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Amanda Knox found guilty of murder again by Italian Court

solletica said:
It's because the US has more open immigration laws. If the Netherlands, Finland, or Iceland had similar immigration laws, they would go there instead.
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Uh wrong.

It is easier to immigrate there. Just that no one wants to they would rather come here.
 
solletica said:
It's also no longer enforced in the US.
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Really?

Did we stop having elections?

Did the House of representatives stop writing, voting on and passing fiscal bills?

Did The Supreme court decisions all get ignored?

Did we have churches banned or newspapers or guns?

I realize parts have been adapted such as war powers but it is still law of the land followed and enforced.
 
A good ruling by the Italian appeals court. It was never finalized by the Supreme Court of Italy, which is required by their law, so double jeopardy is out for Amanda Knox as a defense. Having followed this for several years now, it is obvious she and her boyfriend almost got away with murder, and were happy to leave the one young African man to take the rap alone. It may take some time, but there is nothing in US law that should keep her from being extradited.
 
SayMyName said:
A good ruling by the Italian appeals court. It was never finalized by the Supreme Court of Italy, which is required by their law, so double jeopardy is out for Amanda Knox as a defense. Having followed this for several years now, it is obvious she and her boyfriend almost got away with murder, and were happy to leave the one young African man to take the rap alone. It may take some time, but there is nothing in US law that should keep her from being extradited.
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Really? Obvious, was it? What exactly was the evidence against them? You know, the forensics, the DNA, the blood spatter on their clothing, the fiber evidence, the witnesses, their bloody fingerprints on the murder weapon? Everything I've ever read about that case says that there isn't a single iota of physical evidence connecting them to the crime beyond the fact that a prosecutor who was himself tried for misconduct basically felt in his gut that they had done it. That, and she was an American.
 
Andalublue said:
How do you explain the fact that her co-defendant, convicted on exactly the same evidence, was Italian?
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Perhaps you can answer what the actual physical evidence against them was. I'm not the brightest porchlight on the block when it comes to global jurisprudence, but most western courts of law do actually require more than the prosecutor's gut instinct to convict someone of murder. According to everything I've read and seen, the only thing everyone seems to agree on is that there was no physical evidence whatsoever.

Also, why wasn't her co-defendant's conviction also overturned on appeal? Why wasn't he released at the same time she was? None of what the Italian courts have done makes any sense whatsoever to me.
 
Wiggen said:
So its Switzerland that refuses to extradite him? And here I thought it was France. Huh! Those newspapers must have it all wrong. Polanski is about as French as I am.
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Switzerland detained him on the warrant issued by the US but refused to extradite him and released him - he returned to France - the French refuse to even detain him. Polanski had dual French/American citizenship at the time of the crime. If you have dual French/American citizenship, then yes, you're as French as Polanski is.
 
DiAnna said:
Perhaps you can answer what the actual physical evidence against them was. I'm not the brightest porchlight on the block when it comes to global jurisprudence, but most western courts of law do actually require more than the prosecutor's gut instinct to convict someone of murder. According to everything I've read and seen, the only thing everyone seems to agree on is that there was no physical evidence whatsoever.
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No, I can't give you a summary of the evidence. I'm sure that info must be available somewhere, but that's not really the issue. The issue is that this conviction has been handed down by the Court of Cassation, which is the highest court of last resort in the Italian criminal justice system. It comprises 5 senior judges and its decisions are not subject to jury decision. Those 5 learned judges must have been mindful of something more than the prosecutor's gut instinct.

It's been a pig's ear of a case from start to finish. That doesn't necessarily mean that the final outcome (we haven't reached that point yet, btw) will inevitably give the wrong verdict. I certainly think you can discount the idea that this has something to do with anti-Americanism - the US really isn't as unpopular in Europe as all of you here seem to believe you are - and do you really believe the highest criminal court in the land would perjure itself in order to deal a blow against the Yankees?

Also, why wasn't her co-defendant's conviction also overturned on appeal? Why wasn't he released at the same time she was? None of what the Italian courts have done makes any sense whatsoever to me.
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He was. He was acquitted and released at exactly the same time as Knox. He was only rearrested the day before yesterday as he was, apparently, making his way to the Austrian border.
 
DiAnna said:
But the US should extradite their own citizens? That's rather a double standard, don't you think? :lol:
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Never said that. France has no extradition treaty as far as I know, but Italy does.
 
Andalublue said:
No, I can't give you a summary of the evidence. I'm sure that info must be available somewhere, but that's not really the issue. The issue is that this conviction has been handed down by the Court of Cassation, which is the highest court of last resort in the Italian criminal justice system. It comprises 5 senior judges and its decisions are not subject to jury decision. Those 5 learned judges must have been mindful of something more than the prosecutor's gut instinct.
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"Must have been mindful of something more than the prosecutor's gut instinct." And yet, nobody can seem to tell anyone exactly what they were mindful of. As much media scrutiny as this has had, not a single source has been able to report a single shred of physical evidence against these people. It all boils down to the fact that the two of them did not act the way innocent people should act, according to Italian police and prosecutors.

It's been a pig's ear of a case from start to finish. That doesn't necessarily mean that the final outcome (we haven't reached that point yet, btw) will inevitably give the wrong verdict. I certainly think you can discount the idea that this has something to do with anti-Americanism - the US really isn't as unpopular in Europe as all of you here seem to believe you are - and do you really believe the highest criminal court in the land would perjure itself in order to deal a blow against the Yankees?
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I have no idea. I have learned from reading this thread that many from across the pond seem to believe that if the US doesn't extradite its own citizen to a judicial proceeding that is literally considered to be double jeopardy under our own judicial system, that a great many Europeans will have their noses out of joint. And still, not a single soul can tell me or anyone else what actual physical evidence connects these people to the crime, and what "new evidence" was presented at their "in absentia trial". At this point, it seems to a lot of Americans to be an exercise in international face-saving by the Italians, who have by nearly all accounts totally screwed the pooch on this case, and botched it royally from the very first moments of the investigation. :shrug:

If she did it, ship her back to Italy and we'll see her in 30 years. But first, be so kind as to provide at least a modicum of actual evidence that she committed the crime. That's pretty much the most common American view of this silliness.
 
DiAnna said:
"Must have been mindful of something more than the prosecutor's gut instinct." And yet, nobody can seem to tell anyone exactly what they were mindful of. As much media scrutiny as this has had, not a single source has been able to report a single shred of physical evidence against these people. It all boils down to the fact that the two of them did not act the way innocent people should act, according to Italian police and prosecutors.
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I'm digging around, but I can't find much. I don't know whether the judges' deliberations will be made public, but that would help.

I have learned from reading this thread that many from across the pond seem to believe that if the US doesn't extradite its own citizen to a judicial proceeding that is literally considered to be double jeopardy under our own judicial system, that a great many Europeans will have their noses out of joint.
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I don't think it's a question of noses out of joint. It's more that if one has an extradition treaty in place, one should abide by it...or ditch it.

On the double jeopardy issue, I've already stated that I don't think this is one. This latest verdict is the result of the appeal process from the original indictment, hence no new evidence needed. The judges would have made their decision on the basis of their assessment of the conduct of the original trial and subsequent appeal. Despite the unconstitutional nature of double jeopardy in the US judicial system, I've shown in previous posts that the same process that has just happened in Italy could happen in the US - it is entirely feasible that an acquittal may be set aside and a retrial ordered. That's not double jeopardy.

At this point, it seems to a lot of Americans to be an exercise in international face-saving by the Italians, who have by nearly all accounts totally screwed the pooch on this case, and botched it royally from the very first moments of the investigation. :shrug:
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Oh, I think there's an awful lot of that going on, and you don't have to be an American to recognise it. They effed up big time.

If she did it, ship her back to Italy and we'll see her in 30 years. But first, be so kind as to provide at least a modicum of actual evidence that she committed the crime. That's pretty much the most common American view of this silliness.
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It's true the Italian authorities aren't going out of their way to make public their case. Transparency isn't seen as a virtue in many jurisdictions, and their priority now is probably not doing some PR job with the American public, hence I would expect people to push for non-compliance with any extradition move.

Of course this is all muddied a bit by the ongoing disquiet that many Europeans feel about the perception that the extradition treaties between the US and its European friends are badly skewed in favour of US interests, rather than seeking equal treatment. There are arguments to be made both ways. I don't believe however that the outcome of this trial is being determined by any anti-American bias. As I pointed out, her co-defendant, who received exactly the same treatment and verdicts from each of the three hearings, was not American.
 
It should be noted that Cross contamination was ruled out by DNA Experts and the Italian Courts, and that there is significant DNA evidence therefore against Knox, who also continually changed her story during questioning including initially suggesting she was there and heard Meredith's scream to being far away from the scene with somebody else. At the police station after the murder she did cartwheels, smiled and kissed her boyfriend and has remained a very strange character through out. I also don't blame Meredith's Brother and Sister for wanting her extradited back to Italy if she is found guilty in the final appeal process.

The Murder of Meredith Kercher

True Justice For Meredith Kercher

The real victims in this case are Meredith's family in Britain, who will never see their much loved daughter and sister again. Although this is often forgotten. :(

 
Andalublue said:
He was. He was acquitted and released at exactly the same time as Knox. He was only rearrested the day before yesterday as he was, apparently, making his way to the Austrian border.
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It turns out he was visiting his current girlfriend. He willingly handed in his passport.
 
TurtleDude said:
I can only speak to the federal system; The federal public defender's office in Cincinnati had some of the best trial attorneys in the entire district.
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Maybe so, but you were commenting on the entire italian justice system, and most american defendants are not tried in federal court or have federal attorneys appointed to them.
 
I submit that if Amanda Knox herself would enter each of her stories (as she changed them more than her panties) as separate entries into this thread, it would be well over 80 pages by now. Funny how people demonize the justice system of other countries and assume she is innocent just because she's good looking and an American.
 
There is a prejudice at work here, but anti-Americanism it's not. People are titillated by the hypothetical bitchy femme fatale character in Knox. Reason why Guede who we know beyond a shadow of a fact raped the victim and the Italian boyfriend get close to zero media coverage.

There is very little physical evidence pointing Knox's way. All there is Mereith's DNA on Solletica's knife, which wasn't allowed to be matched to the wounds on the body. All we have is changing testimonies which have been assumed on one side to be an indication of guilt and another to be an indication of language barriers and police strong arming. Not really enough proof by any standard.
 
Ben K. said:
There is a prejudice at work here, but anti-Americanism it's not. People are titillated by the hypothetical bitchy femme fatale character in Knox. Reason why Guede who we know beyond a shadow of a fact raped the victim and the Italian boyfriend get close to zero media coverage.

There is very little physical evidence pointing Knox's way. All there is Mereith's DNA on Solletica's knife, which wasn't allowed to be matched to the wounds on the body. All we have is changing testimonies which have been assumed on one side to be an indication of guilt and another to be an indication of language barriers and police strong arming. Not really enough proof by any standard.
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That...was like reading the evidence but changed by Chinese whispers.
 
Viv said:
That...was like reading the evidence but changed by Chinese whispers.
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It should be noted that Cross contamination was ruled out by DNA Experts and the Italian Courts, and that there is significant DNA evidence therefore against Knox, who also continually changed her story during questioning including initially suggesting she was there and heard Meredith's scream to being far away from the scene with somebody else. At the police station after the murder she did cartwheels, smiled and kissed her boyfriend and has remained a very strange character through out. I also don't blame Meredith's Brother and Sister for wanting her extradited back to Italy if she is found guilty in the final appeal process.

The real victims in this case are Meredith's family in Britain, who will never see their much loved daughter and sister again. Although this is often forgotten. :(

The Murder of Meredith Kercher

True Justice For Meredith Kercher

Amanda Knox Weeps And Vows To 'Fight Till End'

 
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Chatter said:
It should be noted that Cross contamination was ruled out by DNA Experts and the Italian Courts, and that there is significant DNA evidence therefore against Knox, who also continually changed her story during questioning including initially suggesting she was there and heard Meredith's scream to being far away from the scene with somebody else. At the police station after the murder she did cartwheels, smiled and kissed her boyfriend and has remained a very strange character through out. I also don't blame Meredith's Brother and Sister for wanting her extradited back to Italy if she is found guilty in the final appeal process.

The real victims in this case are Meredith's family in Britain, who will never see their much loved daughter and sister again. Although this is often forgotten. :(

The Murder of Meredith Kercher

True Justice For Meredith Kercher

Amanda Knox Weeps And Vows To 'Fight Till End'

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Her family have shown dignity and maturity under these terrible circumstances. They deserve the truth.
 
Viv said:
Her family have shown dignity and maturity under these terrible circumstances. They deserve the truth.
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What? Seems like a situation where the "truth" acceptable to the family is only one in which she was raped by Guede as Knox and Solletica cackled maniacally in the background before Knox plunged the knife in.

Cos they weren't best mates or something....?
 
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