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Ending Rape On Campus[W 228]

TacticalEvilDan said:
Let's compare apples to apples. If I publicly addressed a group of people about how I asked my boss for a personal day and he refused, it's reasonable for me to be asked why I asked for the personal day or how I asked for it. You can't go public about something and then claim a right to privacy on that very same something.

Now, if she'd gone public about being refused a personal day and then someone demanded to know the details of her rape, that would be inappropriate.
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The reason why I brought up the personal-day analogy is that in most cases, whatever the person is dealing with is nowhere nearly as traumatic as rape. It is exceedingly cruel to demand that a rape survivor share the details of that horrible moment. And that's not to mention that we live in a society that is still quite repressed about sexuality.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Physical coercion is force. She said she was physically coerced, ergo she said she was forced.
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Are there any details available on what exactly she means by "physically coerced"? People say things, and they don't always mean what it sounds like they mean... :shrug:
 
Soupnazi630 said:
The key word is " claims ".
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Oh of course. Because, hey, there's a 2-5% chance that she's wrong, and any good betting man would bet on those kind of odds. Give me a break.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
She's using the crime to push advocacy on a public level. Of course people have every right and need to question such an allegation. because it now has a direct impact on their lives.
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If so, then more power to her. Our society NEEDS to break the silence on what is quite possibly its single most underrated social ill.
 
Phys251 said:
The reason why I brought up the personal-day analogy is that in most cases, whatever the person is dealing with is nowhere nearly as traumatic as rape. It is exceedingly cruel to demand that a rape survivor share the details of that horrible moment. And that's not to mention that we live in a society that is still quite repressed about sexuality.
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I agree, but if you're going to talk to the public about your experience, I don't think there's anyone wrong with asking for the details.
 
This thread is moving fast, so apologies if I miss your post. That, and I have stuff to take care of later today.
 
Phys251 said:
Puh-lease. Rape apologists have manufactured an entire system of myths, many of which are listed in that source and that you almost certainly didn't read--to maintain the system of oppression of women. They won't listen to the survivors, because that would threaten the very system that gives them their power over women.
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Uh wrong.

There are no rape apologists in this forum, I am sure you could point toward uncivilized sub - cultures such as those engaging in honor killings as evidence but those are fringe sub - cultures for a reason.

The norm is not the claims you are making. Rape is a heinous crime and most reasonable people agree with this. The mythology of the patriarchy however deliberately ignores the real power base of women oppressing men by labeling all of them as potential rapists and repeating the proven false claims of rape myths which do not exist.

I did read your source and it is an illegitimate unreliable pile of nonsense which repeats what has never been fact.

FeministTheory.jpg
 
Goshin said:
Are there any details available on what exactly she means by "physically coerced"? People say things, and they don't always mean what it sounds like they mean... :shrug:
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Not that I've been able to find, and I've definitely been looking.




Edited because my hands were moving slower than my brain.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
That that I've been able to find, and I've definitely been looking.
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This is what she says.

Yes, he was her boyfriend. No, he hadn't pinned her down, or threatened violence. But Espinosa insists that he coerced her, psychologically and physically, into having sex against her will for most of their three-year relationship.
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I'm sorry, but she could just be a crazy lady for all we know, and it sounds quite plausible when a person makes contradictory statements such as this.
 
Phys251 said:
Oh of course. Because, hey, there's a 2-5% chance that she's wrong, and any good betting man would bet on those kind of odds. Give me a break.
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Wrong the odds are 50%/50% she is lying
 
Phys251 said:
Puh-lease. Rape apologists have manufactured an entire system of myths, many of which are listed in that source and that you almost certainly didn't read--to maintain the system of oppression of women. They won't listen to the survivors, because that would threaten the very system that gives them their power over women.
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actually he has a point on the claims your source makes on false rape allegations:

<<<Of the 136 cases of sexual assault 8 (5.9%) were coded as false reports, 61 (44.9%) did not proceed to any prosecution or disciplinary action, 48 (35.3%) were referred for prosecution or disciplinary action, and 19 (13.9%) contained insufficient information to be coded>>>

If you look at the data, very few rape allegations can be determined to be worth prosecuting or determined to be false, with most having an "undecided" factor to them. So when we simply compare the numbers determined as false (5.9%) to those prosecuted (13.9%) and where guilt wasn't even determined yet. The number of false allegations tend to stand out to a much greater degree and account for half the allegations that make it as far as prosecution

http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I agree, but if you're going to talk to the public about your experience, I don't think there's anyone wrong with asking for the details.
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Why? Why do we have any right to know? Have you ever had a rape/sexual assault survivor tell you her story, in detail? I don't mean just bits and pieces, such as "he did X on Y date at Z location. I mean the full story, in every detail she can remember, from start to finish. Let me tell you right now, if you are ever trusted enough to hear such an account, and you do hear such an account, then you will never look at sexual assault the same way again.
 
ChrisL said:
This is what she says.



I'm sorry, but she could just be a crazy lady for all we know, and it sounds quite plausible when a person makes contradictory statements such as this.
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She doesn't contradict herself. She says that while she wasn't pinned or threatened, she was physically coerced. That's force.
 
Phys251 said:
If so, then more power to her. Our society NEEDS to break the silence on what is quite possibly its single most underrated social ill.
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lol, why did you just skip addressing the issue of questioning her allegations, since she made them public?
 
Phys251 said:
This thread is moving fast, so apologies if I miss your post. That, and I have stuff to take care of later today.
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I'll bet that you think that if a man tells a woman he loves her (or vice versa) but really doesn't and has sex anyway, because that sex occurred on the basis of a lie, then that is a form of rape too.
 
Phys251 said:
Why? Why do we have any right to know?
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Because she went public with her story.

Phys251 said:
Have you ever had a rape/sexual assault survivor tell you her story, in detail? I don't mean just bits and pieces, such as "he did X on Y date at Z location. I mean the full story, in every detail she can remember, from start to finish.
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Yes, actually. We're married and have a couple of kids.

Phys251 said:
Let me tell you right now, if you are ever trusted enough to hear such an account, and you do hear such an account, then you will never look at sexual assault the same way again.
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Absolutely true.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
actually he has a point on the claims your source makes on false rape allegations:

<<<Of the 136 cases of sexual assault 8 (5.9%) were coded as false reports, 61 (44.9%) did not proceed to any prosecution or disciplinary action, 48 (35.3%) were referred for prosecution or disciplinary action, and 19 (13.9%) contained insufficient information to be coded>>>

If you look at the data, very few rape allegations can be determined to be worth prosecuting or determined to be false, with most having an "undecided" factor to them. So when we simply compare the numbers determined as false (5.9%) to those prosecuted (13.9%) and where guilt wasn't even determined yet. The number of false allegations tend to stand out to a much greater degree
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OK, 6% false. That coincides with the less-than-10% figure I gave earlier. Many, many rape victims do not go through with the trial because the odds are often stacked hopelessly against them. Many of those reasons can be seen right here in this thread, all of which boil down to not believing what she has to say.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
She doesn't contradict herself. She says that while she wasn't pinned or threatened, she was physically coerced. That's force.
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Give me some examples please because I honestly cannot think of any reasonable examples of this.
 
Phys251 said:
Why? Why do we have any right to know? Have you ever had a rape/sexual assault survivor tell you her story, in detail? I don't mean just bits and pieces, such as "he did X on Y date at Z location. I mean the full story, in every detail she can remember, from start to finish. Let me tell you right now, if you are ever trusted enough to hear such an account, and you do hear such an account, then you will never look at sexual assault the same way again.
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The same emotional plea can be said for any man who'se life has been destroyed by a false accusation.

Such emotional response proves nothing
 
Phys251 said:
Why? Why do we have any right to know?
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Because she made the issue public and is using it to push for changes to how our culture and society operates. Thus, her allegation, and it's validity, has a direct impact on him and everyone else.
 
ChrisL said:
I'll bet that you think that if a man tells a woman he loves her (or vice versa) but really doesn't and has sex anyway, because that sex occurred on the basis of a lie, then that is a form of rape too.
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All that matters is that both parties give informed consent. If one does not, it's rape, period, end of discussion.
 
ChrisL said:
Well since I'm not "Mr. Akin?" Whoever that is, I guess you must have mistakenly quoted my post.
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He was the GOP Senate nominee who said that "legitimate rape" rarely causes to pregnancy. Come on....that was funny.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Because she made the issue public and is using it to push for changes to how our culture and society operates. Thus, her allegation, and it's validity, has a direct impact on him and everyone else.
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Good, and I hope those changes go into effect. Anti-woman attitudes such as the ones infesting this thread are the first problems that need to go. And boo-hoo, am I supposed to feel sorry for a rapist? Kind of like the Steubenville, OH and Marysville, MO rapists?
 
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