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Why brain dead means really dead

Funny, Sméagol, I said the same thing to my husband. I feel so awful for these people - I do, but I told him that they just do not understand what it means to be brain dead. They don't get it, and someone needs to teach them. They can have a heartbeat but that doesn't mean they are "alive."

My father died about 3 and a half years ago, and something similar happened to him with the blood clot. His legs were in a lot of pain, and my mother unknowingly massaged his legs to keep them from hurting. Apparently, according to the doctor, a clot broke loose and traveled up to his brain, and he had a massive stroke. His brain was without oxygen for 20 minutes, until the EMTs got there. He was already gone. He was breathing, but on a machine.

I saw a documentary a man who had a car accident and was in a coma for 19 years and woke up. He's kind of "slow" but he can walk and talk and he lives. I think this is a PERSONAL decision and not for you or I or anyone else to say. The family will "pull the plug" when THEY are ready.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-awakes-after-19-years-in-coma/
 
It's terribly sad to watch parents struggling to come to terms with the death of their child. The media, and all the consumers who are gobbling up that media coverage, needs to butt out and leave them to deal with their grief privately.

Reminds me of the South Park episode from years ago satirizing the Terri Schaivo story. Kenny played the role of Terri - suffering an accident and falling into a vegetative state. In the midst of the much-publicized national debate over whether to pull the plug or not they find a missing page of his will that reads "If i'm ever in a vegetative state please for the love of God do not show me in that condition on national television". :doh :lol:

Exactly, and all of the people making comments and saying that the family is wrong, have more than likely NEVER been in this position and have absolutely NO understanding of how difficult a decision that is to make. It's not for a bunch of strangers to tell the family that they are wrong. That is disgusting IMO.
 
I've read articles claiming it's possible but not probable over the years, wish I were in the habit of saving stuff I come across.

It's a shame, people might think you were making it up to win an argument. "Even the best machines available might be wrong so the dead person could still be alive" is a stretch too far.
 
Exactly, and all of the people making comments and saying that the family is wrong, have more than likely NEVER been in this position and have absolutely NO understanding of how difficult a decision that is to make. It's not for a bunch of strangers to tell the family that they are wrong. That is disgusting IMO.

It's a medical question that needs to be answered by doctors. The average person on the street is not qualified to make the call on whether someone is dead or not in non-obvious cases.

If it were simply about respecting the wishes of the family I'd be all for leaving her on the ventilator for as long as they want but it isn't that simple. We don't have a limitless supply of doctors and nurses and equipment and hospital beds. What happens when a "legally declared dead" person is supported on equipment that a "legally still alive" needs to stay alive? What happens if all of a sudden every parent/husband/wife argues that their "legally declared dead" child/spouse be left on a ventilator? And what about cost? I'd bet her medical bills are running into millions of dollars at this point. Unless they're wealthy the parents are paying for it. Is it right to force others to swallow millions in costs in an ultimately futile exercise?
 
EKG is heart. EEG is what you are thinking. I have been in the field 25 years or more, and have not seen a mistaken death diagnosis.
It is very ethically complicated, however I've run across articles and other references of faulty reads on EKG machines, which would happen if there was very minimal brain activity that the machine wouldn't pick up. The little girl probably is dead unfortunately but I would always worry about finishing it during a faulty read. I think the family really should be the ones to make that decision, but am not opposed to medical professionals gently discussing the situation with them to get to the proper decision. From what I've seen in this case the family has endured some bullying about their decision to keep her on the ventilator which to me is unacceptable, they are grieving and should be treated with the utmost respect and care at this time.
 
It's a medical question that needs to be answered by doctors. The average person on the street is not qualified to make the call on whether someone is dead or not in non-obvious cases.

If it were simply about respecting the wishes of the family I'd be all for leaving her on the ventilator for as long as they want but it isn't that simple. We don't have a limitless supply of doctors and nurses and equipment and hospital beds. What happens when a "legally declared dead" person is supported on equipment that a "legally still alive" needs to stay alive? What happens if all of a sudden every parent/husband/wife argues that their "legally declared dead" child/spouse be left on a ventilator? And what about cost? I'd bet her medical bills are running into millions of dollars at this point. Unless they're wealthy the parents are paying for it. Is it right to force others to swallow millions in costs in an ultimately futile exercise?

I'm sure the family is not thinking about that right now. They are just trying to come to terms with the loss of their child. Their entire world has just collapsed around them.
 
I'm sure the family is not thinking about that right now. They are just trying to come to terms with the loss of their child. Their entire world has just collapsed around them.

Indeed. I think they're in serious denial. This is a typical reaction to tragic news. I believe my parents went through denial when my youngest brother was born with Down Syndrome. They got more than one "second opinion" from doctors, but eventually came to terms with my brother's disability.
 
I wonder how much her obesity and overall health played a role in her death. General anesthesia can be tricky sometimes with young yet large patients I would assume.

Not so much her entire body being large, but short thick necks are very problematic.
 
Not so much her entire body being large, but short thick necks are very problematic.

Well, I was just considering that, given her large body habitus, it might take more anesthesia to put her under, and the fact that the organs and body of a 13-year-old are not fully matured, I wondered if that might have some potential negative effects.
 
Unless you get a 2nd opinion and THEN brain dead is DEAD dead. How many EEG's can be wrong?

It is really not just about an EEG. A clinician that allows a flat eeg to decide brain death wrong.

If you have a specialist that follows accepted protocols and declares brain death and a second one deciding the same thing......
 
And who says that she is being compared to a 60 year old man? Is "60 Year Old Man" the average for brain dead victims? :roll:

I am simply stating the facts that have been presented in this case that the heart usually stops within 72 hours. All accounts are that she was only on a breather and IV. As the LA Times article clearly states, all the mother wanted, if her daughter was truly dead, was for her heart to stop beating on its own. It didn't.

You are now throwing in a bunch of pointless guesswork for why her heart has kept beating. If it was beating artificially then by the mother's own statements it would have been stopped.

I am simply saying that no matter what you may have read, there really is no hard and fast rule for a body staying alive after brain death. You have millions of different types of situations that could potentially make that time frame shorter or longer. McMath would be on the spectrum of her body being maintained longer because she was young, without catastrophic pre-existing conditions, or major trauma.
 
Well, I was just considering that, given her large body habitus, it might take more anesthesia to put her under, and the fact that the organs and body of a 13-year-old are not fully matured, I wondered if that might have some potential negative effects.
Oh, for sure the anesthesia requirements could be larger, and not knowing what else they gave her through her IV, there could have certainly been lingering effects - but not this long.

I was thinking in terms of whatever crisis happened and the bleeding, that sent her into the spiral might have been more difficult to control.

But as for risk of surgery - yup major risk.
 
The word "miracle" is the single most abused word in the English language. Miracle comeback in sports, miracle finish in racing, It's a miracle we didn't get hurt, miracle weight loss, miracle cat fall from a tree, miracle achievement in science. Get the feeling there are no miracles?

A strange, illogical conclusion.

From your post, the logical conclusion would be that too many things that are not actual Miracles are wrongfully referred to as Miracles.
 
A strange, illogical conclusion.

From your post, the logical conclusion would be that too many things that are not actual Miracles are wrongfully referred to as Miracles.

I thought it's what he said?
 
I saw a documentary a man who had a car accident and was in a coma for 19 years and woke up. He's kind of "slow" but he can walk and talk and he lives. I think this is a PERSONAL decision and not for you or I or anyone else to say. The family will "pull the plug" when THEY are ready.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-awakes-after-19-years-in-coma/
I remember this case. It was bantered about the talk shows and news papers when Terri Schiavo was
in the news.

If I remember correctly, his deep coma (what laypeople think of as coma totally out, not awake, not aware)was only for a month or so. He was in a minimally conscious state.

Not a deep coma. Clearly no where near brain death. He was a person who might have been able to interact with his surroundings during that time, although his family may not have recognized a grunt or moan as "interacting". When he finally was able to say "pepsi" it was a leap, but not a leap from a down and out coma. Traumatic head injuries are substantially different in how they recover from non traumatic brain injuries.

I was always disgusted to see this case -that was touted by those surrounding Schiavo's parent's) - as proof that Terri could recover. The cases were in no way remotely similar.It was sad that folks were making the family believe this was possible for their daughter .Not just sad. Cruel.
 
I remember this case. It was bantered about the talk shows and news papers when Terri Schiavo was
in the news.

If I remember correctly, his deep coma (what laypeople think of as coma totally out, not awake, not aware)was only for a month or so. He was in a minimally conscious state.

Not a deep coma. Clearly no where near brain death. He was a person who might have been able to interact with his surroundings during that time, although his family may not have recognized a grunt or moan as "interacting". When he finally was able to say "pepsi" it was a leap, but not a leap from a down and out coma. Traumatic head injuries are substantially different in how they recover from non traumatic brain injuries.

I was always disgusted to see this case -that was touted by those surrounding Schiavo's parent's) - as proof that Terri could recover. The cases were in no way remotely similar.It was sad that folks were making the family believe this was possible for their daughter .Not just sad. Cruel.

Well how would anyone know if she isn't just in a deep coma as opposed to being brain dead. Doctors have misdiagnosed a deep coma as brain death before. It's not like it never happens. Seriously, you can just google it and see multiple cases. Not that this is the case here, but it's not impossible, and no matter what anyone else thinks or says it is a personal decision for the family, and more than likely they just need some time to come to terms with this.
 
Well how would anyone know if she isn't just in a deep coma as opposed to being brain dead. Doctors have misdiagnosed a deep coma as brain death before. It's not like it never happens. Seriously, you can just google it and see multiple cases. Not that this is the case here, but it's not impossible, and no matter what anyone else thinks or says it is a personal decision for the family, and more than likely they just need some time to come to terms with this.

Brain death is NOT a quick diagnosis.

Here is a link that will answer your questions.

American Academy of Neurology Guidelines for Brain Death Determination | Welcome to Clinical Operations | Life Alliance Organ Recovery Agency at Miller School of Medicine

When folks have linked evidence of misdiagnosis of brain death, it seems to be issues with the process - inexperienced (or with a harvesting agenda) clinicians not following proper protocols. If there is any thought that the clinicians at Childrens Hospital have not followed protocols properly, I am not hearing about it.
 
Well how would anyone know if she isn't just in a deep coma as opposed to being brain dead. Doctors have misdiagnosed a deep coma as brain death before. It's not like it never happens. Seriously, you can just google it and see multiple cases. Not that this is the case here, but it's not impossible, and no matter what anyone else thinks or says it is a personal decision for the family, and more than likely they just need some time to come to terms with this.

The medical report submitted to the court said that the girl's body was already decomposing. This is not a personal decision for the family. The girl is dead and her body is rotting. It is a public health issue for the doctors, nurses, and other patients in the hospital.
 
EKG is heart. EEG is what you are thinking. I have been in the field 25 years or more, and have not seen a mistaken death diagnosis.
Gotcha. My mom was a nurse so I have a general understanding of the equipment through her. I have read about false diagnosis before, but they are admittedly very rare, to the point that most people in the medical field will never see one.
 
EKG is heart. EEG is what you are thinking. I have been in the field 25 years or more, and have not seen a mistaken death diagnosis.

30 plus years for me - same thing. Never a mistaken death diagnosis.

The people surrounding the family of this child - well intentioned or not - are prolonging and complicating their grieving process - compounding the tragedy of it all. :(
 
I'm sure the family is not thinking about that right now. They are just trying to come to terms with the loss of their child. Their entire world has just collapsed around them.

I'm sure they're not either and in their position I can't say that wouldn't do the exact same thing. But that's all the more reason to take them out of the equation when determining whether the child has died or not.
 
The medical report submitted to the court said that the girl's body was already decomposing. This is not a personal decision for the family. The girl is dead and her body is rotting. It is a public health issue for the doctors, nurses, and other patients in the hospital.

Link please?
 
Link please?

Link. From the article:

"His comments came as papers issued for a district court case to discuss the original injunction, due to expire today, revealed the mountain the family have to climb. Dr Heidi Flori, a Children's Hospital Oakland paediatrician, wrote that there were clear indications that Jahi's body was deteriorating. She said that because of brain stem damage, Jahi could not regulate life sustaining functions such as heart rate, temperature and breathing. The tissues under her skin were losing their elasticity, and her muscles were contracting, she said. Her blood pressure spiked but was gradually declining and was now half what it was, she added, and blankets were needed to maintain a constant temperature."
 
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