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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

ChrisL said:
Oh so if you say "no" but lie there spread eagle naked on the bed in front of your boyfriend, and he starts touching you and trying to get you in the mood, is that rape in your opinion?
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Are you claiming that's what happened?
 
ChrisL said:
You are just wrong. She herself says she was not forced nor threatened, nor was she drugged (that would be an easy conviction). Therefore, she had consensual sex and is bitter and probably a little loopy to begin with.
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I honestly don't know whether you've been trolling me all this time. Seriously, as a woman, I have no idea how you can say the things that you've said. If I were to meet you out in public somewhere, slip a drug into your drink while you weren't looking, and take you home and have sex with you while you were unconscious, then by your logic, that would not be rape. Since it's not rape, you'd probably enjoy it. But even if it were a legitimate rape, then you wouldn't have to worry about getting pregnant. Besides, you were probably asking for it anyway.
 
Phys251 said:
The definition of rape depends on the presence of consent. This entire debate comes down to consent. You need to know what consent is before you can proceed.
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I will not be lectured as if I were ignorant thank you. I know perfectly well what informed consent is. That isn't even under question.

The question is this one person making contradictory statements about physical coercion that do not make sense in context.

I have not asserted that she is lying, nor have I asserted that she was not raped. I have simply asked how in the hell can there be PHYSICAL coercion as she claimed, when she also asserted he did not pin her or threaten violence (or presumably USE violence), yet asserts there was physical coercion.

I'm asking for a phrase that she used in a self-contradictory way to be resolved and explained.
 
Phys251 said:
That happens all the time. Survivors of domestic violence, whether sexual assault is involved or not, often feel trapped and helpless. And police typically give them markedly less attention than they deserve.
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This is simply a falsehood.

The police give them more than adequate attention in fact they are required to make an arrest even if in doubt, the problem is the police are well aware of the dangers of false accusations and what can happen to a person who is fraudulently accused. Therefore the authorities have to have evidence which will allow formal charges and a trial.
Examples of domestic violence accusations which are one persons word against anothers are enormolus and yet they still end up in court where a judge or jury must decide based on NO evidence who is telling the truth. Such a situation is a disgrace to a nation founded on ideals such as innocent until proven guilty and this situation is heavily biased against men which is one more piece of evidence that the patriarchal theory is a myth.
 
opendebate said:
Are you claiming that's what happened?
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Well that's a form of "physical coercion" that doesn't involve violence or threats - and it is the only form of "physical coercion" I can think of that wouldn't involve some type of violence, pinning down or threatening.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
It's hard to get your **** straight when you've been sufficiently traumatized. Depending on the severity of your experience and where you are in the recovery process, sometimes you don't even know where you are or who you're talking to.

I'm not saying I automatically believe her because she said it, I'm just not automatically disregarding her for the same reason the university didn't automatically punish the man she accused.
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Sure, people get their **** confused... in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic incident.

This is, apparently, YEARS later, and she's saying something that doesn't make sense to me.

I was wondering if anybody could explain it. Apparently the answer to that is no.
 
ChrisL said:
Oh so if you say "no" but lie there spread eagle naked on the bed in front of your boyfriend, and he starts touching you and trying to get you in the mood, is that rape in your opinion?
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tumblr_mkf7aud0Le1qheakio1_500.jpg
 
Phys251 said:
I honestly don't know whether you've been trolling me all this time. Seriously, as a woman, I have no idea how you can say the things that you've said. If I were to meet you out in public somewhere, slip a drug into your drink while you weren't looking, and take you home and have sex with you while you were unconscious, then by your logic, that would not be rape. Since it's not rape, you'd probably enjoy it. But even if it were a legitimate rape, then you wouldn't have to worry about getting pregnant. Besides, you were probably asking for it anyway.
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She was not drugged obviously. You are using strawmen. I am going by her own words and description of the situation, in which she clearly states that she was not pinned down or threatened in any way, yet was "physically coerced."

Please give us some examples of this type of "physical coercion" when it involves an adult female of legal age to consent.
 
Phys251 said:
tumblr_mkf7aud0Le1qheakio1_500.jpg
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I'm not saying it was her fault. I'm saying that it doesn't sound as if she raped but rather had consensual sex with a guy that she now thinks is an ass and wants to call it rape.
 
ChrisL said:
Well that's a form of "physical coercion" that doesn't involve violence or threats - and it is the only form of "physical coercion" I can think of that wouldn't involve some type of violence, pinning down or threatening.
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Your response indicates that you are speculating. You don't think that "maybe" the information at hand warrants postponing the dismissal of her claims every bit as much as it warrants jumping to condemning the man she is accusing?
 
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Goshin said:
Sure, people get their **** confused... in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic incident.

This is, apparently, YEARS later, and she's saying something that doesn't make sense to me.

I was wondering if anybody could explain it. Apparently the answer to that is no.
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No one can explain it because it makes no sense.
 
opendebate said:
Your response indicates that you are speculating. You don't think that "maybe" the information at hand warrants postponing the dismissal of her claims every bit as much as it warrants jumping to condemning the man she is accusing?
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Give us some examples of physical coercion on an adult female that don't involve threats or violence please. We are all waiting.
 
stonewall50 said:
Ending rape on campus
Student-led activists movement fights to end rape on campus - CNN.com

Well. I don't know exactly how this makes me feel. I read through the entire article and it is nice to see action. There is a problem and something needs to be done. For that I am happy.

But one of those incidents does not fit in with the rest. Espinosa's. I don't understand how that is rape? Maybe I misread it. But it just struck me somewhere as...odd. And. Maybe. A little bit off. Everyone else can someone explain that to me?
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I would have thought that we had been trying to prevent rape everywhere for ever.
 
Are we to believe that he "tricked her" into having sex with him for 3 years? And, when speaking of an adult female, does that equal rape?
 
ChrisL said:
Give us some examples of physical coercion on an adult female that don't involve threats or violence please. We are all waiting.
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There you go again.
 
Soupnazi630 said:
This is simply a falsehood.

The police give them more than adequate attention in fact they are required to make an arrest even if in doubt, the problem is the police are well aware of the dangers of false accusations and what can happen to a person who is fraudulently accused. Therefore the authorities have to have evidence which will allow formal charges and a trial.
Examples of domestic violence accusations which are one persons word against anothers are enormolus and yet they still end up in court where a judge or jury must decide based on NO evidence who is telling the truth. Such a situation is a disgrace to a nation founded on ideals such as innocent until proven guilty and this situation is heavily biased against men which is one more piece of evidence that the patriarchal theory is a myth.
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You make falsehood after falsehood and then accuse me?! What you say depends on so many things happening in just the right way, particularly that the victim has the nerve to call the police in the first place.
 
Now, if we were talking about a minor, rubbing, touching, kissing, etc, would be considered "physical coercion." However, we are talking about an adult female here.
 
opendebate said:
I think if a woman says no it means no, period. The question is, did she say no. I have no idea. Which, I think, is basically your point. There is a problem from my perspective when someone is so ready to dismiss her without knowing what the coercion involved. This implies that only physical force equals rape. Which is inaccurate.
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As I stated no one disagree's with you that no equals no.

Coercion however is a much more complex word.

I once had a conversation with someone who insisted and military recruiters coerce people into enlisting in the military. This is an absurd position since a recruiter only sells the military much like a car salesman might try to sell you a car whether it is right for you or not.

If someone insists that other wise benign actions are coercion then there is no changing their mind. Most reasonble people would have to hear the details to judge whether it was really coercion or not. For example if an employer offers a promotion in exchange for sex is it blackmail? Of course it is. Is it sexual harrassment? Of couse it is. Is it coercion? Kind of doubtful.
 
Redress said:
Assuming her story is true, physically coercing some one into having sex is going to fall into the category of rape. There is an area that I am not sure exactly how well defined it is in law that is really sticky on the rape question, but physical coercion is pretty definitely rape.
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"Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship."

Hmmm. I'd buy rape once, maybe even twice. After that she's complicit.

The rape charge reminds me of the police investigation of Masaryk's death after the Communist takeover in Czechoslovakia in 1948. His body was found on the street bound and gagged after a fall from an upper story window. Police determined the death was a suicide.:peace
 
ChrisL said:
I'm not saying it was her fault. I'm saying that it doesn't sound as if she raped but rather had consensual sex with a guy that she now thinks is an ass and wants to call it rape.
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How do you know better than the victim herself does? Were you there? Did you see what happened? No? Then kindly be quiet and let her talk.
 
Phys251 said:
You make falsehood after falsehood and then accuse me?! What you say depends on so many things happening in just the right way, particularly that the victim has the nerve to call the police in the first place.
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Nope I am stating facts and yes you are stating falsehoods all over the place.

fact call the police and accuse someone of domestic violence. They will make an arrest. ( unless the victim is a man )
 
opendebate said:
There you go again.
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So . . . if your boyfriend says to you, "if you don't give me a blow job, I'm going to leave you" and you do it, but then he leaves you anyway, is that a form of rape?
 
Phys251 said:
How do you know better than the victim herself does? Were you there? Did you see what happened? No? Then kindly be quiet and let her talk.
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She is not a victim just because she says she is
 
loader said:
But Sandra Fluke like sex! Three or four times per day with different students! And since she's ugly, she just has to rape boys.


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This post is an example of one of the major causes of the problem-the double standard and slut shaming.
 
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