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Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I have no problems with private discrimination, everyone does it daily. I do have a problem with the state discriminating.
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As long as there are laws, there is discrimination. If a person violates a law, they are going to be treated differently than someone who doesn't violate a law. That is a very basic form of discrimination that is accepted and viewed as within the public interest in so and therefore justified, but it is still a form of discrimination. Having citizenship rules for a country is itself a form of discrimination. It treats citizens different than noncitizens, discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
As long as there are laws, there is discrimination. If a person violates a law, they are going to be treated differently than someone who doesn't violate a law. That is a very basic form of discrimination that is accepted and viewed as within the public interest in so and therefore justified, but it is still a form of discrimination. Having citizenship rules for a country is itself a form of discrimination. It treats citizens different than noncitizens, discrimination.
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And there is also racial and gender based discrimination within the state.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
The state discriminates, I am not fine with state discrimination.
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That's what I'm saying, you should be OK with the court ruling since it restricts state discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Ikari said:
That's what I'm saying, you should be OK with the court ruling since it restricts state discrimination.
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I am not okay with state intervention into any marriage.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I am not okay with state intervention into any marriage.
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Well there you go then. You have to accept same sex marriage till you can end the marriage license. Only way to uphold that statement.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
And there is also racial and gender based discrimination within the state.
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Yes there is. I am simply saying that there is always forms of discrimination within any state, any government. It will exist. The key within our government is that this discrimination must be seen as justifiable, furthering a state interest of some kind. Not all of it we currently have is truly justified, but we are working our way closer to having as little as possible to be necessary. Eliminating gender restrictions on marriage is just one way to reach that point.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
Yes there is. I am simply saying that there is always forms of discrimination within any state, any government. It will exist. The key within our government is that this discrimination must be seen as justifiable, furthering a state interest of some kind. Not all of it we currently have is truly justified, but we are working our way closer to having as little as possible to be necessary. Eliminating gender restrictions on marriage is just one way to reach that point.
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I do not support state discrimination as ever "justified."

Ikari said:
Well there you go then. You have to accept same sex marriage till you can end the marriage license. Only way to uphold that statement.
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I do not have to accept any state activity.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I do not support state discrimination as ever "justified."

I do not have to accept any state activity.
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Then you support anarchy.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I do not have to accept any state activity.
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It's hypocrisy to say that you don't support state discrimination by supporting state discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Ikari said:
It's hypocrisy to say that you don't support state discrimination by supporting state discrimination.
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I do not support state discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I do not support state discrimination.
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Yet you shall if you do not push for legalization of SSM, as then you are functionally endorsing the discrimination by State.

This is merely logic, and not very tough logic at that.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I do not support state discrimination.
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Yes you do, because you're opposing an end to state discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I do not have to accept any state activity.
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Well it kind of sounds like you do:

scatt said:
Except the state is involved, which means I am forced into their business through taxation, and other anti-property laws.
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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Lursa said:
Well it kind of sounds like you do
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Cool for you?

Deuce said:
Yes you do, because you're opposing an end to state discrimination.
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Except the state is still discriminating. so, no.

Ikari said:
if you do not push for legalization of SSM
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Supporting the state banning or enforcing discrimination in marriage or anything else is supporting state discrimination. I do not support state discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Ockham said:
The answer is there is no personal harm. It's the question though that's the problem. If your next door neighbor (we'll call him Jimmy) gets his brains blown out during a drug deal 30 miles away - what harm is caused to you? That would assume then that people killing other people, as long as it's not you, is fine. The assumption that two dudes getting married causes harm is the fallacy.... does something have to cause personal harm for someone to be against it? One would think so given the question. (That may be why you don't get a straight answer).
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so what harm to society is there from two men or two women marrying? You have to prove harm to take someone's rights away
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Okay, well I do not support state discrimination for any reason, and most certainly not the state racial and gender discrimination that occurs.
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So you're ok with 5 yr olds driving? interesting.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
So you're ok with 5 yr olds driving? interesting.
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Sounds like a bad parenting issue.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Deuce said:
And my point, essentially, is that they can never actually specify how SSM is hurting society. It's always "it hurts society by eroding our moral fabric" or something equally vague. Prop 8's legal team failed spectacularly to actually demonstrate any specific harm it causes. People are free to hold these beliefs, but "It's bad because I say it's bad" is not something that tends to sway a court in an equal protection challenge.
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Heck, the pro-prop 8 side, during the Walker trial, admitted our kids would be better off if SSM was legal and that it was more in line with our values to have it legal! Totally agree, they failed spectacularly to prove any harm, and actually supported the side of SSM!

LOVED reading the transcripts of that trial!
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Sounds like a bad parenting issue.
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but you're saying it's up to the parents, not the state.

So if I think my 5 yr old is a decent driver, I should be able to let them drive.

Your argument, not mine. I'm ok with the state discriminating based on the age of the driver. You don't want that.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
but you're saying it's up to the parents, not the state.

So if I think my 5 yr old is a decent driver, I should be able to let them drive.

Your argument, not mine. I'm ok with the state discriminating based on the age of the driver. You don't want that.
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I'm saying it is currently up to the parents and not the state? I do not believe that occurred.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

paddymcdougall said:
so what harm to society is there from two men or two women marrying? You have to prove harm to take someone's rights away
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Nope - I used the example of atheists suing to remove a cross in the middle of no where. It's not harming anyone yet it goes to court and is removed because a minority of people don't like it.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
Sounds like a bad parenting issue.
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Just allowing parents to have control over their children's lives and make decisions for them is discrimination, since it puts one person in charge of another. It is absolutely viewed as discrimination that is good for society as a whole, but it is still discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

roguenuke said:
Just allowing parents to have control over their children's lives and make decisions for them is discrimination, since it puts one person in charge of another. It is absolutely viewed as discrimination that is good for society as a whole, but it is still discrimination.
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I have no problem with private discrimination.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

scatt said:
I'm saying it is currently up to the parents and not the state? I do not believe that occurred.
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You are against discrimination by the state. Currently states discriminated against kids by not letting them drive. Therefore, you are ok with 5 yr olds driving.
 
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