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Why brain dead means really dead

Oh, it's so sad, such a cute little girl. :(
 
I would absolutely come do it after giving them time to say goodbye. Might even help them get over their denial.

Yeah, you're all heart, I can tell. Since you've been the one talking about money, please don't act like you'd do anything out of concern for the family. You've made it clear, that's not your concern.
 
Yeah, you're all heart, I can tell. Since you've been the one talking about money, please don't act like you'd do anything out of concern for the family. You've made it clear, that's not your concern.

Some people need to put themselves in this family's shoes, and imagine it was THEIR little girl. Oh sure, just pull the plug, easy peasy. :roll:
 
Some people need to put themselves in this family's shoes, and imagine it was THEIR little girl. Oh sure, just pull the plug, easy peasy. :roll:

Even better, "I'm gonna pull the plug, you got 10 minutes to say goodbye and I'm doing this out of concern for you. Ok, now move on."
 
Even better, "I'm gonna pull the plug, you got 10 minutes to say goodbye and I'm doing this out of concern for you. Ok, now move on."

The arrogance of some people is just astounding. As if they can know and dictate what is best for the family at a time like this. It's obvious that they don't understanding the grieving process and that acceptance that your loved one is gone forever and that you will never ever see that person again takes a little bit of time.
 
Yeah, you're all heart, I can tell. Since you've been the one talking about money, please don't act like you'd do anything out of concern for the family. You've made it clear, that's not your concern.

If you'd like to volunteer to pay the hospital bills...

I care more about the hypocrisy of it all, as i explained. Hospitals routinely treat the mentally ill and elderly and otherwise disabled like trash and boot them out at earliest convenience. I see no reason this should be an exception. All you've done lately is make a caricature out of everything i say, like i *totally don't care at all* instead of i *have different priorities from you.* I do care about their suffering, but i care more about consistency and saving millions in useless hospital expense.

You will criticize me no matter what. If i just say "Yeah i'll pull the plug myself," you'll call me a heartless bastard. Anything other than leaving her on...death support indefinitely, is horrific of me.
 
Even better, "I'm gonna pull the plug, you got 10 minutes to say goodbye and I'm doing this out of concern for you. Ok, now move on."

It would take me at least a few hours to get there by plane
 
If you'd like to volunteer to pay the hospital bills...

I care more about the hypocrisy of it all, as i explained. Hospitals routinely treat the mentally ill and elderly and otherwise disabled like trash and boot them out at earliest convenience. I see no reason this should be an exception. All you've done lately is make a caricature out of everything i say, like i *totally don't care at all* instead of i *have different priorities from you.* I do care about their suffering, but i care more about consistency and saving millions in useless hospital expense.

You will criticize me no matter what. If i just say "Yeah i'll pull the plug myself," you'll call me a heartless bastard. Anything other than leaving her on...death support indefinitely, is horrific of me.

You don't know that she would be left on life support indefinitely. You have to wonder about the motivations of people who seem to be in such a hurry to pull the plug, disregarding the family's feelings. It is THEIR daughter. If it was your child, then you can go pull the plug ASAP.
 
You don't know that she would be left on life support indefinitely. You have to wonder about the motivations of people who seem to be in such a hurry to pull the plug, disregarding the family's feelings. It is THEIR daughter. If it was your child, then you can go pull the plug ASAP.

If we're going to let parents decide entirely how to run the health care system, it will go bankrupt beyond repair within a year. The strawman you build is that i never regarded how they felt, which is simply not true.
 
If we're going to let parents decide entirely how to run the health care system, it will go bankrupt beyond repair within a year. The strawman you build is that i never regarded how they felt, which is simply not true.

Talk about a strawman. No one said anything about parents deciding how to run the healthcare system. I am saying that it's not up to YOU how or when this family makes their decision. YOU and your opinions are inconsequential to their decision.
 
Talk about a strawman. No one said anything about parents deciding how to run the healthcare system. I am saying that it's not up to YOU how or when this family makes their decision. YOU and your opinions are inconsequential to their decision.

No kidding, it's up to a court. I'm arguing how i think it *should* be, which is the point of debate.

Btw, this isn't their daughter anymore. Their daughter is dead. If she was on genuine life support, that would be another matter.
 
They've been ventilating and feeding a corpse for weeks now . It's grotesque.

If they want to keep her body in state at home, all power to em. But hospitals are for the living, not the dead.
 
They've been ventilating and feeding a corpse for weeks now . It's grotesque.

If they want to keep her body in state at home, all power to em. But hospitals are for the living, not the dead.

I just listened to the latest Point Of Inquiry podcast episode on Itunes, which deals with this issue in an interview with Dr. Arthur Kaplan - the medical ethicist referred to in the CNN article in the OP. One of Dr. Kaplan's main points is that ever since the 70's...when respirators and other life support technologies started finding their way into hospitals, Doctors, for the first time in human history had to deal with situations where people were essentially dead because of cessation of brain function and would never recover...yet the medical technologies could keep many of the autonomic system's functions continuing on, and they had to deal with the question: is this a living person in a deep coma or a corpse that is being artificially animated?

I underlined "life support" in the first paragraph, because one of the points Kaplan makes is that the language surrounding these issues are clouded by the public perception of medical terms - like life support! To many people, that phrase conjures up the impression of a person being alive but unconscious, when in reality, they may be just a physical body with no conscious awareness and not even any unconscious brain functions.

This issue of when to pull the plug, is going to become even more crucial for resolving in the near future, as our populations age and more and more people start needing expensive medical care in their later and final years of life. The last thing we need is putting these decisions under the control of family members, because they may often be the last people to be willing to make a rational decision on when to let nature take its course. I imagine this is more so in the cases like this one - of a child, but young adults may turn into unintended icons for family members to hold prayer vigils around and refuse to bring it to a close.....the Terry Schiavo fiasco jumps out immediately as one that was turned into a circus by concern-troll republican lawmakers in Florida...who were well into the process of slashing Medicaid and hospital funding for the poor, but were fully willing to have the State of Florida cover the estimated $500,000 annual costs of keeping Terry Schiavo functioning!

That's why clear rules and guidelines need to be drafted that will distinguish between someone in a coma, and a living corpse. On the latter - Dr. Kaplan mentioned that this and other notorious cases, like one in Texas - where a pregnant woman has been lying braindead from the point of 16 weeks into her pregnancy, and the husband and other family members want to pull the plug, but the hospital refuses because they are afraid they will be charged with terminating a pregnancy by Texas's idiotic laws! So, they are animating a corpse in the hope that it can give birth to a healthy baby....but somehow this doesn't come across as creepy and revolting to Republicans and non-R conservatives!

Over time, the bodies of the braindead deceased will begin to decay and die, so according to Kaplan, the medical experts who push the ethic of doing everything conceivable to keep a physical body animated, may be in breach of medical ethics themselves, because what they are doing can be interpreted as desecrating a corpse in the latter stages of suspended animation.
 
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I just listened to the latest Point Of Inquiry podcast episode on Itunes, which deals with this issue in an interview with Dr. Arthur Kaplan - the medical ethicist referred to in the CNN article in the OP. One of Dr. Kaplan's main points is that ever since the 70's...when respirators and other life support technologies started finding their way into hospitals, Doctors, for the first time in human history had to deal with situations where people were essentially dead because of cessation of brain function and would never recover...yet the medical technologies could keep many of the autonomic system's functions continuing on, and they had to deal with the question: is this a living person in a deep coma or a corpse that is being artificially animated?

I underlined "life support" in the first paragraph, because one of the points Kaplan makes is that the language surrounding these issues are clouded by the public perception of medical terms - like life support! To many people, that phrase conjures up the impression of a person being alive but unconscious, when in reality, they may be just a physical body with no conscious awareness and not even any unconscious brain functions.

This issue of when to pull the plug, is going to become even more crucial for resolving in the near future, as our populations age and more and more people start needing expensive medical care in their later and final years of life. The last thing we need is putting these decisions under the control of family members, because they may often be the last people to be willing to make a rational decision on when to let nature take its course. I imagine this is more so in the cases like this one - of a child, but young adults may turn into unintended icons for family members to hold prayer vigils around and refuse to bring it to a close.....the Terry Schiavo fiasco jumps out immediately as one that was turned into a circus by concern-troll republican lawmakers in Florida...who were well into the process of slashing Medicaid and hospital funding for the poor, but were fully willing to have the State of Florida cover the estimated $500,000 annual costs of keeping Terry Schiavo functioning!

That's why clear rules and guidelines need to be drafted that will distinguish between someone in a coma, and a living corpse. On the latter - Dr. Kaplan mentioned that this and other notorious cases, like one in Texas - where a pregnant woman has been lying braindead from the point of 16 weeks into her pregnancy, and the husband and other family members want to pull the plug, but the hospital refuses because they are afraid they will be charged with terminating a pregnancy by Texas's idiotic laws! So, they are animating a corpse in the hope that it can give birth to a healthy baby....but somehow this doesn't come across as creepy and revolting to Republicans and non-R conservatives!

Over time, the bodies of the braindead deceased will begin to decay and die, so according to Kaplan, the medical experts who push the ethic of doing everything conceivable to keep a physical body animated, may be in breach of medical ethics themselves, because what they are doing can be interpreted as desecrating a corpse in the latter stages of suspended animation.
There are clear guidelines -very clear- that distinguish between coma and brain death. She has clearly and completely and legally been declared dead. Nothing on that lines has changed. What the lawyer was doing taking the case is beyond me.

I would be very interested to see how this case (13 year old McMath) went from brain death to media and lawyer. I would be curious if they were approached or they initiated contact with the media and lawyer willing to fight for keeping a dead child on "life" support.

When someone is grieving, especially if they are medically naïve, they are very susceptible to outside influence. Once the media circus began, there was no turning back.

What a tragic prolongation of the grieving period.
 
Here's something completely worthless. The Pygmies in central Africa have three levels of death. The first is when a person is declared "dead", which means they are sick. The second is "completely dead", which means the person is gravely ill. The third is "finally and completely dead", which means the person is dead. Everybody needs to know this because it's completely useless, or maybe I should say finally and completely useless. But if you were sequestered with a Pygmy tribe in central Africa, it would be helpful. Maybe.
 
Here's something completely worthless. The Pygmies in central Africa have three levels of death. The first is when a person is declared "dead", which means they are sick. The second is "completely dead", which means the person is gravely ill. The third is "finally and completely dead", which means the person is dead. Everybody needs to know this because it's completely useless, or maybe I should say finally and completely useless. But if you were sequestered with a Pygmy tribe in central Africa, it would be helpful. Maybe.

This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :lamo:

Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:
 
This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :lamo:

Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

Good morning to you, as well. I doubt it's useful except to point out that the Pygmies view the whole thing - sickness and death - as a function of the usefulness of the affected person to the tribe. This is not to suggest that human value to the Pygmies is limited to usefulness, because they do view worth as inherent. Plus, they have a very good sense of humor.
 
This is a great example of why I like DP. Where else can I read about a Pygmy tribe in Central Africa and their views on death? I needed to know that, because who knows when that knowledge is bound to come in handy? :lamo:

Good morning, humbolt. :2wave:

Just curious, do we have any Central African Pygmy coroners here?:lamo
 
Good morning to you, as well. I doubt it's useful except to point out that the Pygmies view the whole thing - sickness and death - as a function of the usefulness of the affected person to the tribe. This is not to suggest that human value to the Pygmies is limited to usefulness, because they do view worth as inherent. Plus, they have a very good sense of humor.

As do you, my friend! :thumbs:
 
If you'd like to volunteer to pay the hospital bills...

I care more about the hypocrisy of it all, as i explained. Hospitals routinely treat the mentally ill and elderly and otherwise disabled like trash and boot them out at earliest convenience. I see no reason this should be an exception. All you've done lately is make a caricature out of everything i say, like i *totally don't care at all* instead of i *have different priorities from you.* I do care about their suffering, but i care more about consistency and saving millions in useless hospital expense.

You will criticize me no matter what. If i just say "Yeah i'll pull the plug myself," you'll call me a heartless bastard. Anything other than leaving her on...death support indefinitely, is horrific of me.


From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.
 
From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.

Hard to say.

We are really not sure of what happened. There is a reason that informed consent is required in each and every planned surgical case. Things happen and with and without malpractice.

Frankly, now weeks after her death, evidence for and against the hospital will probably be less valuable upon autopsy.
 
From what I think is happening, the bills are either being paid by private donations or the new facility is writing it off. That's just because it a high profile case probably. Plus, I'm sure this family is going to be set once the malpractice suit with the hospital is settled. A child going in for tonsillitis dies during the procedure? IMHO a multi-million dollar settlement.

"writing it off" = costs for everyone else goes up and is a separate issue from any lawsuit

if there's private donations, that's imbecilic of whoever's doing it, but so be it. I just hope it isn't some church that gets tax free land under the guise of "charity." This girl is dead.
 
There are clear guidelines -very clear- that distinguish between coma and brain death. She has clearly and completely and legally been declared dead. Nothing on that lines has changed. What the lawyer was doing taking the case is beyond me.

I would be very interested to see how this case (13 year old McMath) went from brain death to media and lawyer. I would be curious if they were approached or they initiated contact with the media and lawyer willing to fight for keeping a dead child on "life" support.

When someone is grieving, especially if they are medically naïve, they are very susceptible to outside influence. Once the media circus began, there was no turning back.

What a tragic prolongation of the grieving period.
There may be opportunistic lawyers lurking in the McMath case, but religion seems to be the prime motivator for absolutist and extreme positions on life issues. Our Judeochristian traditions contain a dualistic view of mind and body...with an ethereal, immaterial mind that controls a physical body. Many....make that most people are not up to speed with the science of how the brain functions - especially the fact that every single mental event that we experience has to correlate with physical brain function! If the higher cortex layers of the brain cannot function, we have no mind...or no conscious mental experiences. If the cortex is permanently damaged and cannot recover, then they are brain dead, and there is no real point to prolonging their lives in a vegetative state. We don't find any evidence for a "soul" or some sort of immaterial mind at work in any part of the process; but a lot of people believe in souls....trapped inside our bodies while we're alive apparently....and that makes them more likely to hold out hope for a miracle to bring the patient magically back to life.

As I understand it, the main difference between coma and long term coma (persistent vegetative state) and brain death, are the level of brain damage in the cerebral cortex...which would determine the likelihood of recovery or partial recovery. When there is no activity in the higher cortex areas of the brain, there is no capacity for conscious awareness. So, if the damage to the cortex layers is extensive, the neurologists will determine that the patient will never have the capacity to regain consciousness. This state of having no awareness can be considered the equivalent of death if it is permanent.
 
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I usually get in trouble in this section but I'll give it another shot.

(CNN) -- A person who is brain dead may appear alive -- there may be a heartbeat, they may look like they're breathing, their skin may still be warm to the touch. But doctors say there is no life when brain activity ceases.

Why brain dead is really dead - CNN.com


I'm sure you've heard the story of the little girl from California who went in for minor tonsil surgery and due to complications was eventually declared "brain dead." A very sad event indeed but further complicating the tragedy is her parents don't seem to understand what brain dead means.

About 10 years ago a elderly family friend experienced a similar fate. A blood clot in his leg traveled through his body, lodged in his lungs and his wife found him passed out on the floor. He'd apparently gone about 20 minutes with no oxygen getting to his brain, was on a ventilator at the hospital and declared brain dead. He looked like he was sleeping and would even toss and turn a little but according to the doctors his brain had died and absent a miracle he could not regain consciousness. From a medical science perspective, respirators and feeding tubes only keep organs alive although the person is in all other respects deceased.

Its not a pleasant topic to discuss but Jahi McMath's passing, as tragic as it is, I think presents a teaching opportunity.

People who have been declared "brain dead" have "come back to life" and some have even gone on to lead fully functional lives.

Hell, some doctors cant even legally declare someone dead after it appears obvious the patent is dead. It's not common but people have woken up on the autopsy table, or even in their own caskets.....

People have had half their brain removed (tumors/accidents etc) for ****s sake and go on to lead fine lives.

The notion that our medical community knows everything there is to know about the human body is about as insane as someone saying the exact same thing 300 years ago.

There is plenty to be learned - especially in neuroscience.
 
Who has had an EEG and declared brain dead and come back to lead a fully functional life?
People who have been declared "brain dead" have "come back to life" and some have even gone on to lead fully functional lives.

Hell, some doctors cant even legally declare someone dead after it appears obvious the patent is dead. It's not common but people have woken up on the autopsy table, or even in their own caskets.....

People have had half their brain removed (tumors/accidents etc) for ****s sake and go on to lead fine lives.

The notion that our medical community knows everything there is to know about the human body is about as insane as someone saying the exact same thing 300 years ago.

There is plenty to be learned - especially in neuroscience.
 
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