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How hard is it to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan? Very hard.

But its a progressive stoning, Erod. .

They start with little rocks and work up to big ones, so he has to support it.

well, that came from from the same guy who compared a parent killing the person who raped their daughter, to the parent just killing their daughter for being raped. So I think we can conclude thinking has taken a back seat to agenda ...
 
well, that came from from the same guy who compared a parent killing the person who raped their daughter, to the parent just killing their daughter for being raped. So I think we can conclude thinking has taken a back seat to agenda ...

I really do get the impression that if it somehow came to happen that liking puppies was considered "conservative", he'd make sure to kill a bunch of them just to make sure.

What makes it so ironic is that it is the Afghan culture that actually represents the antithesis of progress. All he knows is what he is against,however, and so he must support this backwardness in order to be against something else. It is downright Orwellian in its dogmatic ignorance and inversion of reality.
 
Ok Stone, fair enough. This all started with you suggesting that America was/is a peaceful nation and Afghanistan knows only war. Despite the fact that war has been brought to Afghanistan by outside forces, I was taking issue with the "America is a peaceful nation" part of your post and showing that in fact America is a nation that has been at war for more of its years of existence then not. You made no differentiation in that statement, then, but you have now. So, if we're talking about the fact that most of the wars America has been involved in have not been on US soil, I readily agree with that, and THAT is evidence that the majority of the wars that America has been involved in have not been defensive by nature. Never mind the fact that no matter what the reason, the White House will ALWAYS present it as defensive.

I said America is a nation of "peace."

Are you suggesting that America does not fight defensive wars?
 
When one of the first things Americans do when taking over in Afghanistan is to rebuild the former supply line for heroin trafficking in the world at Tajikistan–Afghanistan bridge at Panji Poyon, thus connecting once again the planet with a stable supply of this drug, its hard for the people you want to win over to believe you are on the moral high ground. This, and many other examples, dictate the trevails of turning this region into an area where the enemy once stood against such despotism, as diabolical as they might be.

You've got it backwards. When the Taliban outlawed opium production, poppy farmers aligned themselves with the US and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban. Now that we've come and continued such an unnecessary policy, the same poppy farmers can count themselves among the Taliban's main supporters.
 
Some of these comments in this topic are over the top and more "simple minded" then the people they bash. Knowing history, which some here have absolutely no knowledge, is the key to understanding the future. So here is a the more you know special.

Afghanistan is a country rich in rebellions and refusal to be conquered. Alexander the Great conquered Iran in 6 months, it took him 3 years to "conquer" Afghanistan. Then came the Greater Khorasan Empire, Maurya Empire and Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. Then the Seleucids tried to invade and conquer the Bactrian empire. But they failed after a 3 year siege of Bactria (today known as Balkh, it's one of the oldest cities in the world). Then came the Kushan Empire, Sassanian invasion, Kabul Shahi (Shahi dynasty). Now that's history just up to 700 AD.

Then came the Muslims. For over 1200 years the Afghans fought the Muslims. Arab armies were defeated. Those that weren't, the revolting people submitted to Islam for survival but once the Arab army left they reverted back to their Hindu, Christian and other beliefs. Then they would revolt again. But this is a tactic we see to this very day by Afghans. It wasn't until 1890 the last region of Nuristan Province fully converted to Islam. Those Afghans that live in Nuristan spent centuries in resistance against Islam, but it played a bigger roll later in history but I'll get to that.

Hotaki Empire founded by a "revolutionary" Mir Wais Hotak. He is equatable to our George Washington. After it's collapse came the Durrani Empire and the rise of the Barakzai dynasty (ruled Afghanistan until 1973) and heading to the 1830s and its wars with the Shikh ans Persians. Now this is the time when the Russians and the Brits wanted to claim central Asia for themselves. It was known as the Great Game strat. British got their ass kicked by those "simple minded" Afghans. Then came the Russians and the Russian learned what the British learned a century earlier. Afghanistan is the grave yard of Empires. Now Nuristan was always a key portion of Afghan resistance. Be it the British, Russian or even American backed Afghan Government.

Now to say the Afghans, specifically the Pashtuns have no values or morals comparable to us is wrong. Hell, Americans wouldn't be going to the movies this weekend to see Lone Survivor if there was no such thing as Pashtunwali.

To ignore this history, is to not know your enemy or your friend. When the US leaves Afghanistan, the Taliban will come back. Just as Barakzai dynasty came back after the British walked away a few dozen times.

Correlation does not prove causation. Alexander was fairly successful in Afghanistan, as were (I believe) the British.

Instead of mindlessly pointing at the history of Afghanistan to assert that victory there is impossible, we should analyze the context and strategies of those previous wars to see what conditions led to defeat, as well as those of the present day. And we should alter our policy first and foremost by deeply reconsidering the status of our relationship with Pakistan.
 
Terrorism is another word for Guerrilla warfare.

No, it isn't. Guerrilla warfare involves hiding amongst the populace/environment and assaulting the enemy until it is no longer willing to keep up the fight. Terrorism, while often (but not always) using guerrilla tactics, specifically targets civilians to instill fear in a populace that may or may not be directly opposing them. The Vietcong were non-terrorist guerrillas, the Taliban are simply terrorists utilizing guerrilla warfare.
 
I said America is a nation of "peace."

Are you suggesting that America does not fight defensive wars?

I'm saying the vast majority of the wars the US fights are political, by far.
 
You've got it backwards. When the Taliban outlawed opium production, poppy farmers aligned themselves with the US and the Northern Alliance against the Taliban. Now that we've come and continued such an unnecessary policy, the same poppy farmers can count themselves among the Taliban's main supporters.

I have no doubt that the same poppy farmers might be supporting the Taliban, but production is up since the days when the Taliban were in power. These pictures released from the ISAS and NATO along with the accompanying report paint an interesting picture as well.

https://publicintelligence.net/usnato-troops-patrolling-opium-poppy-fields-in-afghanistan
 
No, it isn't. Guerrilla warfare involves hiding amongst the populace/environment and assaulting the enemy until it is no longer willing to keep up the fight. Terrorism, while often (but not always) using guerrilla tactics, specifically targets civilians to instill fear in a populace that may or may not be directly opposing them. The Vietcong were non-terrorist guerrillas, the Taliban are simply terrorists utilizing guerrilla warfare.

You are just proving me right with your example of the Viet Cong.


Vietcong were doing the same thing as the Taliban. You should read up what the Viet Cong did in Huế, it's My Canh bombing, Đắk Sơn, death squads that killed over 30,000 civilians in South Vietnam.
 
I have no doubt that the same poppy farmers might be supporting the Taliban, but production is up since the days when the Taliban were in power. These pictures released from the ISAS and NATO along with the accompanying report paint an interesting picture as well.

https://publicintelligence.net/usnato-troops-patrolling-opium-poppy-fields-in-afghanistan

at their height of power the taliban was also exercising a rather clear monopoly on power in the relatively stable regions they controlled. So that is hardly surprising. I'm sure if we and the afghan national forces weren't fighting an active insurgency similar successes could be had.

But other than that, what is your point?
 
Correlation does not prove causation. Alexander was fairly successful in Afghanistan, as were (I believe) the British.

Instead of mindlessly pointing at the history of Afghanistan to assert that victory there is impossible, we should analyze the context and strategies of those previous wars to see what conditions led to defeat, as well as those of the present day. And we should alter our policy first and foremost by deeply reconsidering the status of our relationship with Pakistan.

The British were not successful. Each time they withdrew from Afghanistan.

The fact you are talking about "victory" in Afghanistan is just as foolish as Neocons insisting victory was possible in Iraq. This is a failure of insight into a 3rd world dictatorship put in power by United States, British and other colonialism causes that then require intervention to remove that dictatorship when they thumb their nose at their "bosses". The form of "civilization" they had was only held together by force and brutality. The religious differences and separatist movements in Iraq were set in stone before the first bomb was dropped. It was something DoD wrote papers on and others even Op-Ed it. They suggested splitting Iraq into 3 different regions two of which would be free to decide if to join Jordan, Kuwait (more then likely Iran) or create their own states. The 3 region would be come Kurdistan. Iraq would cease to exist. That's what is gonna happen. It's the only way for the violence can be controlled.

Afghanistan is the same way. When the US leaves violence is gonna go up again and the Taliban are gonna steamroll to it's power of pre-9/11. The Afghan military is only held together by foreign oversight and the knowledge that US, British and others combat troops are there. Once they are gone, those Afghans we trained for the military are just gonna leave and fight along ethnic sides. British have been floating the idea around for 2 years now. British plan calls for 8 regions. I can really only 3 being needed. Pashtuns will control one and we have to accept the fact that the Taliban will have power. This isn't some secret. It's just something that we refuse to talk about. We will have to make peace with the Taliban, they aren't going away. Just like British and Unionist in Northern Ireland had to make peace with the Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein.
 
My state has (today) been selected as a testing area for drones. We can paste a few drones in an average Las Vegas neighborhood and test how this might impact (pun intended) the hearts and minds of the survivors.

I have picked a few targets and will be sending my suggestions to the DOD. I'll let you know how it works out.

Whatever the drones blow up in Vegas...I hope the explosion is huge enough to atmospherically scatter all of the money I lost there and drift back to my house. :lol:
 
Whatever the drones blow up in Vegas...I hope the explosion is huge enough to atmospherically scatter all of the money I lost there and drift back to my house. :lol:

Good luck with that:roll:
 
Good luck with that:roll:

Well, it only took me about 3 dozen times going in Vegas over the past 30 years to realize that I was insane for going to Vegas to gamble.

Thus...I've ceased and desisted. <<<---if that's spelled right? I don't thunk so. :lol: Anyway, you get the gist.
 
Well, it only took me about 3 dozen times going in Vegas over the past 30 years to realize that I was insane for going to Vegas to gamble.

Thus...I've ceased and desisted. <<<---if that's spelled right? I don't thunk so. :lol: Anyway, you get the gist.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone comes to Las Vegas but I'm glad they do.

I'm not an "entertainment" person but I'm just a natural born recluse. I moved here for opportunity - and it's still a great place for that. I didn't intend to spend the rest of my life here but 40 years went by and now I'm stuck here for sure. So, may Vegas live long and prosper!

We're finally starting to get tech companies moving in to diversify our economy. We have a modest cost of living, plenty of parking, no state income tax and a plentiful supply of hookers and drugs. What more could you ask for?

Come and visit your money sometimes:) We'll take good care of it.
 
Who is this 'they' you speak of? You act as if this small snapshot of Islam is the entire picture, that would be like saying a record cold day in Atlanta means there is no 'global warming'.

It wasn't that long ago a white guy could kill a black man and get away with it- the black man's crime was whistling while black, but American apologists don't call that our 'culture'.

Wow, open your freaking eyes.
 
Who is this 'they' you speak of? You act as if this small snapshot of Islam is the entire picture, that would be like saying a record cold day in Atlanta means there is no 'global warming'.

It wasn't that long ago a white guy could kill a black man and get away with it- the black man's crime was whistling while black, but American apologists don't call that our 'culture'.

1) we are clearly talking about Afghanistan

2) we changed that behavior, partly due to the fact people were willing to openly criticize it and not let others go "well, it's just their nature" ...
 
You are just proving me right with your example of the Viet Cong.


Vietcong were doing the same thing as the Taliban. You should read up what the Viet Cong did in Huế, it's My Canh bombing, Đắk Sơn, death squads that killed over 30,000 civilians in South Vietnam.

Although terrorism was only a minor component of Vietcong activities (as opposed to the Taliban), I'll concede that death squads are a form of terrorism. However, making the link to death squads if anything shows you to be even more wrong - death squads and carpet bombing are forms of non-guerrilla terrorism that is almost entirely utilized by standard national militaries.
 
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I said America is a nation of "peace."

Are you suggesting that America does not fight defensive wars?

Well obviously I was disagreeing with that and showed you why. And of course I don't think the US fights defensive wars, much.
 
Although terrorism was only a minor component of Vietcong activities (as opposed to the Taliban), I'll concede that death squads are a form of terrorism.

Concede? You can't concede a fact, only recognize it.

If you think that terrorism was only a small part of the VC activities. I'll provide you some more cases.

In March 1961 the VC blew up a bus/truck carrying 20 school girls then opened fired upon the survivors. Killing 2 girls and wounding another 10.
In Feb 1962 VC threw grenades into a crowded movie theater near Can Tho, killing 108, 24 of them women and children.
In Oct 1963, VC set off a IED on a passenger buses killing 18, wounding 23.
In Feb 1965, VC blow up US barracks in Qui Nhon, killing 23.
In Oct 1965, VC plant bombs at Cong Hoa National Sports Stadium, one goes off killing 11, wounding 42.
In Dec 1965, VC blow up bomb in US base, killing 3 and wounding 172.
On Dec 14th 1967, Sagion reports in 1 week 232 civilians are killed by VC terrorist acts.

These are just a few of them randomly picked and not even based on time line.. the list is much much larger.

However, making the link to death squads if anything shows you to be even more wrong - death squads and carpet bombing are forms of non-guerrilla terrorism that is almost entirely utilized by standard national militaries.

Actually, it doesn't. As I've stated in a previous post about US's involvement in terrorism which is known as State Terrorism.. We run School of the Americas (known as WHINSEC) at Ft. Benning. Lot of famous dictators and "terrorist" US trained. Hell, the Phoenix Program during Vietnam is a prime example of it. That bold part was US's death squad program in Vietnam. ;)

The fact standing national armies do it doesn't make it not terrorism. It's still terrorism. It's still targeting civilians, by the very definition which is given by those who call the Taliban terrorist, those actions by national armies is terrorism.

My point all along was there is no such thing as non-guerrilla acts, as in a Standing Army either acts ethically or doesn't. There is either conventional (two standing Armies shooting at each other) or unconventional (guerrilla warfare which includes terrorism). There is no gray. Only black and white. US Special Operations defines unconventional warfare as: consists of activities conducted to enable a resistance movement or insurgency to coerce, disrupt or overthrow an occupying power or government by operating through or with an underground, auxiliary and guerrilla force in a denied area.

Taliban doesn't have an Air Force, Helicopters, hundreds of tanks, and UAVs. Their ability consists of fighting the way of the VC, IRA, ETA, FARC, or all those Balkan "Militias" did. To the Taliban this is conventional warfare. To us, it's a foreign concept.
 
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Are not ALL wars political?

Well, you don't know the difference between a political war and a defensive war?



Among the most important treaties is the UN Charter; a Treaty in Force under US law, enacted after two global wars that bind all nations to only defensive wars against other nations that have attacked. This simple rule, more simple than many rules in sports we master in understanding, does not include an attack upon a nation from allegations that a resident within a country initiated a terror attack. According to the leadership of the FBI and CIA, there was no evidence of Afghan government participation in the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.examiner.com/article/afg...awful-orders-us-military-must-refuse-and-stop
 
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The proliferation of illegal wars erodes American values!

A genuinely pro-capitalist U.S. foreign policy would advance both the national and rational self-interest of Americans, which is: to live and flourish under authentic freedom, true justice, and the rule of law, with individual rights to life, liberty, and property protected by government against the initiation of force or fraud by hostile foreigners. To be clear, this does not mean fighting unjustified wars in Viet Nam, Iraq or Libya.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richard...ation-of-illegal-wars-erodes-american-values/
 
at their height of power the taliban was also exercising a rather clear monopoly on power in the relatively stable regions they controlled. So that is hardly surprising. I'm sure if we and the afghan national forces weren't fighting an active insurgency similar successes could be had.

But other than that, what is your point?

Only that heroin supply is up around the world since we intervened in the country. It had pretty much dried up before then.
 
Well, you don't know the difference between a political war and a defensive war?



Among the most important treaties is the UN Charter; a Treaty in Force under US law, enacted after two global wars that bind all nations to only defensive wars against other nations that have attacked. This simple rule, more simple than many rules in sports we master in understanding, does not include an attack upon a nation from allegations that a resident within a country initiated a terror attack. According to the leadership of the FBI and CIA, there was no evidence of Afghan government participation in the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.examiner.com/article/afg...awful-orders-us-military-must-refuse-and-stop

Even a defensive war is political in nature. Certainly one could end a war by diplomatic means, but the result would be unfavorable compared to killing and having killed numerous people. (Note that by word choice even a "morally correct" war can be made to look immoral).

It strikes me that you have an issue with America. So you seek to define thugs that are not wars...as wars. Clandestine missions are not wars.
 
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