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US judge strikes down Okla. same-sex marriage ban

How many goalposts do you have? Should I go around cutting them down before we begin posting so that you can stay on point?

I haven't moved a goal post. What the government does and why it supports what it does isn't some binary pass X and you're good. If you have some simple black and white criteria for what the government does good for you...a lot of us don't think that way.

So you believe in the principle that government should be involved in activities if it can make peoples lives easier, but impose a limit on it's extent? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.
Sure...that's why we have court systems and elections. We do it every day. The battles in Washington are about expansion of government versus limiting it. The battle has been fought since the countries inception.

Your argument was essentially marriage is old and therefore the government should be involved. It's just as weak as your other arguments you have presented so far.
No...I've said human beings have been coupling together forever...older than the act of marriage or government.
 
Really? Marriage is a pretty common practice and the amount of paperwork and lawyer fees required are pretty substantial in order to recreate the protections a spouse has.

Its no different than typical contract law, and since its a common practice, it would be pretty simple to adopt.

Let the government create a designation, like a benefactor, and replace all law references to "spouce, partner, marriage" etc with designated benefactor. Now all citizenry can choose 1 person, whomever they want, to get those special protections and privileges. It eliminates the state's involvement with any type of marriage, and turns it all into basic contracts.

If the state wants to regulate those contracts, by being the keeper of the records, so be it, but its a much better system than what we have today.
 
Its no different than typical contract law, and since its a common practice, it would be pretty simple to adopt.

Let the government create a designation, like a benefactor, and replace all law references to "spouce, partner, marriage" etc with designated benefactor. Now all citizenry can choose 1 person, whomever they want, to get those special protections and privileges. It eliminates the state's involvement with any type of marriage, and turns it all into basic contracts.

If the state wants to regulate those contracts, by being the keeper of the records, so be it, but its a much better system than what we have today.

Ahh yes, the "take my ball and go home" approach.

Feel free to try and enact this through the democratic process. It's not an unconstitutional idea, but I doubt you'll be successful. Until then, the government doesn't have the right to define marriage as between one man and one woman because that violates equal protection under the law, for reasons I already explained.
 
Ahh yes, the "take my ball and go home" approach.

Feel free to try and enact this through the democratic process. It's not an unconstitutional idea, but I doubt you'll be successful. Until then, the government doesn't have the right to define marriage as between one man and one woman because that violates equal protection under the law, for reasons I already explained.

I don't have to enact it, its my opinion, and I think its better than the existing system. If you don't like it, or prefer the existing system, you are welcome to do so.
 
Ahh yes, the "take my ball and go home" approach.

Feel free to try and enact this through the democratic process. It's not an unconstitutional idea, but I doubt you'll be successful. Until then, the government doesn't have the right to define marriage as between one man and one woman because that violates equal protection under the law, for reasons I already explained.

Except it's not their ball.
 
sorry you dont get to "disregard" FACTS
so your failed strawman complete fails and your opinion is factually wrong :shrug:

everybody honest, educated and objective will keep saying equal rights and equality because thats the facts.

Rights, laws, court cases and court precedence will all keep referring to equality because again thats the facts.
Facts > Tim's proven wrong OPINION


Didn't I already destroy you in that other gay thread on this matter? LOL

You don't have ANY facts sunshine, period. You only serve to marginalize your opinion further when you keep doing this, but I digress. ;)


Tim-
 
not what "i" want, i just want equality and luckily thats whats winning

but i say if people are actually that mentally inept and or bigoted enough to want to fight over the fed granting and protecting equal rights I say bring it on.

This way these type of anti-freedom and anti-rights people are quickly and easily identified and can be dealt with. They can rebel, fight and die or simply move to Russia if they choose. They will never be happy in a free country like this anyway.

No, you want what you perceive to be equality because you perceive homosexuals as equals to heterosexuals. Others don't see it that way.


Tim-
 
I don't have to enact it, its my opinion, and I think its better than the existing system. If you don't like it, or prefer the existing system, you are welcome to do so.

Ok, so don't enact it. :shrug:

Except it's not their ball.

True. But they perceive it to be.
 
Of course they can cut off federal funding and of course TX would cave. The feds used similar tactics when it came to changing the drinking ages, speed limits, seat belt laws, etc.


What? You do realize that drinking age, seat belt laws, and speed limits vary a lot from state to state, right?


And because of its discriminatory basis which has been explained throughout this thread, the decision is Constitutional, which is probably more than the examples I gave were. As such, the tyranny of the majority may not decide the fate of the minority.


The majority through representation decide the fate of the minority all the time. We call it legislation sweetie, and the Dems took a big fat piling stinky one on the rest of us in 2010. ;)


I'll just ignore your prehistoric and unfounded opinion on homosexuality. That ignorance does not lend itself to credibility on other subjects.


And your liberal, forward thinking self, can pat yourself on the back for your courageous stand.


Tim-
 
1.)Didn't I already destroy you in that other gay thread on this matter? LOL

2.)You don't have ANY facts sunshine, period. You only serve to marginalize your opinion further when you keep doing this, but I digress. ;)


Tim-

1.) nope, me and other posters presented facts while you said "nu-huh" and that is continuing
2.) you can repost this lie 800 times it will never be true as me and many other have posted that facts while you got nothing.

if you disagree simply post your facts now that make all the facts, rights, court cases and cout precedence meaningless and that factually prove that this is not an equal rights issue. You NEVER do, you respond with failed insults, opinions and excuses but in the end the facts remain lol
 
No, you want what you perceive to be equality because you perceive homosexuals as equals to heterosexuals. Others don't see it that way.


Tim-

their OPINIONS , yours and mine are meaninglessness to facts that they are equal. Opinions matter on this subject. Facts defeat your post again
 
What? You do realize that drinking age, seat belt laws, and speed limits vary a lot from state to state, right?

The majority through representation decide the fate of the minority all the time. We call it legislation sweetie, and the Dems took a big fat piling stinky one on the rest of us in 2010. ;)



And your liberal, forward thinking self, can pat yourself on the back for your courageous stand.


Tim-

You get quite offensive when you are defensive....and wrong.

All the states have the same drinking age now. Not sure about seat belts but I think all do and all the states had to make their speed limit on specific roadways no higher than 55 back in the late 70's (and only recently were they able to start changing them back). In all 3 examples, if there were exceptions they were rare (I dont know if MT ever complied with the speed limit or got exemptions) In all cases, they complied because of the threat of federal money being withheld.

And that majority does not get to decide on issues affecting minorities on Constitutional issues...like discrimination and equal protection under the law.

Anything else you'd like to try and 'clarify?'
 
Ok, so don't enact it. :shrug:



True. But they perceive it to be.

And I perceive marriage to be the sole domain of people named Cardinal. Realistically, however, we're both probably crap out of luck.
 
What if a totally RED state, like say Texas somehow found itself in the same predicament with an judge ruling away the will of the people on a social matter were to say, F-U Judge, and inform it's State employees that the ruling of the people is the law, and NOT that of the court. Ok, so the USSC would have to rule on this once and for all, and say they rule that States don't have a right to define marriage, and rule with gays, and then the state says screw you, you're misapplying the meaning of what citizens have a right to decide for themselves. So then what? What is the Federal government going to do about it? I ask in all seriousness because the Fed's can cut off any federal funding or they could use force (Doubtful), but using force would cause an outright rebellion from the other states. The point here is that these lower court rulings are emotional, and in my honest well educated opinion, are not based on the proper interpretations of the Constitution.

I've stated many times that, citizens have a right to decide for themselves, and as locally as possible what kind of community they want to live in. Mobility allows those that do not agree to reside elsewhere, and if your laws are so far out there, then no one will live there and the town, municipality, or State will go bankrupt, or be forced to change due to a lack of constituency. With all the in and outs of what the Founders wanted in a nation, this one thing rings true on every level. The founders wanted the states to be sovereign republics, and within the states themselves they wanted the localities to direct public policy. The thinking was, and still is that, if a locality is run properly, the locality will stand or fall based on its policies. The Federal government was only ever needed to regulate commerce between the states, protect our borders, have a standing army, and to conduct trade, and wage war. The Federal government by slowly but surely disproportionately taxing all US citizens has grown to a point where they buy the states compliance or punish if not complaint with its wishes. This to me, is wrong headed, and we deserve the government we have, but no one in their right mind would want a government that forces social policy on its citizens by judicial fiat.

For the record, DO NOT say that SSM is about equality. I disregard that philosophy. Homosexuality is a sexual fetish, no different than any other fetish. Heterosexuality is the baseline potential of all humans, and most animals, IMO, and however and whenever someone waivers from that, whether exclusively or partially doesn't change that assertion, IMO. If a heterosexual engages in anal sex, that is a fetish, if they engage in drinking someone else's urine, that is a fetish, if it's in wanting to have sex with a child, that is a fetish. Some fetishes have become socially acceptable while some others remain not so much, but make no mistake, when it comes to what is socially acceptable, the people should decide. No one wants to take away the homosexual fetish and of those that wish to practice it either exclusively, or on occasion, but lets all please stop pretending that homosexuality is on equal ground with heterosexuality, and therefore in my opinion not worthy of any claim to equal marriage rights.


Tim-

Yeah don't ever post in one of my threads again. If you want those red states getting their collective ass whooped again, carry on, otherwise keep this lunacy in your head where it belongs.

If you think any red state, even texas, would survive in non 3rd world status for even 2 years without the fed's enormous power to go into debt and distill some leakage of sanity onto the "land of cotton," dream on.

Oh, and Uganda is ------>

What is it ya'll love to say? "America, love it or GTFO"
 
No, you want what you perceive to be equality because you perceive homosexuals as equals to heterosexuals. Others don't see it that way.


Tim-

You're right, bigots don't see it that way. The judicial branch will never cater to that level of intolerance.
 
Yeah? go look up what legal marriage is... Outside of Church vows...

What is it tell me!!!!

Legal marriage is a contract between two people which makes them legally kin and each other's closest legal relative. It gives some limited legal recognition of families of a person's spouse as well, aka inlaws. It is, in general, a contract that comes with certain legal and limited financial responsibilities but also comes with benefits and privileges, especially those given already to legal blood relatives or relationships created through other means (adoption). That is what it is for every person in the US who is married. A person could change some of these, but there will always be at least that established legal kinship as long as the marriage is legal.
 
Some may see it as that, and honestly I could care less and expect many of your opinion to see my post and views that way.

The state's should have the right to define marriage and uphold the traditional definition of marriage that has been the legal precedence for many years. There have been no new amendments to the Constitution regarding sexuality or private sex practices. People have been making the political and ethical arguments that one's personal sex choices and relationships are somehow a protected right and no state can uphold traditional marriage because those sex practices and relationships do not fit within that definition. If they want this a Constitutional Amendment should be added, rulings shouldn't happen due to changes in public opinion or judicial activism. Stretching the Constitution to make classes of people, based on their sexual preferences and practices, protected classes and revoking and denying people the ability to make laws that are very much in line with past popular beliefs is tyranny. It is tyrannical to force the states that have upheld traditional marriage, and the people of those states who voted on such, to remove those laws is making those people second class citizens, trampling on their state's right to govern, and imposing a social view in a tyrannical way without an amendment ratified into the Constitution. I don't think any rational person would say that such rulings would happen 50 years ago or maybe even 30 years ago, only until recently with political pushes and changes in social beliefs do we see these things. People lost political battles, and now they want to force their opinion and beliefs into laws by trying to enshrine their views as the ultimate law of the land and in doing so restricting the freedoms of others to vote. I have absolutely no problem if states want to legalize SSM or if they want to uphold traditional marriage. However, that should be left up to the states and the Constitution, as it is now, should not force states that uphold traditional marriage to reject legally held definitions and having social changes on the issue be the driving force behind revoking the voting privileges and rights of others.

And all of this rant could easily be used against interracial or even interfaith marriages, to uphold laws that banned such marriages. Interracial marriage bans were very traditional (the first ones were laws prior to us even becoming a country, and most states had laws in place against interracial marriages sometime within our history). The people, voters absolutely supported interracial marriage bans, some places in much higher percentages than we see now with same sex marriage bans. In fact, polls in the 1970s showed that around 70% of the US population as a whole favored banning interracial marriages. Even many minorities were against interracial marriage. And it was viewed, at least then (in some places still), to be a religious belief. And since everyone was still allowed to get married, it really did not prevent anyone from getting married due to their specific race, but rather prevented a person from marrying the person they would prefer due to their preference of one race to another, just as same sex marriage bans prevent a person from marrying the person they would prefer due to their preference of one sex/gender to the other.
 
And there's the problem. Gays are so caught up with getting what they want that they don't care about respecting the Constitution. So long as they get their agenda item, **** the country.

I support SSM, but the way to accomplish it is with the introduction of the 28th Amendment defining marriage. Then the 14th Amendment applies and all states will have to comply.

The 14th already applies. It is stupid to have yet another Amendment to clarify something that already has standing legal precedent, even within SCOTUS decisions.
 
Equal protection means protecting the rights of voter's and respecting state laws and autonomy on marriage policy. Losing a political battle in a state and trying to work around it in the courts with courts reacting on social opinion and personal values is tyranny. The judge in this case waited 9 years before making this ruling and quoted the current case in Utah as precedence (one that has stay and is being appealed).

Equal protection means protecting the rights of all people, citizens, not just voters. It is absolutely meant to limit state laws that would violate the rights of people.
 
That was my point - Marriage is a) not state recognized (beyond contract law) and b) generally only recognized by the Church or in front of God..

The State doesn't recognize one or the other.... If they did the argument would be a First Amendment argument and not a Fourteenth (or other issues associated) "equal protection clause" argument.

The Fourteenth is useless given the aforementioned criteria.

My marriage is only recognized by the state and anyone who wishes to recognize it (including our family and friends, coworkers, work, pretty much everyone we do business with that cares, and most people we meet). I'm sure there would be plenty of churches that would recognize our marriage if we cared to even inform them of it, but since we are not religious, there is no specific church that has ever flat out recognized my marriage to my husband, nor is it required.

You really aren't arguing anything here. You are simply trying stating stuff that doesn't mean anything to the issue at hand. Religion recognizes personal marriages. It is in fact part of the personal aspect of marriage, not the legal aspect. And when we discuss laws dealing with marriage, we are discussing the legal aspect of marriage. Just like if we discussed laws dealing with parents and children, such as custody, parental rights, visitation, child support, etc., we would be discussing the legal aspect of parenting. It would only apply to those who are legally recognized as parents. My mother and father may each claim my best friend as their "child", but legally it doesn't mean anything. She is not my legal sibling (which sucks, but she is an adult). Doesn't prevent me from calling her "sis", but it does prevent me from invoking the Family Leave Act should something happen to her.
 
Do people not realize that state issued marriage licenses are legal contracts?

Yeah, that is why a woman can sue a man and take all his **** in a divorce!!!!

This has nothing to do with recognizing marriage!!!!

Here is your issue. You fail to recognize that this is a special form of contract, similar in nature to an adoption contract, in that it grants state-recognition of legal kinship, which, in itself, comes with legal rights and privileges.
 
Provide the state interest in restricting incestual marriages. After you cite birth defects, explain why they still restrict incestual gay marriages. Or provide the state interest in being involved in a marriage contract at all.

They could easily be challenged, but they would not have the same arguments. Birth defects are not the only thing at issue here (birth defects would actually be for laws regarding incestuous relationships, including marriage but not limited to marriage). There is also the argument that the kinship granted with marriage already exists for those who would be considered incestuous marriages in most cases. In fact, I see first cousins (and any further out kinship relationships) marrying as the next marriage battle. I see a public battle on certain tiers of blood relationship laws being fought in the relatively near future. And it likely won't be a such a large war as this one considering Rhode Island currently has no criminal incest laws (although they do not allow certain relations to marry) and no one seems to care, yet everyone was all up in arms against same sex marriage in the US since the first inkling that any state may actually allow such marriages, let alone relationships. But there is also the very real question in cases of incest of "when did the relationship begin", since there is a much higher chance of undue influence in such relationships.

Overall, though, the laws would have to be challenged before it would be an issue. They aren't being challenged and won't likely be (at least not for close blood relations) for at least another generation or so.
 
You've asked me no question. The core of your opinion, is that equal protection applies unless the state can prove interest.

What is the state's interest in a marriage contract?

The state's interest in a marriage contract is the same interest it has in keeping public records of adoption or birth (birth certificates), to keep track of legal kinship. This goes into inheritance law, tax law, ownership law (there is at least one specific law that treats married couples owning a house differently than any other person/combination of people owning a house), legal decision making (such as who gets to make legal decisions for another person in case of death or inability to do so), child custody law, next of kin informing in event of emergency/tragedy, Family Leave Act and similar acts/laws dealing with rights of families, contract law, and many other areas of law that are simply easier to deal with if the government has a legal record of kinship, such as a birth certificate, adoption papers, or marriage license (which basically becomes a marriage contract right after it is completely filled out and filed with the state).
 
Why does something being expensive mean the government has to do it?

The government already does it at a much smaller cost. It is stupid to make the process less efficient, and for no real reason except some don't really understand why the government is involved in the first place.
 
I see, so if the government can make peoples lives easier in a certain activity they desire to take part in the government should take it on themselves do it. What other activities should they handle for people?

Other activities that the people want them to handle, including some they already do, such as education and the mail and protection of the public through police (something that really wasn't even done until the last century and a half or so, at least not recognizable as we do it now), to name a few. There are plenty of things that the public, voters, citizens ask the government to do for them because it is more efficiently done by the government rather than privately with each individual.
 
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