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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

It is easy to judge on the outside, but it has been my experience that it is not always easy for some people to leave relationships. Both my sisters spent years in abusive relationships. We told them again and again that they needed to get out. They where convinced they loved the person however, and that things could be repaired.

That still does not make it right to blame the investigators or those that advised leaving/reporting the abuse in a timely manner. Rather than concentrate on blaming the investigators, she should instead advise others not to endure abuse as she did and seek help immediately. To help end something, like abusive relationships or date rape, one must act quickly and decisively, not wait years to decide that help is needed.
 
Another significant issue that a friend reading over my shoulder brought up: consider the implications on the young man she dated. My friend is trying to hire a bunch of employees right now for summer work and one thing he does is check Facebook. Like many employers.

Now consider that this kid's name is attached to hers and now she is in the news. National news, and with the Internet that really just means global. He is now a convicted rapist without a trial. Good job CNN.

You know as I have gotten older...and the Internet/social media has too...I am starting to realize how bad it actually is.
 
Which is why I made my further point that without more information, it is impossible to judge. Physical coercion however does rise to the level of rape, which is her claim.

really depends on her definition of coercion. By some statements I read concerning the subject, that could be as little as giving a massage to your partner with the intent of getting them into the mood.
 
It is easy to judge on the outside, but it has been my experience that it is not always easy for some people to leave relationships. Both my sisters spent years in abusive relationships. We told them again and again that they needed to get out. They where convinced they loved the person however, and that things could be repaired.

And that is my rub I think. If it were an abusive relationship ok. But we don't know. Cnn convicted this kid without the whole story.
 
Sorry, being the sadist that you are, I thought you might like it. :2razz:
Damn, and I'm the sadist? Giving it, Chris. Not receiving. :lol:

I should have mentioned that even stat rape necessitates actual sex in order to qualify.
 
Another significant issue that a friend reading over my shoulder brought up: consider the implications on the young man she dated. My friend is trying to hire a bunch of employees right now for summer work and one thing he does is check Facebook. Like many employers.

Now consider that this kid's name is attached to hers and now she is in the news. National news, and with the Internet that really just means global. He is now a convicted rapist without a trial. Good job CNN.

You know as I have gotten older...and the Internet/social media has too...I am starting to realize how bad it actually is.
The media are scum. Don't worry, though. They're going down too.
 
That still does not make it right to blame the investigators or those that advised leaving/reporting the abuse in a timely manner. Rather than concentrate on blaming the investigators, she should instead advise others not to endure abuse as she did and seek help immediately. To help end something, like abusive relationships or date rape, one must act quickly and decisively, not wait years to decide that help is needed.

I am not blaming any one. Whether the investigation was done right or not I have no way of judging. She could be absolutely correct that the investigation was poorly done. I think we should stop jumping to conclusions about one case.
 
really depends on her definition of coercion. By some statements I read concerning the subject, that could be as little as giving a massage to your partner with the intent of getting them into the mood.
Hell, it could be a bunch of flowers on Valentine's Day.
 
really depends on her definition of coercion. By some statements I read concerning the subject, that could be as little as giving a massage to your partner with the intent of getting them into the mood.

Without knowing what is being referred to in this case it is impossible to judge.
 
And that is my rub I think. If it were an abusive relationship ok. But we don't know. Cnn convicted this kid without the whole story.

CNN did not give the kids name...
 
Ending rape on campus
Student-led activists movement fights to end rape on campus - CNN.com

Well. I don't know exactly how this makes me feel. I read through the entire article and it is nice to see action. There is a problem and something needs to be done. For that I am happy.

But one of those incidents does not fit in with the rest. Espinosa's. I don't understand how that is rape? Maybe I misread it. But it just struck me somewhere as...odd. And. Maybe. A little bit off. Everyone else can someone explain that to me?

Ending rape on campus is like a war on drugs or a war on poverty or like many of the laws passed in recent years with a misleading name attached.

From a moral or philosophical perspective ending rape anywhere is always a good idea. But of course it cannot be done there will always be another scum bag who rapes someone. The problem is when unintended consequences arise ( and they always do ) no one will accept accountability for it because they had such a self righteous cause ( ending rape ).

Any person who attempts to study this with an eye to being objective and perhaps being critical of the effort will be labeled as a rape defender or mysoginest or whatever. For example it is VERY typical for people attempting to address rape to exaggerate the statistics on this crime. Some have a vested interest in painting the picture that there are more such crimes than there truly are. Such exaggerations lead to unjust and draconian laws or policies on campus which do more harm than good ( the violence against women act is an example ). When those fighting against rape point out that some rapes go unreported ( which is true ) they will try to ignore that many accusations of rape are fraudulent and do as much or more harm to a person as rape itself. Yes even that statement is not allowed even though it is true. False accusations of rape can cause as much pain and harm ( or more ) as actual rape.

No one is defending rape or trying to ignore the crime but the fact is often these sort of " movements " have other agendas and do more harm than good. As others on this thread have pointed out such people are often trying to expand the definition or rape which of course makes more crime than there is.
 
I just love how every single discussion about rape or sexual assault quickly turns into questioning the accuser's motives and not addressing the horrors of the crime. They're the only crimes where this is such a major issue.

Stop trying to justify what her boyfriend did. If there was no informed consent, yet intercourse occurred, it was rape. Period.
 
I am not blaming any one. Whether the investigation was done right or not I have no way of judging. She could be absolutely correct that the investigation was poorly done. I think we should stop jumping to conclusions about one case.

But is it jumping to conclusions? There was no trial and cnn effectively called him a rapist...
 
Ending Rape On Campus

I just love how every single discussion about rape or sexual assault quickly turns into questioning the accuser's motives and not addressing the horrors of the crime. They're the only crimes where this is such a major issue.

Stop trying to justify what her boyfriend did. If there was no informed consent, yet intercourse occurred, it was rape. Period.

So what you are saying is we should just screw innocent until proven guilty, if a woman brings up allegations of rape...we should believe her...and convict the accused of rape. No trial.

Nobody is questioning the motives of the other victims in this thread. But the woman under discussion was in a relationship with this guy for 3 years, admitted he never pinned her down/assaulted her, and her only claim is he physically and verbally coerced her into sex. A very broadly defined definition.

We have very little information, and yet cnn just convicted this guy without investigation or trial. He has pretty much no future now where he is not considered a rapist.

Edit:

Ps

I am all for victims rights and I would bring a death penalty for rapists in cases of significant evidence. So I am far from being some "pro rape blame the victim" but bag. But I do believe we shouldn't try to bring restitution for past cases where the victim was treated as if it were there fault...via conviction of anyone accused of rape and damning the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
 
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I just love how every single discussion about rape or sexual assault quickly turns into questioning the accuser's motives and not addressing the horrors of the crime. They're the only crimes where this is such a major issue.
There was no crime. That's kinda the point. Motive is central to the issue.

Stop trying to justify what her boyfriend did. If there was no informed consent, yet intercourse occurred, it was rape. Period.
Well, not since he didn't actually rape her. There's that. This guy won't do any jail time. Why do you suppose that is? Or has rape suddenly been made legal?
 
There was no crime. That's kinda the point. Motive is central to the issue.


Well, not since he didn't actually rape her. There's that. This guy won't do any jail time. Why do you suppose that is? Or has rape suddenly been made legal?

Apparently we now have to sign witnessed documentation before intercourse...
 
So what you are saying is we should just screw innocent until proven guilty, if a woman brings up allegations of rape...we should believe her...and convict the accused of rape. No trial.

That is not at all what I said. Don't insert words into my mouth. All I want is for sexual assault and rape victims to have their stories given the same deference as victims of arson, burglary, robbery, and other crimes. I find it fascinating that sexual crimes are treated differently in this regard, and I ask myself, why is that?

Nobody is questioning the motives of the other victims in this thread. But the woman under discussion was in a relationship with this guy for 3 years, admitted he never pinned her down/assaulted her, and her only claim is he physically and verbally coerced her into sex. A very broadly defined definition.

We have very little information, and yet cnn just convicted this guy without investigation or trial. He has pretty much no future now where he is not considered a rapist.

Edit:

Ps

I am all for victims rights and I would bring a death penalty for rapists in cases of significant evidence. So I am far from being some "pro rape blame the victim" but bag. But I do believe we shouldn't try to bring restitution for past cases where the victim was treated as if it were there fault...via conviction of anyone accused of rape and damning the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

When someone claims to have been the victim of a crime, I believe them unless I have a legitimate reason to not do so. This is not the same thing as guilty until proven innocent. Humans are not required to send every idea they have to a court of law to judge whether that idea is legit.
 
There was no crime. That's kinda the point. Motive is central to the issue.

And you know this how? You have studied this case and concluded that there definitely was no rape?

Well, not since he didn't actually rape her. There's that. This guy won't do any jail time. Why do you suppose that is? Or has rape suddenly been made legal?

What is the current FBI definition of rape?
 
That is not at all what I said. Don't insert words into my mouth. All I want is for sexual assault and rape victims to have their stories given the same deference as victims of arson, burglary, robbery, and other crimes. I find it fascinating that sexual crimes are treated differently in this regard, and I ask myself, why is that?
It's a little difficult to deny the evidence of a burning building. lulz

When someone claims to have been the victim of a crime, I believe them unless I have a legitimate reason to not do so. This is not the same thing as guilty until proven innocent. Humans are not required to send every idea they have to a court of law to judge whether that idea is legit.
They are if they're claiming illegality.
 
And you know this how? You have studied this case and concluded that there definitely was no rape?
We know there was no physical coercion. She admits as much. Ergo, no rape.

What is the current FBI definition of rape?
No idea. Enlighten me.
 
I just love how every single discussion about rape or sexual assault quickly turns into questioning the accuser's motives and not addressing the horrors of the crime. They're the only crimes where this is such a major issue.

Stop trying to justify what her boyfriend did. If there was no informed consent, yet intercourse occurred, it was rape. Period.

No one is attempting to justify rape period.

The fact s many women falsely accuse men or rape which is just as bad and painful ( or worse ) than rape. Yet very seldom are such women punished. Notice how less than half of alleged rape victims consent to a rape test kit. In such cases it becomes his word against hers and a persons word is never valid reason to imprison someone.

We question her ( and his ) motives as you put it because the accused enjoy's the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty and he or she should enjoy that right regardless of the crime.

The problem with the crime of rape is that it IS easy to create a false or fake accusation and there are many motives for doing so. The same is true for assault ( read domestic violence ). People have a hard time falsely accusing someone of murder when there is no dead body. Or falsely accusing someone of theft when there is no missing property. Rape and assault however are very easy to fake when it is one persons word against another and the " victim " need only cry and appear traumatized to win the conviction in the court of public opinion.

No one is justifying rape stop trying to justify witch hunts against man.
 
It's a little difficult to deny the evidence of a burning building. lulz

Or of rape. The allegation that women tend to lie about rape is the real lie.

Besides, maybe someone "asked for it" and thus got their home burned down?

They are if they're claiming illegality.

Holy crap, do you realize what you just said? If one of your friends who has no known history of lying claims to have been the victim of a serious crime, and you have no way of knowing what happened other than his or her description of the situation, would you be more likely to (1) offer comfort and support, or (2) ask tough questions to make sure she or he was really telling the truth? Hint: Only a complete dick would pick #2.
 
We know there was no physical coercion. She admits as much. Ergo, no rape.

1. If you really believe that no physical coercion => definitely no rape, then you do not understand what consent is.
2. Did you even read the story? The second paragraph says:

"Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship."​

No idea. Enlighten me.

The FBI's definition of rape is “the penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
 
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