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Israel PM under fire over son's Norwegian girlfriend

quote from the article

Nissim Zeev, a member of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, told the Jerusalem Post on Sunday Netanyahu must "display national responsibility" as prime minister.

"It's a big problem," he said. "I bet it pains him."
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"Your grandchildren, as you know, will not be Jewish," Lehava director Bentzi Gopshtain warned the Israeli premier in a Facebook post.
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Judaism is traditionally matrilineal, in which a child's religion is determined by that of its mother.

Yair is the son of Netanyahu's third wife, Sara. Netanyahu was himself married to a non-Jewish woman, Fleur Cates, between 1981 and 1984.
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I don't know who that bentzi is, but he is an asshole, too bad he seems to represent mainstream israeli society. Don't get me wrong, i have no love for netanyahu, he's a beligerent, disgruntled warmongerer. But that's him.

That being said, it's quite tragic that the personal life of someone related to someone in public office is being put under scrutiny by other people. is his son in public office? If not, and if he hasn't been used by his father in political campaigns, then he's off limits.
 
This kind of rigid, traditionalist thinking, which makes no attempt to remain open minded or flexible in accordance with modern necessity, is one of the reasons why countries still go to war over ideology.

Love is freedom and if you really love someone else then your relationship should not be condemned by old world fundamentalism, regardless if you are PM of a country or an average joe.

End the discrimination now.
 
Oh dear, we'll have to wait for the ardent supporters to see the spin. This isn't new, and among the UO its a staple "value". It will probably be defended on some cultural value but its not so much racial discrimination as religious. I would suppose that being Norwegian is less important then being non-Jewish. Also, his son is 23, so why Bibi gets the criticism is questionable.
 
The knuckle dragging ultra orthodox Jews here need only pay attention to who they are boning.

I doubt this attitude is indicative of mainstream Israeli opinion.
 
PeteEU said:
Not exactly racist... it is a brain-dead religious thing that they have in common with Muslims and use to have in common with Christians.

But kudos to the kid.. a real looker he bagged himself there!
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I'd call her more nice looking then 'a real looker' myself.

But, each to their own.

Besides, any son of a world famous leader could 'bag' himself a 'looker' faster then you can say 'groupie'.

That he is dating someone outside of his religion against public acceptance...now that I'll give him 'kudos' for.
 
PeteEU said:
Not exactly racist... it is a brain-dead religious thing that they have in common with Muslims and use to have in common with Christians.

But kudos to the kid.. a real looker he bagged himself there!
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No, it's the same mentality the Nazis had. You know.. pure blood.. :lol:
 
Ben K. said:
The knuckle dragging ultra orthodox Jews here need only pay attention to who they are boning.

I doubt this attitude is indicative of mainstream Israeli opinion.
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Actually it is more mainstream than you think, especially with the elder population. I have had Jewish friends who dated non Jews and there was always grandparents and such who came with comments about the non-Jewish aspect of the person they were dating. I also reading a debate about Natalie Portman back when she was single, that she stated once that she could never marry a non Jew... and in the end she did marry a fellow Jew. And I would not put Natalie Portman in the "dumb blond religious nutjob" block.. Now that is not saying it is a majority that believe such things, but I think it is more than most people expect. Same goes for Muslims btw.
 
Ben K. said:
The knuckle dragging ultra orthodox Jews here need only pay attention to who they are boning.

I doubt this attitude is indicative of mainstream Israeli opinion.
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Actually, it's a pretty mainstream view of Jews.Now before people jump down my throat for that.. let me explain. What most classify as Jews (anybody born of parents who are of the Jewish faith), I do not.
To me Jews are those who are religious. Then there is Israeli (insert - American, or whatever country they live in unless in Israel) who are Jewish by culture but not by religion (non-practicing).

Ben K. with you being in Ireland you see this just as much as Americans do when it comes to Catholic vs. Protestant with those of Irish decent. Being Irish is synonymous with being Catholic and it's not true. While Protestants tend to consider themselves Ulster-Scots, they are still Irish. So we have to rely on 2nd title for the subset (religion) they are. Irish-Catholic vs. Ulster-Scots which is the religious definer.

Orthodox Jews are becoming a larger and larger part of the make up of the modern Jewish movement. They have alot more kids and they tend to stay Orthodox.
 
austrianecon said:
Actually, it's a pretty mainstream view of Jews.Now before people jump down my throat for that.. let me explain. What most classify as Jews (anybody born of parents who are of the Jewish faith), I do not.
To me Jews are those who are religious. Then there is Israeli (insert - American, or whatever country they live in unless in Israel) who are Jewish by culture but not by religion (non-practicing).
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They may have culture wars over there like everyone else, but Israeli's are largely Jewish no matter what side of the issue they're on.

Ben K. with you being in Ireland you see this just as much as Americans do when it comes to Catholic vs. Protestant with those of Irish decent. Being Irish is synonymous with being Catholic and it's not true. While Protestants tend to consider themselves Ulster-Scots, they are still Irish. So we have to rely on 2nd title for the subset (religion) they are. Irish-Catholic vs. Ulster-Scots which is the religious definer.
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If there's regressive social views here the Irish-Catholic thing becomes synonymous. Ulster Scots in NI may have regressive social views, but Anglo Irish in RoI tended to be socially liberal. Anglo Irish has probably been replaced by lapsed/secular/liberal catholic Irish in any "Culture War".

Orthodox Jews are becoming a larger and larger part of the make up of the modern Jewish movement. They have alot more kids and they tend to stay Orthodox.
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Doesn't mean Orthodox Jew defines Jew, or that Jew isn't an ethnic identifier as well as a religious one.
 
Ben K. said:
They may have culture wars over there like everyone else, but Israeli's are largely Jewish no matter what side of the issue they're on.
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I don't care what side of the issue they are on. I am looking at how they define themselves religiously. Religiously or not they'll rally around the flag as it's a culture mentality which is political.

Ben K. said:
If there's regressive social views here the Irish-Catholic thing becomes synonymous. Ulster Scots in NI may have regressive social views, but Anglo Irish in RoI tended to be socially liberal. Anglo Irish has probably been replaced by lapsed/secular/liberal catholic Irish in any "Culture War".
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If and may? You are being really nice. Anglo-Irish is a subset as well but rarely do they define themselves religiously which is why they are more socially liberal. But those Irish who have lapsed/secular/liberal aren't religious so you can't define them as Irish-Catholic. But rather Irish.


Ben K. said:
Doesn't mean Orthodox Jew defines Jew, or that Jew isn't an ethnic identifier as well as a religious one.
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I never defined Orthodox Jews to mean Jew, I was just pointing out they are the largest group of practicing Jews. Jew isn't an ethnic identifier. Judaism is a religion. It's a religious identifier. An Ethnic group is (by definition) a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, cultural, social, or national experience. That means an American Jew has a different Ethnicity then a Israeli Jew or an Ethiopian Jew. Shlomo Molla struggles (National Experience) as an Ethiopian is different then an American Jew born in NYC in 1965. Which is why even in Israel you'll find Ethiopian Jews who immigrated from Ethiopia over the last 30 years have had major problems "fitting" in. They aren't natural speakers of Hebrew, they've faced racism, prejudice and they are paid 30-40% less the Arabs working in Israel.
 
I don't care what side of the issue they are on. I am looking at how they define themselves religiously. Religiously or not they'll rally around the flag as it's a culture mentality which is political.
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I'm not following, they'll rally around the Jewish identifier if they're religious or not.




If and may? You are being really nice. Anglo-Irish is a subset as well but rarely do they define themselves religiously which is why they are more socially liberal. But those Irish who have lapsed/secular/liberal aren't religious so you can't define them as Irish-Catholic. But rather Irish.
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I said liberal Catholic or secular so they can be religious and liberal. Anglo Irish quite proudly ID themselves as Church of Ireland, I'm not sure what you're talking about.


I never defined Orthodox Jews to mean Jew, I was just pointing out they are the largest group of practicing Jews. Jew isn't an ethnic identifier. Judaism is a religion. It's a religious identifier. An Ethnic group is (by definition) a social group of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, cultural, social, or national experience. That means an American Jew has a different Ethnicity then a Israeli Jew or an Ethiopian Jew. Shlomo Molla struggles (National Experience) as an Ethiopian is different then an American Jew born in NYC in 1965. Which is why even in Israel you'll find Ethiopian Jews who immigrated from Ethiopia over the last 30 years have had major problems "fitting" in. They aren't natural speakers of Hebrew, they've faced racism, prejudice and they are paid 30-40% less the Arabs working in Israel.
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An American Jew is an American from a Jewish ethnic background. A tribal religion is going to share ethnicity and religion. If Celtic polytheism was still around, celtic would mean a religion and an ethnicity.
 
Seriously, who gives a damn about what some religious nutjobs think?
How is that piece news-worthy?
 
austrianecon said:
Actually, it's a pretty mainstream view of Jews.Now before people jump down my throat for that.. let me explain. What most classify as Jews (anybody born of parents who are of the Jewish faith), I do not.
To me Jews are those who are religious. Then there is Israeli (insert - American, or whatever country they live in unless in Israel) who are Jewish by culture but not by religion (non-practicing).

Ben K. with you being in Ireland you see this just as much as Americans do when it comes to Catholic vs. Protestant with those of Irish decent. Being Irish is synonymous with being Catholic and it's not true. While Protestants tend to consider themselves Ulster-Scots, they are still Irish. So we have to rely on 2nd title for the subset (religion) they are. Irish-Catholic vs. Ulster-Scots which is the religious definer.

Orthodox Jews are becoming a larger and larger part of the make up of the modern Jewish movement. They have alot more kids and they tend to stay Orthodox.
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Well as someone that married into the Jewish faith, (My Dad was Jewish but not my Mom, and my ex wife is Jewish, and her Mom Israeli and her Dad German of all things) I had to convert in order for my ex's family to accept me. I'm not religious so I didn't care, was just a formality for me. MY ex's Mom is moderate Jewish and stays Kosher, her children all reform Jews, but even in reform Judaism this mentality creeps in. I am thinking that because in Judaism the system (Breed line) is passed down by the matriarch. In America you're seeing this inter-marriage a lot more, and it is becoming accepted more and more, but even in America, the system for recording Jewish heritage is kept in Cincinnati, and if your Mother isn't Jewish, her kids simply are not, unless they convert.

Personally, I don't care about organized religion. I find it antiquated, and resembling a civilized societies first real attempts at some sort of order. Authority, to me must come from somewhere, and what better place than somewhere you can't see. ;) Seriously though, I have no beef with Jews or Christians, and my two older boys go to Jewish Sunday School, and my two younger one's attend Catholic Sunday school. If, like me they get a well rounded view on religion it has a lot to offer younger children, and as adults they are free to make up their own minds, just like I did.


As to the OP, this Rabbi is a product of his religious convictions, and right or wrong he has a right to them. If you disagree, then say so, and make sure you're heard. People will decide for themselves what they view as rational. The Rabbi is actually right, even though he's wrong. :)


Tim-
 
Apocalypse said:
Seriously, who gives a damn about what some religious nutjobs think?
How is that piece news-worthy?
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On the grounds that Israel is the first to cry discrimination in anything. So I suppose hypocrisy.
 
Ben K. said:
I doubt this attitude is indicative of mainstream Israeli opinion.
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no, it is not.

Butt that does not prevent the haters from trying to portray it as such.
 
A whole thread and no comment that she's good looking?
 
PeteEU said:
Actually it is more mainstream than you think, especially with the elder population. I have had Jewish friends who dated non Jews and there was always grandparents and such who came with comments about the non-Jewish aspect of the person they were dating. I also reading a debate about Natalie Portman back when she was single, that she stated once that she could never marry a non Jew... and in the end she did marry a fellow Jew. And I would not put Natalie Portman in the "dumb blond religious nutjob" block.. Now that is not saying it is a majority that believe such things, but I think it is more than most people expect. Same goes for Muslims btw.
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The 'taboo' (though that might be too strong a word) against marrying a non-Jew, especially one who wont convert is much stronger than just in the elderly population. As an atheistic Jewish twenty something I feel a sort of internalized opposition to the idea because of how big of an impact it has on your children and your 'legacy' is defined. It's one of those odd things where the kid who's Judaism is irrelevant to him will still be concerned about the religion of his would be spouse. It's way, way more common than you think.
 
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