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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

ChrisL said:
This is what she says.



I'm sorry, but she could just be a crazy lady for all we know, and it sounds quite plausible when a person makes contradictory statements such as this.
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Yeah that is what I am not getting...

Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship.
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... so what does she mean 'physically coerced'? Doesn't make sense....
 
Phys251 said:
All that matters is that both parties give informed consent. If one does not, it's rape, period, end of discussion.
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She said there was NO force. Doesn't that mean she gave her consent? Just because she regrets it NOW, doesn't make it rape.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Because she went public with her story.

Yes, actually. We're married and have a couple of kids.

Absolutely true.
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Wow. I hope she has been able to cope and return to some semblance of a normal life.
 
Phys251 said:
OK, 6% false. That coincides with the less-than-10% figure I gave earlier. Many, many rape victims do not go through with the trial because the odds are often stacked hopelessly against them. Many of those reasons can be seen right here in this thread, all of which boil down to not believing what she has to say.
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That is because if tere is no evidence then there is no evidence and if there is no evidence then it is reasonable to conclude she may be lying.

This is why your claim that false accusations are less than 10 % of all accusations is a false claim you wish to assume that an unproven accusation is truthful. They are not by definition. Some of them may be true with no courtroom worthy evidence while others are false but it is impossible to seperate the two objectively. The fact is unless it can be proven we have no way of knowing if it happened and in fact those with an agenda do push for acceptance of any accusation without proof.
 
I hate to resort to this but....

RAPE:
1-the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2-any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Are we actually having the "No really means no" conversation again.
 
Goshin said:
Yeah that is what I am not getting...




... so what does she mean 'physically coerced'? Doesn't make sense....
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That's what I'm wondering, and I have yet to have anyone come forward to give examples of this coercion because I don't think they really get it either. I would think "physical coercion" as a type of "force" yet she states there was no force.
 
ChrisL said:
Give me some examples please because I honestly cannot think of any reasonable examples of this.
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I imagine that being beaten, choked, slapped around, or being threatened with a weapon all qualify as physical coercion -- and that's just off the top of my head.

To intercept your inevitable question, why didn't she include those details in her account to CNN if she's telling the truth, the first explanation that comes to mind is that it was too painful for her to recount in detail.
 
opendebate said:
I hate to resort to this but....

RAPE:
1-the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Are we actually having the "No really means no" conversation again.
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She said NO FORCE. So now explain it.
 
Phys251 said:
Many, many rape victims do not go through with the trial because the odds are often stacked hopelessly against them. Many of those reasons can be seen right here in this thread, all of which boil down to not believing what she has to say.
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I can just as easily claim they didn't go through with the prosecution because they new their false allegations would be found out. But I don't like simply making **** up. So, my fact still remains: the number of false allegations, when compared to the number of investigations that actually go to trial, account for a much more significant number than what your earlier link suggested
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I imagine that being beaten, choked, slapped around, or being threatened with a weapon all qualify as physical coercion -- and that's just off the top of my head.

To intercept your inevitable question, why didn't she include those details in her account to CNN if she's telling the truth, the first explanation that comes to mind is that it was too painful for her to recount in detail.
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That's force. Being beaten into submission is force. Being threatened with your life is FORCE.
 
ChrisL said:
She said there was NO force. Doesn't that mean she gave her consent? Just because she regrets it NOW, doesn't make it rape.
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Step 1: Go to the first page of this thread.
Step 2: Find the OP and click on the link.
Step 3: READ.

The "we weren't there, so we can't know what happened" defense works for rape apologists no more than it does for creationists (paging Ken Ham). I would much rather take the victim's word for what happened than I trust an armchair quarterback.
 
So what? He made her horny and want sex? Maybe that's her definition of "physical coercion" and "rape."
 
Phys251 said:
Wow. I hope she has been able to cope and return to some semblance of a normal life.
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She has her good days and her bad days, like everyone else. She also addressed groups of students where she went to college, sharing her experiences so that they'd know they weren't alone and to encourage them to get help. They asked her questions and she thought it was reasonable for them to do so for the same reasons.
 
Phys251 said:
Step 1: Go to the first page of this thread.
Step 2: Find the OP and click on the link.
Step 3: READ.

The "we weren't there, so we can't know what happened" defense works for rape apologists no more than it does for creationists (paging Ken Ham). I would much rather take the victim's word for what happened than I trust an armchair quarterback.
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I already quoted the section multiple times, as have others, where she states she was never forced into having sex with her boyfriend of 3 years.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I imagine that being beaten, choked, slapped around, or being threatened with a weapon all qualify as physical coercion -- and that's just off the top of my head.

To intercept your inevitable question, why didn't she include those details in her account to CNN if she's telling the truth, the first explanation that comes to mind is that it was too painful for her to recount in detail.
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She said he didn't pin her down or threaten violence, her words. If she says he didn't THREATEN violence, I think it is safe to assume he didn't CONDUCT actual violence either.

That pretty much leaves out most of what you listed, and leaves me wondering again, what does she mean by "physical coercion' when she seems to be excluding most of what I would think of as such.


I don't know, I'm just asking because on the face of it, it seems contradictory.
 
opendebate said:
I hate to resort to this but....

RAPE:
1-the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2-any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Are we actually having the "No really means no" conversation again.
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Possible trigger warning (hell, this whole damn thread needs a trigger warning):

 
Here it is again. It clearly states he hadn't pinned her down AND he hadn't even threatened her with violence!

Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship.
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So HOW do you "physically coerce" someone into having sex against their will without the use of force? And HOW does that equal rape?
 
Phys251 said:
Good, and I hope those changes go into effect. Anti-woman attitudes such as the ones infesting this thread are the first problems that need to go.
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Why do you keep avoiding addressing the content of my posts: that the nature of her advocacy makes the validity of her allegations "our business"?

And boo-hoo, am I supposed to feel sorry for a rapist? Kind of like the Steubenville, OH and Marysville, MO rapists?
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lol, you do not even know if her allegations are true and I never suggested you needed to feel sorry for anyone
 
Phys251 said:
Possible trigger warning (hell, this whole damn thread needs a trigger warning):
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Again, the woman said there was no force or even THREATS of violence. Since you are so gung-ho to call this rape, please give us some examples of physical coercion that are used on an adult woman for sex that are not related to the use of force or threats.
 
Goshin said:
She said he didn't pin her down or threaten violence, her words. If she says he didn't THREATEN violence, I think it is safe to assume he didn't CONDUCT actual violence either.

That pretty much leaves out most of what you listed, and leaves me wondering again, what does she mean by "physical coercion' when she seems to be excluding most of what I would think of as such.


I don't know, I'm just asking because on the face of it, it seems contradictory.
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I realize you think that's a safe assumption to make, but I also know from experience that when someone talks about something that traumatic, they don't always choose the best phrasing -- especially if they disassociate in the middle of the discussion. ChrisL asked for examples of physical coercion, and I supplied a few. For all I know, it could've been repeatedly throwing her down on the bed.
 
ChrisL said:
I already quoted the section multiple times, as have others, where she states she was never forced into having sex with her boyfriend of 3 years.
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So, no, you didn't read the article. Because you would have found the answer in the first three paragraphs.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Why do you keep avoiding addressing the content of my posts: that the nature of her advocacy makes the validity of her allegations "our business"?



lol, you do not even know if her allegations are true and I never suggested you needed to feel sorry for anyone
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The posts are childish, especially considering the subject matter, not to mention he makes no effort to back his claim that this is rape, just tosses insults around.
 
ChrisL said:
She said NO FORCE. So now explain it.
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No PHYSICAL force. But perhaps DURESS (the use of force, false imprisonment or threats (and possibly psychological torture or "brainwashing") to compel someone to act contrary to his/her wishes or interests).

I am merely trying to make the point that it can be considered rape without the use of physical force. Psychological torture or coercion can also make it rape. As for this case I don't know enough of the specifics about what this woman experienced to claim that rape did occur but neither do I know enough right now to just dismiss her claims.
 
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