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Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage[W:780]

Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

You claimed that marriage or same sex marriage laws were not part of the Constitution. They are covered by it, even if they are not specifically mentioned and the part is what I mentioned, EPC of the 14th.

Oh, you are trying to claim that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment covers redefining marriage? It was to protect the rights of slaves. Nothing to do with marriage at all.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

7 million votes for prop 8, about 5 million registered republicans (some percentage are christian conservatives, some percentage are not, some percentage didn't even vote). At least 2 million democrats and independents were against it in a democrat windfall election.

Okay, so? Most likely it was more than that. Still doesn't change anything I said. People are not required to vote with their party, even if they are registered with a certain party. There are actually numerous Republicans (registered and everything) that support same sex marriage being legal. Just as there are numerous Democrats who are against same sex marriage (granted, there are most definitely more Repubs against same sex marriage than Dems against it, just as there are more Dems for it than Repubs). Again, does not change any contention that I made. I said nothing about what party affiliation anyone was registered with, but rather mentioned conservative Christians and how they would likely vote when it comes to same sex marriage and how they may in fact change that view and therefore their vote on that particular issue.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Oh, you are trying to claim that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment covers redefining marriage? It was to protect the rights of slaves. Nothing to do with marriage at all.

It worked when it came to interracial marriage bans. Loving v VA. It protects the right of all citizens to have equal protection of the laws. Do a little more research, and you may learn something about what all is covered under the EPC. I guarantee you are wrong about it just protecting the rights of slaves. In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with the rights of slaves since it was put into place after slavery was outlawed.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

It worked when it came to interracial marriage bans. Loving v VA. It protects the right of all citizens to have equal protection of the laws. Do a little more research, and you may learn something about what all is covered under the EPC. I guarantee you are wrong about it just protecting the rights of slaves. In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with the rights of slaves since it was put into place after slavery was outlawed.

No, you are not now trying to claim that one of the "slavery amendments" (the 13, 14, 15th amendments) has nothing to do with slavery. You think that that civil rights were all squared up when slavery ended? And you are asking me to do more research??? Jesus, what in Hell am I dealing with here?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

No, you are not now trying to claim that one of the "slavery amendments" (the 13, 14, 15th amendments) has nothing to do with slavery. You think that that civil rights were all squared up when slavery ended? And you are asking me to do more research??? Jesus, what in Hell am I dealing with here?
They are not called slavery amendments. They are commonly referred to as the "Civil War Amendments." The amendment that abolished slavery was the 13th. There is nothing in the 14th amendment limiting its application to slavery. Roguenuke is absolutely right. Here is text from the amendment:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The text is clear. Slavery is not the only thing that constitutes a violation of due process and equal protection.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

No, you are not now trying to claim that one of the "slavery amendments" (the 13, 14, 15th amendments) has nothing to do with slavery. You think that that civil rights were all squared up when slavery ended? And you are asking me to do more research??? Jesus, what in Hell am I dealing with here?

They were no longer slaves once they were freed, which was taken care of by the 13th Amendment. Which means there is no way that the 14th Amendment was meant to only protect the rights of slaves. It in fact protects the rights of all citizens, particularly from the states and the laws of the various states.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I have posted occasionally elsewhere that someday, we will look back at this political battle and be embarrassed that our society was so ignorant...even if unintentionally so...much like we do now looking back at those who chose to deny women and blacks equal rights...or to even consider them less or less deserving.

I do not want to be part of the generation who 'prevented' gays from marrying and establishing their equal rights in our society. I dont want to look back and be embarrassed.

I totally agree!
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

You claimed that marriage or same sex marriage laws were not part of the Constitution. They are covered by it, even if they are not specifically mentioned and the part is what I mentioned, EPC of the 14th.

Agree.

Anthony might want to look up the court cases of prisoners wanting to marry; the SC has declared there is a right to marry.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Its only been 5 years. Not much has changed. There hasn't been a huge wave in support of gay marriage in CA because for the most part, the state was already in support of gay marriage.

Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.


It was voted against in 2008. That is what we have been trying to tell you. Votes are meaningless in this debate when it comes to validity because they become outdated pretty shortly after they occur, particularly if they are taken on the cusp of an raising trend where the vote did not reflect that trend, but only by a small margin, which is exactly what happened with Prop 8. Basically it rode the very coattails of the downslide of support for banning same sex marriage in California public opinion and squeaked in at the right time. It likely would not have even passed a year later, let alone 5 years, as it has now been.

The reason that it would be easier to get same sex marriage to pass in this state now is because of all the reasons we see the rising trend in same sex across the US. The majority of the opposition comes from two fronts, conservative Christians and older generations. Older generations naturally grow old and die. That is part of life. That dwindles those numbers at a pretty steady pace while the number of supporters for same sex marriage when it comes to voters each year because each year we have more people reaching voting age. There is also a slow decline in conservative Christians, especially those so fixed in their beliefs that they hold onto them despite changing opinion of the world around them.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Its only been 5 years. Not much has changed. There hasn't been a huge wave in support of gay marriage in CA because for the most part, the state was already in support of gay marriage.

Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.

Actually, the thought that Prop 8 passed because of the black turnout has been pretty much proven wrong.
DoorQ.Com | REAL SCIENCE: Did African Americans Cause Prop 8 to Pass?
But the notion that Prop 8 passed because of the Obama turnout surge is silly. Exit pollssuggest that first-time voters — the vast majority of whom were driven to turn out by Obama (he won 83 percent [!] of their votes) — voted against Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. More experienced voters voted for the measure 56-44, however, providing for its passage. Now, it’s true that if new voters had voted against Prop 8 at the same rates that they voted for Obama, the measure probably would have failed. But that does not mean that the new voters were harmful on balance — they were helpful on balance. If California’s electorate had been the same as it was in 2004, Prop 8 would have passed by a wider margin.

At the end of the day, Prop 8′s passage was more a generational matter than a racial one. If nobody over the age of 65 had voted, Prop 8 would have failed by a point or two. It appears that the generational splits may be larger within minority communities than among whites, although the data on this is sketchy.

Prop 8 won because the prop-prop 8 side had a LOT of money from the catholic and mormon churches; plus, they were extremely well-organized. The anti-prop 8 side ran a lousy campaign, not thinking the ballot measure had a chance; by the time they got organized, they were outspent and out organized.

There is no way that Prop 8 would pass if it was on the ballot today. The SSM side is more organized; people now know same sex couples and have realized that allowing it doesn't destroy society; people have seen it happening around the country; and I doubt the mormons would spend as much money nowadays on it (catholics still might, though)

A Feb 2013 poll showed California for SSM 61% to 31%; no, that's not a vote, but it's a good indication that prop 8 would not pass if voted on today, regardless of who is on the presidential ballot.
Same-sex marriage in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2010, much less 5 years ago, the numbers were 46% favored, 44% opposed, so yes, there has been a dramatic shift (numbers from same wikipedia article as above)
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I'll take the word of the LA Times over "The Gay SciFi, Fantasy and Horror Site".


Actually, the thought that Prop 8 passed because of the black turnout has been pretty much proven wrong.
DoorQ.Com | REAL SCIENCE: Did African Americans Cause Prop 8 to Pass?


Prop 8 won because the prop-prop 8 side had a LOT of money from the catholic and mormon churches; plus, they were extremely well-organized. The anti-prop 8 side ran a lousy campaign, not thinking the ballot measure had a chance; by the time they got organized, they were outspent and out organized.

There is no way that Prop 8 would pass if it was on the ballot today. The SSM side is more organized; people now know same sex couples and have realized that allowing it doesn't destroy society; people have seen it happening around the country; and I doubt the mormons would spend as much money nowadays on it (catholics still might, though)

A Feb 2013 poll showed California for SSM 61% to 31%; no, that's not a vote, but it's a good indication that prop 8 would not pass if voted on today, regardless of who is on the presidential ballot.
Same-sex marriage in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2010, much less 5 years ago, the numbers were 46% favored, 44% opposed, so yes, there has been a dramatic shift (numbers from same wikipedia article as above)
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I'll take the word of the LA Times over "The Gay SciFi, Fantasy and Horror Site".

How about the word of several main stream media sources that say the same thing?

How Proposition 8 passed in California — and why it wouldn’t today

Including the LA times:

Prop. 8 ruling parallels societal change - latimes.com

This is what public opinion has been doing when it comes to same sex marriage throughout the US at least. The graph is easy to see and the shape would pretty much be the same for California, with the only differences being when the crossover happened and maybe some very small changes to the slopes of the lines.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/26/how-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage-is-changing-and-what-it-means/?_r=0
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Prop 8 passed in 2008 because of the black turnout. They turned out in large numbers because of Obama and they're also anti-gay as a group. It is true that if you held the vote today it would probably be voted down because of the lower black turnout. However, if it was on the ballot again when a black was running for president it would probably pass again.


African-American's voting in support of Prop 8 = 58%

African-American's voting as a percentage of the vote in Prop 8 = 7%

The meme that "it was blacks that passed Prop 8" is not true, actually they were 7th in line. Age, Party Affiliation, Political Leaning and Age were the highest indicators.

The largest demographics were:

Conservative = 82% (36% of vote count)
Republican = 81% (34% of vote count)
Weekly Religious Attendance = 70% (45% of vote count)
65+ Age = 67% (23% of vote count)
No Gay Family Members = 60% (26% of vote count)
Hispanics = 59%% (14% of vote count)
African-American = 58% (7% of vote count)​


http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/pi_prop8_1_6_09.pdf


>>>>
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

The first article supports my point:

The discrepancy? African American voters, who were overwhelmingly in favor of banning same sex marriage (70 percent supported Proposition 8) even as they supported Obama even more heavily (94 percent). And, to a lesser degree, Hispanic voters followed that same trend -- backing Prop. 8 by a 53 percent to 47 percent margin while giving President Obama 74 percent.


The explanation? Many largely black churches supported Prop. 8 while Hispanics, a heavily Catholic community, were more naturally inclined to side with their faith -- and against gay marriage.

The second article is an opinion piece and the NY Times blog (surprise!) only looks at first time voters.

Nothing has been "debunked". Just opinions and strawman arguments

How about the word of several main stream media sources that say the same thing?

How Proposition 8 passed in California — and why it wouldn’t today

Including the LA times:

Prop. 8 ruling parallels societal change - latimes.com

This is what public opinion has been doing when it comes to same sex marriage throughout the US at least. The graph is easy to see and the shape would pretty much be the same for California, with the only differences being when the crossover happened and maybe some very small changes to the slopes of the lines.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/26/how-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage-is-changing-and-what-it-means/?_r=0
 
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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

The percentage of vote county doesn't consider voter turnout. With 58% of black support and the increase of voter turnout by black voters, you're going to have a skew in favor of prop 8. The fact that 82% of conservatives, for example, voted for it doesn't mean it swung the vote - especially in Ca.

African-American's voting in support of Prop 8 = 58%

African-American's voting as a percentage of the vote in Prop 8 = 7%

The meme that "it was blacks that passed Prop 8" is not true, actually they were 7th in line. Age, Party Affiliation, Political Leaning and Age were the highest indicators.

The largest demographics were:

Conservative = 82% (36% of vote count)
Republican = 81% (34% of vote count)
Weekly Religious Attendance = 70% (45% of vote count)
65+ Age = 67% (23% of vote count)
No Gay Family Members = 60% (26% of vote count)
Hispanics = 59%% (14% of vote count)
African-American = 58% (7% of vote count)​


http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/pi_prop8_1_6_09.pdf


>>>>
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

The first article supports my point:

The discrepancy? African American voters, who were overwhelmingly in favor of banning same sex marriage (70 percent supported Proposition 8) even as they supported Obama even more heavily (94 percent). And, to a lesser degree, Hispanic voters followed that same trend -- backing Prop. 8 by a 53 percent to 47 percent margin while giving President Obama 74 percent.


The explanation? Many largely black churches supported Prop. 8 while Hispanics, a heavily Catholic community, were more naturally inclined to side with their faith -- and against gay marriage.

The second article is an opinion piece and the NY Times blog (surprise!) only looks at first time voters.

Nothing has been "debunked". Just opinions and strawman arguments

They both debunk your contention that public opinion on same sex marriage has not shifted over the last 5 years. It simply is not true. The vast majority of experts in sociology, voting statistics/predicting, and politics in general will tell you that public support for same sex marriage in California, like the rest of the country, has increased in the last 5 years and it is highly unlikely that Prop 8 would pass if a vote were taken now, or even a couple of years ago.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I fully believe that opinions on same sex marriages have changed - my point was that you're not going to see a dramatic shift in CA since it already had strong support. Show me some numbers on changes in african american/hispanic opinion and you may have something since my argument is that the turnout of these two groups - or at least blacks - swung the vote. Polls are polls, elections are elections.

They both debunk your contention that public opinion on same sex marriage has not shifted over the last 5 years. It simply is not true. The vast majority of experts in sociology, voting statistics/predicting, and politics in general will tell you that public support for same sex marriage in California, like the rest of the country, has increased in the last 5 years and it is highly unlikely that Prop 8 would pass if a vote were taken now, or even a couple of years ago.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I fully believe that opinions on same sex marriages have changed - my point was that you're not going to see a dramatic shift in CA since it already had strong support. Show me some numbers on changes in african american/hispanic opinion and you may have something since my argument is that the turnout of these two groups - or at least blacks - swung the vote. Polls are polls, elections are elections.

It still saw a shift. And the vote had a margin of 4%. It wouldn't take a major shift, but in reality, you can't show that there wouldn't be a major shift still. Many people have publicly expressed their shift in opinion on this matter and there are still older people involved in that vote in 2008 that may no longer be with us, replaced by younger people.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

African-American's voting in support of Prop 8 = 58%

African-American's voting as a percentage of the vote in Prop 8 = 7%

The meme that "it was blacks that passed Prop 8" is not true, actually they were 7th in line. Age, Party Affiliation, Political Leaning and Age were the highest indicators.

The largest demographics were:

Conservative = 82% (36% of vote count)
Republican = 81% (34% of vote count)
Weekly Religious Attendance = 70% (45% of vote count)
65+ Age = 67% (23% of vote count)
No Gay Family Members = 60% (26% of vote count)
Hispanics = 59%% (14% of vote count)
African-American = 58% (7% of vote count)


http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/pi_prop8_1_6_09.pdf


>>>>


The percentage of vote county doesn't consider voter turnout. With 58% of black support and the increase of voter turnout by black voters, you're going to have a skew in favor of prop 8.


Ummmm

7% of vote count is their measurement against voter turn out. The above didn't say they were 7% of the population, it said they were 7% of the votes counted.

The fact that 82% of conservatives, for example, voted for it doesn't mean it swung the vote - especially in Ca.


So let me get this straight you think a 58% vote by 7% of the vote count had more of an influence on the outcome than an 82% vote by 36% of the vote count.

Do you seriously just try to say that Conservatives didn't have as much impact as African-American's who voted both at a lower percentage of support and at over 5 times less in volume?


>>>>
 
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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

It still saw a shift. And the vote had a margin of 4%. It wouldn't take a major shift, but in reality, you can't show that there wouldn't be a major shift still. Many people have publicly expressed their shift in opinion on this matter and there are still older people involved in that vote in 2008 that may no longer be with us, replaced by younger people.

Just a technical point...

It wouldn't take a 4% shift. Using your 4% number that represents a 52-48% result. Prop 8 squeaked by on a narrow margin. It only takes a 2% shift to change the outcome. The outcome for California referendums are based on 50%+1 to pass.

Prop 22 (2000) passed with a 23% margin of victory. Prop 8 passed by 5%. From 2000 to 2008 that is a shift of 2.25% per year over the intervening years. If that trend continued on an upward slope, then Prop 8 would have been repealed by the voters in 2012 if it had been on the ballot.

Personally I think there would have been a lot more capital to be made via a repeal effort instead of doing it through the courts. The court victory was a tactical victory, repeal would have been a strategic victory.



>>>>
 
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Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

Ok, I see what you're saying. I read it wrong. Still, the numbers look off - plus the categories overlap somewhat. 8% black turnout seems low and 58% doesn't jibe with other polls. Also, this data says that california voters are almost equally split between liberals, moderates and republicans. I don't think so, not in Liberal Land, USA. If we look for reasons why we don't have to look further than the sponsor of the "study":

Released under the auspices of the
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute.


Its certainly not politically correct to blame prop 8 on blacks and hispanics since it weakens the special interest liberal coalition and seriously dents the narrative that only evil republicans and Xtians are against gay marriage. Thats why you see all these "studies" and "polls" and "debunking" attempts by liberal groups and media.


Ummmm

7% of vote count is their measurement against voter turn out. The above didn't say they were 7% of the poplulation, it said they were 7% of the votes counted.




So let me get this straight you think a 58% vote by 7% of the vote count had more of an influence on the outcome than an 82% vote by 36% of the vote count.

Do you seriously just Conservatives didn't have as much impact African-American's who voted both at a lower percentage of support and at over 5 times less in volume?


>>>>
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage


The impact is from those that were not supposed to vote for prop 8, not the ones that were.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

They were no longer slaves once they were freed, which was taken care of by the 13th Amendment. Which means there is no way that the 14th Amendment was meant to only protect the rights of slaves. It in fact protects the rights of all citizens, particularly from the states and the laws of the various states.

Can you think of anything that was the impetus for these amendments? Or do you think they just came up with them out of the blue?
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

I fully believe that opinions on same sex marriages have changed - my point was that you're not going to see a dramatic shift in CA since it already had strong support. Show me some numbers on changes in african american/hispanic opinion and you may have something since my argument is that the turnout of these two groups - or at least blacks - swung the vote. Polls are polls, elections are elections.

It had less than 50% support in 2010 and now it has over 60%. You may not call that dramatic; I do.

And no, as many other posters have pointed out - black people were not enough of a %age of the vote to have swung the Prop 8 vote. Older people were much more of a factor.
 
Re: Federal judge strikes down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage

It had less than 50% support in 2010 and now it has over 60%. You may not call that dramatic; I do.

And no, as many other posters have pointed out - black people were not enough of a %age of the vote to have swung the Prop 8 vote. Older people were much more of a factor.

Old democrats and independents?
 
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