not really as the only and it isn't even evidence the only testimony that you are going on is dunn's. you see we have more than just dunn's testimony.
you have ignored 99% of it. why? because it shows what dunn really is. a hot head with a gun that shot a kid because he was cussing him out and calling him names.
that is not enough to kill someone over.

testimony =/= evidence as testimony can be countered with evidence.

so if you have evidence please show me.

where is the gun?
prove that the medical examiner lied along with forensic testing which shows that davis was shot sitting down in a car moving away from the door.
prove with anything other than what dunn said happened since his story is well crap and he couldn't even tell it straight the 2nd time.

you say everyone is wrong wrong wrong then please present something or anything other than dunn said. please. so far you have failed to do so.
evidently people on the jury didn't believe him in some fashion. maybe others did as I read now since he did attempted homicide with a gun minimum he gets is 60 years.
maybe they left that was enough.

:doh
:lamo
Do try to focus, that matters not to the charge of killing Davis.

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ol yea he is being retried for that one. in the end he shot at innocent people and the jury convicted him of it. they didn't believe his self defense story just as they shouldn't.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

ludin said:

I am.

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No you were not.
The following is you discussing me.

ludin said:

Nope not really as the only and it isn't even evidence the only testimony that you are going on is dunn's. you see we have more than just dunn's testimony.

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Wrong. There is no such requirement.
The requirement is that the Prosecution prove he did not act in self defense.
What she does not and can not disprove stands.

ludin said:

you have ignored 99% of it.

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Wrong. I haven't ignored any of it.
Or do you not know that putting it into proper perspective in toto of the whole evidence is proper?

ludin said:

why? because it shows what dunn really is. a hot head with a gun that shot a kid because he was cussing him out and calling him names.
that is not enough to kill someone over.

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Nothing but the manifestations of your own imagination.

ludin said:

testimony =/= evidence as testimony can be countered with evidence.

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And you are again showing you know not of what you speak.
Testimony is evidence. Try educating your self on the law.
That is why it is called testimonial evidence. Duh!
That is why a person who is arrested its told that what they say, can and will be used against them, because it is evidence. :doh

ludin said:

so if you have evidence please show me.

where is the gun?

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Dunn's account is evidence that there was a gun. It is evidence that the prosecution must disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.
He does not have to show or provided anything more than that.
And because of Davis's friends actions, and that of a witness that saw one of them in what appeared to be stashing something, coupled with the driver calling his aunt instead of completing a call to 911, and her then coming into the area, and the police not looking until days later, you have all the makings that the gun really did exist and was stashed. And that is what you are ignoring as it has been pointed out several times now.

ludin said:

prove that the medical examiner lied along with forensic testing which shows that davis was shot sitting down in a car moving away from the door.

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Why are you so confused about this?
No one said she lied. It was said that her conclusions were based on faulty information. Do you really not understand that?
Garbage in, garbage out.

ludin said:

prove with anything other than what dunn said happened since his story is well crap and he couldn't even tell it straight the 2nd time.

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More imaginative bs from.
Dispute his account with actual evidence and not your imagination.

ludin said:

you say everyone is wrong wrong wrong

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I point out where people are wrong. Just like I do for you.
Pay attention and you may just learn something.

ludin said:

then please present something or anything other than dunn said. please. so far you have failed to do so.

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I have present the evidence as known. I need not provided anything other than that.
Do you really not understand that?

ludin said:

evidently people on the jury didn't believe him in some fashion.

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Two wanted acquittal from the start.
One came around to that viewpoint.
A very major accomplishment when the weight and resources of the state are brought down upon a person.


And the one speaking out made it clear she was not following the law. Dunn did not have to take any other action.
So if that is any indication of where the other jurors are at, it is a good thing they were hung, because at least one who wanted him found guilty wasn't following the law.

ludin said:

maybe others did as I read now since he did attempted homicide with a gun minimum he gets is 60 years.
maybe they left that was enough.

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Oy vey! :doh
I see you haven't been paying attention.

They had no choice but to find guilty because they were required to determine these charges separately.
As Davis's friends did nothing to provoke the gunfire coming their direction.

ludin said:

ol yea he is being retried for that one. in the end he shot at innocent people and the jury convicted him of it. they didn't believe his self defense story just as they shouldn't.

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Your narrative is off as to "he shot at".
He shot at the threat. And that threat was Davis.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

Excon said:

No you were not.
The following is you discussing me.

​

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do not be dishonest and cut off the quote. I said excon believes. that is your thoughts and what you think not you.

Wrong. There is no such requirement.
The requirement is that the Prosecution prove he did not act in self defense.
What she does not and can not disprove stands.

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he didn't according to the evidence submitted by the prosecution and the testimony of all witnesses including dunn himself.

Wrong. I haven't ignored any of it.
Or do you not know that putting it into proper perspective in toto of the whole evidence is proper?

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yes you have because you have yet to present anything that backs up any argument you have made here other than dunn said. which is well not an argument.

Nothing but the manifestations of your own imagination.

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ad hominen irrelevant to a debate.

Dunn's account is evidence that there was a gun. It is evidence that the prosecution must disprove beyond a reasonable doubt.

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there was no gun. so that has been disproven. if you say there was a gun prove it by something other than what dunn "claimed".

He does not have to show or provided anything more than that.

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wrong. he has to supply enough evidence to make himself believable. in fact he saw what he appeared to be a barrel that doesn't make it a gun. the fact he didn't tell his g/f that there was a gun. none of the kids in the car said they had a gun and no gun was found.

And because of Davis's friends actions, and that of a witness that saw one of them in what appeared to be stashing something, coupled with the driver calling his aunt instead of completing a call to 911, and her then coming into the area, and the police not looking until days later, you have all the makings that the gun really did exist and was stashed. And that is what you are ignoring as it has been pointed out several times now.

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that is what they claimed of course they were probably ducking because they were being shot at. so again non-reliable testimony that would cause them to be shot at.
no you don't prove it.

Why are you so confused about this?
No one said she lied. It was said that her conclusions were based on faulty information. Do you really not understand that?
Garbage in, garbage out.

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prove it. if you can't prove it with anything other than dunn said then you can't prove it therefore her information is accurate. do you not understand that. the arguments in a debate are much higher than a defense. if you want to make an assertion that this is a fact then you have to be able to supply the evidence to prove it.
if you can't then your point is invalid.

More imaginative bs from.
Dispute his account with actual evidence and not your imagination.

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They did during the trial which is why the majority of jury members found him guilty of murder they just couldn't convince the others.

I point out where people are wrong. Just like I do for you.
Pay attention and you may just learn something.

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wrong. is the only thing you can say because you can't back up any of your statements.

I have present the evidence as known. I need not provided anything other than that.
Do you really not understand that?

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No you have presented what 1 guy said. a debate has a much higher call of evidence than so and so said so you are wrong.

Two wanted acquittal from the start.
One came around to that viewpoint.
A very major accomplishment when the weight and resources of the state are brought down upon a person.

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not really still means that 9 people found him guilty of murder.

And the one speaking out made it clear she was not following the law. Dunn did not have to take any other action.
So if that is any indication of where the other jurors are at, it is a good thing they were hung, because at least one who wanted him found guilty wasn't following the law.

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yes they were. they didn't believe his self defense story. that is following the law. you assume because someone goes he threatened me he gets off.
that isn't how it works. reasonable force is required. someone cussing at you is not enough to invoke deadly force no matter where you are at.

Oy vey! :doh
I see you haven't been paying attention.

They had no choice but to find guilty because they were required to determine these charges separately.
As Davis's friends did nothing to provoke the gunfire coming their direction.


Your narrative is off as to "he shot at".
He shot at the threat. And that threat was Davis.

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yea because he was guilty something you claim he wasn't.

no he shot 9 times 3 or 4 of the bullets didn't hit anywhere near davis they hit the front passenger door. davis was in the back. the next 3 shot hit davis and killed him.
the next 3 shots hit the back of the car and one almost hit the driver in the back of the head.

kind hard to say you are in self defense mode when the kid can't get out of the car and is shot sitting down.

manslaughter next jury if they can find one that isn't tainted.

Re: Dunn convicted of attempted murder; hung jury on murder in 'loud-music' trial

If there was a gun, Dunn's actions after the shooting has led to his being convicted

Had he stayed and reported the shooting, the police would have come and then would have searched for the gun right away.

Since no gun was found, his claims of self defense dropped as a valid viewpoint in the jurors minds leading to his conviction.

That of course is if a shot gun was actually there of course.