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Majority of Americans Favor Ties With Cuba, Poll Finds

WCH said:
First they would need to do as China has done, partially let go of their Communist doctrine and lean toward a Capitalist economy. Them maybe. As it is now, most people are poor.
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Opening a dialogue, then trade and then travel starts that process.

The regime knows its days are numbered.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think you have that backwards. The embargo keeps out USA drugs and crime. When's the last time you heard of interdiction of a load of drugs from Cuba. Never! How the hell would travel restrictions keep travelling American people safe. Safer in Cuba than in the USA.
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I'm fairly confident, that america is safer then Cuba... I moved to america for a reason, I'm tired of americans taking there safety and lifestyle for granted... Seriously you guys have everything you could ever want in excess the crime is very uncommon and tends to only be in poor neighborhoods, you have to be daft to not find work here... why do alot of you want to **** on your own government so often? Yes the USA has it's issues that needs to be sorted out but it is miles safer here then most of the world.... Have you ever feared for your life in your own home? You're just sitting in your house on a computer wasting your day away with no fears of not being able to eat, not being able to find work, not being able to be bitten by some sort of creature.... Cuba is not safer then the USA in my opinion....
 
Follow the money on Cuba. See what big money was most affected when Castro took over. See if those same economic forces still exist and could continue to force the politics that support the embargo... Let's see, the Mafia, US Sugar, Rockefeller fruit and banking Corporations, Kennedy Rum interests, etc. Do your homework and it will be easy to understand, but will never be right.
 
Chocolate said:
Yeah cause i'm a communist I should love the pile of **** that was Cubas attempt, and continued ****ery of communism Because communism is the best, unflawed and every government has done it right? lol... I don't know much about cuba, other then alot of the horror stories I have heard. I do not support that country in anyway
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My father has been there on several missionary trips and told me how poor the people were and how little the government gives them to survive each month. Even the fruits, vegetables and livestock they grow become property of the Government. Nothing is theirs.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think that's a good thing.
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Sugar water is bad for your teeth and causes heart disease, but I see nothing wrong with Coca-Cola's enterprise. When the trade restrictions were lifted on Myanmar in 2012, Coke practically threw 20,000 cases on a direct flight to Yangon and Atlanta, Georgia planted a big ole American flag smack in the middle of the country.

Coca-Cola Co. KO +0.14% and Unilever ULVR.LN +0.88% will invest a total of nearly $1 billion in Myanmar over the next decade, making the biggest commitments by Western multinational corporations and becoming the first prominent global companies to restart manufacturing in the Southeast Asian country. The announcements came more than a year after Western sanctions against investment in Myanmar were tentatively lifted. Western investor interest in the still-risky market so far has taken the form of representative offices and discussions about joint ventures. Most foreign direct investment has come from other Asian countries.

Coke formally opened a bottling plant Tuesday on the outskirts of Yangon, where manufacturing began in April. The company plans to start producing Coke at another plant within two months, pledging $200 million over the next five years to increase production and distribution across the country.

Coke and Unilever Invest $1 Billion in Myanmar - WSJ.com
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brothern said:
This isn't much of a surprise poll if you are politically attuned. I haven’t the slightest of ideas why we still have trade embargoes and travel restrictions on Cuba. Although I'm certain that we might be able to tease out some DP posters who believe this is a bad idea.

My only concern is - as the NYT article mentions - human rights in Cuba. Yetl I find it strange that anyone would believe that the US (and Cubans) is better at increasing respect for human rights by isolating the Cuba. All that type [of diplomacy] achieves is an echo chamber for the Cuban government. Free trade, American tourist dollars and free movement are much better at spreading ideas and (given Cuban censorship) sharing restricted materials deemed to be dangerous.

Moreover, I'm jealous that only the Chinese and Venezuelans are able to sit on Cuban beaches sipping piña coladas.
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Firstly, I'm not sure what the urgency or benefit the US sees in opening up "ties" with Cuba. Perhaps ending the trade embargo and all that goes with it might be acceptible, but what does America get out of the deal?

Secondly, does anyone think that if you normalize relations with Cuba, tons of Cubans wouldn't take that advantage to find a way into mainland America and set up shop as illegal immigrants? If they're willing to pile onto rafts in the hundreds and thousands to float to Florida, how many are likely to find a more convenient way to get there.

Thirdly, more than Chinese and Venezuelans go to Cuba - Canadians go there for a cheap vacation all the time and in years past Americans would fly into Toronto or Montreal to hop on a charter holiday flight to Havana. It's not as if it was difficult - but perhaps now, with Homeland Security more intrusive, perhaps that avenue isn't as available now.

Fourthly, the beaches in Cuba may be nice, but that's about it - the hotels and everything else is stuck in the 50s - you need to bring your own toilet paper, water, and other staples - and don't drink anything unless it's pure liquor (not a bad idea if you're there) and never have ice in your drink, unless you want to spend your time on that toilet and using all your toilet paper in one day.

Rather than America making overtures to Cuba, why not let Cuba make the overtures and apologize for their behaviour under Castro, etc. If they want to get back into the free world environment, let them show how they're going to change to get there.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Opening a dialogue, then trade and then travel starts that process.

The regime knows its days are numbered.
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Maybe. Frankly I'm surprised Obama hasn't penned a declaration peace with them. [and closed Gitmo]
 
CanadaJohn said:
Firstly, I'm not sure what the urgency or benefit the US sees in opening up "ties" with Cuba. Perhaps ending the trade embargo and all that goes with it might be acceptible, but what does America get out of the deal?
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The EU has opened up bilateral negotiations with Cuba, as of yesterday.

CanadaJohn said:
Secondly, does anyone think that if you normalize relations with Cuba, tons of Cubans wouldn't take that advantage to find a way into mainland America and set up shop as illegal immigrants? If they're willing to pile onto rafts in the hundreds and thousands to float to Florida, how many are likely to find a more convenient way to get there.
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I doubt that Cubans will be allowed to leave Cuban soil anytime soon. Besides we have normal relations with Haiti, Guatemala, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic. Do we see an abnormally lower level of illegal immigrants coming through the US boarder and on rafts from those countries? Genuine question. Last I checked, I don't see large masses of illegal immigrants from Latin American and Caribbean countries making it through US Customs in our airports.

CanadaJohn said:
Thirdly, more than Chinese and Venezuelans go to Cuba - Canadians go there for a cheap vacation all the time and in years past Americans would fly into Toronto or Montreal to hop on a charter holiday flight to Havana. It's not as if it was difficult - but perhaps now, with Homeland Security more intrusive, perhaps that avenue isn't as available now.

Fourthly, the beaches in Cuba may be nice, but that's about it - the hotels and everything else is stuck in the 50s - you need to bring your own toilet paper, water, and other staples - and don't drink anything unless it's pure liquor (not a bad idea if you're there) and never have ice in your drink, unless you want to spend your time on that toilet and using all your toilet paper in one day.
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Aussies as well. I'm globalized enough to have been invited to vacation in Havana before by non-American friends who didn't know that these travel restrictions existed for American citizens. And well, these types of uncomfortable conditions exist in almost all Caribbean and Latin American countries. That's why resorts exist. :p

CanadaJohn said:
Rather than America making overtures to Cuba, why not let Cuba make the overtures and apologize for their behaviour under Castro, etc. If they want to get back into the free world environment, let them show how they're going to change to get there.
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Raul Castro has made it well known that he's willing to sit down with the US. I also don't see the point of demanding an apology from Cuba. What exactly is that going to solve or prove? That the US government is filled with dopes who hold grudges for a really, really long time?
 
Red_Dave said:
How so? both involved property deeds that originated from a time when one nation was subjugated by the other
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The major difference I was referring to was that in one case it was third party property. In the other case it was the oppressor's ill gained treasure. ;)
 
lizzie said:
I suspect it's mostly because they want the cigars. ;)
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This point there is no good reason to not trade with them. It would help increase ours and their prosperity. They no longer have the backing of Russia and are no longer a threat to us
 
tacomancer said:
This point there is no good reason to not trade with them. It would help increase ours and their prosperity. They no longer have the backing of Russia and are no longer a threat to us
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I don't disagree at all- it's just that Cuban cigars are probably about the best import item we can get from there. :lol:
 
lizzie said:
I don't disagree at all- it's just that Cuban cigars are probably about the best import item we can get from there. :lol:
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Hey have some kick ass rum and they could probably sell their cars to our collectors market for more than a few bucks
 
I'd trade Obama for a couple of Cuban cigars. Seems fair enough.
 
joG said:
The major difference I was referring to was that in one case it was third party property. In the other case it was the oppressor's ill gained treasure. ;)
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And I'm arguing that property in both cases was ill gotten due to the subjugation of the country by the U.S from the Spanish american war onwards. How much of this property came as a direct result of American occupation following the war and U.S relations with Batista?
 
Red_Dave said:
And I'm arguing that property in both cases was ill gotten due to the subjugation of the country by the U.S from the Spanish american war onwards. How much of this property came as a direct result of American occupation following the war and U.S relations with Batista?
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That would be a good one for the courts. Was Batista the rightful leader or not? I do not think that you would be able to make the argument that the US had been a colonial master in the European sense during the 1940s and 50s. While it might have been quasi legal to disposes nationals after the revolution Castro's property grab of third nation assets was not.
 
brothern said:
The EU has opened up bilateral negotiations with Cuba, as of yesterday.
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Not sure why this would be relevant to the US - it's not as if Cuba has anything economically that the US needs and/or will lose to the EU - Cuba is piss-poor and not about to become some economic juggernaut that the US will miss out on.


brothern said:
I doubt that Cubans will be allowed to leave Cuban soil anytime soon. Besides we have normal relations with Haiti, Guatemala, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic. Do we see an abnormally lower level of illegal immigrants coming through the US boarder and on rafts from those countries? Genuine question. Last I checked, I don't see large masses of illegal immigrants from Latin American and Caribbean countries making it through US Customs in our airports.
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If Cuba is going to continue to ignore the human rights and freedom of movement of the Cuban people, why would the US normalize relations with them - does the US have normalized relations with North Korea, another society where its citizens aren't allowed to leave, as an example? The others you mention aren't in the same situation and aren't mere "swimming distance" from the Florida coast.


brothern said:
Aussies as well. I'm globalized enough to have been invited to vacation in Havana before by non-American friends who didn't know that these travel restrictions existed for American citizens. And well, these types of uncomfortable conditions exist in almost all Caribbean and Latin American countries. That's why resorts exist. :p
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So, as noted, there's nothing that Cuba offers that isn't available on dozens of other Caribbean islands and in Latin America - proving again that Cuba needs the US far more than the US needs Cuba.


brothern said:
Raul Castro has made it well known that he's willing to sit down with the US. I also don't see the point of demanding an apology from Cuba. What exactly is that going to solve or prove? That the US government is filled with dopes who hold grudges for a really, really long time?
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Cuba doesn't need to apologize to the US - it needs to apologize to its own people and the apology should come in the form of human rights protections, the opening of political prisons, and the granting of freedom of movement. Once Cuba makes meaningful movement towards a free and democratic society, then they may have something to offer the US.
 
brothern said:
This isn't much of a surprise poll if you are politically attuned. I haven’t the slightest of ideas why we still have trade embargoes and travel restrictions on Cuba. Although I'm certain that we might be able to tease out some DP posters who believe this is a bad idea.

My only concern is - as the NYT article mentions - human rights in Cuba. Yetl I find it strange that anyone would believe that the US (and Cubans) is better at increasing respect for human rights by isolating the Cuba. All that type [of diplomacy] achieves is an echo chamber for the Cuban government. Free trade, American tourist dollars and free movement are much better at spreading ideas and (given Cuban censorship) sharing restricted materials deemed to be dangerous.

Moreover, I'm jealous that only the Chinese and Venezuelans are able to sit on Cuban beaches sipping piña coladas.
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The Castros are assholes and they're not to be trusted. Remember these clowns are still loyal to every communist nation in the world and at times are the perfect puppet for these communist nations...

IMO, Cuba will have to extend its hand first to have any diplomatic discussions and possible trade agreements.

Remember back in 1980 when Castro had so many prisoners both political and criminal that he emptied his prisons and threw them all in banana boats and gave them directions to Miami?

Oh and lets not forget how he allowed the USSR to stockpile nuclear weapons in Cuba (the Cuban Missile Crisis)

Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America...

So it's not exactly like Cuba is some sort of "victim."

Prior to Casto's coup in 1959 Cuba as a wonderful vacation spot for US citizens or citizens all over the world - then Castro turned Cuba into an authoritarian communist third world **** hole....

The Castro bro's would double cross the United States in a nanosecond to boot.

What the US should have done was to invade Cuba, get rid of Castro and return Cuba to the exotic and wonderful destination it was pre 1959.

IMO, if that whole Castro/Guevara "revolution" bull**** never went down - I think today Cuba would be a republic of the US if not a state.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America...
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CanadaJohn said:
brothern said:
The EU has opened up bilateral negotiations with Cuba, as of yesterday.
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Not sure why this would be relevant to the US - it's not as if Cuba has anything economically that the US needs and/or will lose to the EU - Cuba is piss-poor and not about to become some economic juggernaut that the US will miss out on.
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I'm very skeptical of this argument of yours. When has the US ever wanted to miss an opportunity, however small? It's a country 90 miles away that's near to massive American ports and has a population of 11 million people, who have hundred of thousands of their relatives living within our country. We've got great leverage and opportunity in Cuba that most other countries simply do not have.

CanadaJohn said:
If Cuba is going to continue to ignore the human rights and freedom of movement of the Cuban people, why would the US normalize relations with them - does the US have normalized relations with North Korea, another society where its citizens aren't allowed to leave, as an example? The others you mention aren't in the same situation and aren't mere "swimming distance" from the Florida coast.
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Central African Republic, Egypt, Ukraine, China, Myanmar, Nigeria, Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Russia and Iran.

All breaking news countries with recent and egregious violations of human rights. How come we don't embargo and isolate them? The only difference is that isolation is not the status quo for these countries; that's only an incredibly limited tradition with Cuba. Quite frankly, in all other circumstances, we in the Western world seek diplomatic solutions within the country. We seek to improve the nation and empower its people through humanitarian aide and foreign investment. I simply am not sold on "isolationism" being the solution for Cuba, when we pursue complete different paths with almost all other countries.

CanadaJohn said:
So, as noted, there's nothing that Cuba offers that isn't available on dozens of other Caribbean islands and in Latin America - proving again that Cuba needs the US far more than the US needs Cuba.
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In terms of nice beaches.

CanadaJohn said:
Cuba doesn't need to apologize to the US - it needs to apologize to its own people and the apology should come in the form of human rights protections, the opening of political prisons, and the granting of freedom of movement. Once Cuba makes meaningful movement towards a free and democratic society, then they may have something to offer the US.
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BAH! What, are you looking for a miracle? I'm about as confident in that as I am in Russia changing its national anthem to Diana Ross' "I'm Coming Out," or China dismantling its one-party state and creating a independent Tibetan state. Democratization and economic liberalization takes time; it's a rare circumstance that a government completely changes its tune and dissolves itself. Not to mention, when that does happen, it usually means flames, riots and general social unrest.

Cuba is an autocratic echo chamber. It restricts free movement, and its censorship of ideas and "dangerous" material puts China to shame. The EU is doing us liberals in the West a big one, and conditioning their negotiations on human right reforms. With trade and travel restrictions gone, it'd be an absolute boon to the Cuban dissident movement to better share information and ideas among themselves and with the larger world. I believe it is a disappointment that the US cannot bring itself to do the same.
 
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Mr.Nick said:
The Castros are assholes and they're not to be trusted. Remember these clowns are still loyal to every communist nation in the world and at times are the perfect puppet for these communist nations...
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... which is a grand total of 4. Two of which are "communist" in scare quotes.

To condense the following's spacing:

Mr.Nick said:
IMO, Cuba will have to extend its hand first to have any diplomatic discussions and possible trade agreements. Remember back in 1980 when Castro had so many prisoners both political and criminal that he emptied his prisons and threw them all in banana boats and gave them directions to Miami? Oh and lets not forget how he allowed the USSR to stockpile nuclear weapons in Cuba (the Cuban Missile Crisis) Then of course he aided and funded communist gorillas in South America... So it's not exactly like Cuba is some sort of "victim." Prior to Casto's coup in 1959 Cuba as a wonderful vacation spot for US citizens or citizens all over the world - then Castro turned Cuba into an authoritarian communist third world **** hole.... The Castro bro's would double cross the United States in a nanosecond to boot. What the US should have done was to invade Cuba, get rid of Castro and return Cuba to the exotic and wonderful destination it was pre 1959. IMO, if that whole Castro/Guevara "revolution" bull**** never went down - I think today Cuba would be a republic of the US if not a state.
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The US fought a proxy war in Vietnam, the Russians tried to beat us to the moon and Reagan assailed the Iron Curtain; I don't see how any of that OR Cuba's history has any relevancy to today's current political climate beyond informing us of how to approach Cuba. Castro is [almost literally] on life support and the vast majority of the world has moved on from the Cold War.

What's done is done, and there's nothing we can do to time travel and "fix it". All of it sorely needs to be relegated to the past's memory, in order to allow us to deal with today's current issues.
 
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