• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

cpwill

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
75,605
Reaction score
39,893
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well HOT Dog!

The flood of North American crude oil is set to become a deluge as Mexico dismantles a 75-year-old barrier to foreign investment in its oil fields

Plagued by almost a decade of slumping output that has degraded Mexico’s take from a $100-a-barrel oil market, President Enrique Pena Nieto is seeking an end to the state monopoly over one of the biggest crude resources in the Western Hemisphere. The doubling in Mexican oil output that Citigroup Inc. said may result from inviting international explorers to drill would be equivalent to adding another Nigeria to world supply, or about 2.5 million barrels a day.

That boom would augment a supply surge from U.S. and Canadian wells that Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) predicts will vault North American production ahead of every OPEC member except Saudi Arabia within two years. With U.S. refineries already choking on more oil than they can process, producers from Exxon to ConocoPhillips are clamoring for repeal of the export restrictions that have outlawed most overseas sales of American crude for four decades.....

An influx of Mexican oil would contribute to a glut that is expected to lower the price of Brent crude, the benchmark for more than half the world’s crude that has averaged $108.62 a barrel this year, to as low as $88 a barrel in 2017, based on estimates from analysts in a Bloomberg survey. Five of the seven analysts who provided 2017 forecasts said prices would be lower than this year.

The revolution in shale drilling that boosted U.S. oil output to a 25-year high this month will allowNorth America to join the ranks of the world’s crude-exporting continents by 2040, Exxon said in its annual global energy forecast on Dec. 12. Europe and the Asia-Pacific region will be the sole crude import markets by that date, the Irving, Texas-based energy producer said....
Click to expand...


:) This is all kinds of good news, for us and for Mexico. :peace
 
cpwill said:
Well HOT Dog!

:) This is all kinds of good news, for us and for Mexico. :peace
Click to expand...

As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
 
Hatuey said:
As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
Click to expand...

Good reply.

Do you ever think we will get the same treatment as the people in Venezuela? They pay around .29 US for a gallon of gas. If this happens I can drive my Durango again.

I am glad it is quite where I am.
 
Last edited:
Hatuey said:
As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
Click to expand...

Interesting insight. You've brought up things that I never would have otherwise considered because on the surface, this does sound like great news. After reading your post, well... let's just say it's harshed my mellow. What you describe is the absolute last thing the Mexican people need at this point. I was thinking, "cool, more Mexican jobs and a huge boost to the Mexican economy" when in reality what it might really mean is expanded corruption and violence. Thanks for an alternate point of view that I certainly wouldn't have heard about on CNN, or any other MSM outlet.
 
Hatuey said:
As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
Click to expand...
This is good for America.
 
cpwill said:
Well HOT Dog!



:) This is all kinds of good news, for us and for Mexico. :peace
Click to expand...
Click to expand...




I totally agree.

I worked in the oil field a good bit of my life and if someone had said this was coming twenty years ago I would have said no way.

This increased production will be an enormous boost to the USA's economy.
 
Let us drown in oil and our children drown in its consequences!
 
Horrible news. More massive profits for fat American companies and none for the average Mexican.
 
Verax said:
Let us drown in oil and our children drown in its consequences!
Click to expand...

Huh ??

You people don't seem to be too concerned when it comes to the massive debt your President is passing off to the "children".

But make believe end of the world scenarios concern you ??

Silly silly.
 
Hatuey said:
As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
Click to expand...

I guess that means it's better to not have a job at all, so as to avoid the corruption and labor abuses. That's one way to fix things.
 
Fenton said:
Huh ??

You people don't seem to be too concerned when it comes to the massive debt your President is passing off to the "children".

But make believe end of the world scenarios concern you ??

Silly silly.
Click to expand...

The massive debt is the result of healthcare for the elderly, an enormous defense budget, and tax cuts for the only people who have a lot of money (the super rich). These are all Republican causes so I don't know what you think you're talking about. Go shakedown the local poors in your neighborhood and give Uncle Sam the 15 bucks cash and 40 dollars in food stamps and throw it at the deficit, see where it gets us.

End of the world? Silly? You said it, not me.

The consequences will cause a great deal of hardship on future generations, possibly even causing some fairly tragic events to unfold. The world will not end, it will just go on in a substandard fashion for humans because previous generations were greedy and didn't care while the easy energy bubbled out of the ground.
 
Hatuey said:
As far as people go: I'm currently in Mexico and no one here is happy with this. As it is, companies already get away with some of the biggest labor abuses here. With the new investors that will come, the prediction by locals is that the government will be used as a punishing force to anyone who dares oppose oil companies. The comparisons to Nigeria aren't exactly helping. Nigeria is rife with human rights abuses, destruction of habitat and labor abuses. Most Mexicans are already predicting it will also happen here. The next elections will be very interesting to watch. It's already a given that the PRI will lose power federally. The oil producing states of Chiapas, Veracruz and Tabasco are already looking at serious demonstrations. People are well aware of the way in which the government has abused its power to enforce the wishes of corporations.

The violence: The Gulf of Mexico is a place of interest for most as it is currently controlled by the Gulf Cartel and Zetas. When/if Mexico succeeds in luring interests, most Atlantic Ocean states will likely see an increase in violence and even the possibility of an upsurge in kidnappings. It's already happening with the mining industry. Cartels have taken over some mines as well as kidnapped important mining figures in the states of Guanajuato, Zacatecas & San Luis Potosi.

The economy: It is a given that in Mexico, wealth does not trickle down. Governors in the state that I'm in have a history of 1) Using violence/kidnappings to establish their position 2) Steal outrageous sums of money/benefits/licenses from coffers and 3) leave the state. So people are more than convinced that once oil companies are allowed to invest in Mexican oil fields, governors will charge a "fee" for them to operate, siphon the money from whatever levy/taxes are paid by oil companies and then leave. Essentially, for most this means that corruption in the state will actually grow.

My opinion: The only people who seem to be celebrating are those who are those outside of Mexico. Few are actually aware the level of corruption that exists within the country and future investors should be ready to pay out a lot of cash to 1) local governors, 2) cartels and 3) federal employees before they even think about investing here. They will also have to think twice about the violence that will follow their investment. Mexico is not ready for companies to invest in it - not by a long shot.
Click to expand...

I'd say you left out one big group of those celelbrating. Particularly the oil workers and those thinking of it as career field. Oil workers in Mexico make about 500% of the average income. Nothing to scoff at.
 
Fishstyx said:
I'd say you left out one big group of those celelbrating. Particularly the oil workers and those thinking of it as career field. Oil workers in Mexico make about 500% of the average income. Nothing to scoff at.
Click to expand...

Mexico's oil workers gather at the Plaza of Wailing to bemoan corruption and unpaid wages | World news | Guardian Weekly

But for the Mexicans flocking there by the thousands to work for those contractors as non-union welders, pipe fitters, industrial divers and even toilet cleaners, there are other landmarks that speak to the bleak future they fear as President Enrique Peña Nieto seeks historic changes to expand private and foreign investment in the world's eighth-largest oil company.

Stops on this tour include the "Plaza of Wailing", where workers gather to complain about low wages and corrupt bosses; the Last Resort restaurant, where they can eat a meal on credit when they aren't paid on time; and Bocho, one of the $5-a-night bunk-bed
hotels where they sleep before shipping out to the oil platforms that drill in Mexico's biggest oilfields.

While government officials promise that new jobs and other opportunities will arise from opening up Pemex to foreign investors, workers said they are already experiencing a kind of privatisation that the state-run oil monopoly has been engaged in for decades – awarding contracts to companies that hire workers as cheaply as possible to service the platforms spread across the massive oilfields off the coast of the island city.
Click to expand...

"Imagine – I'm going to the platform tonight at 3am, and I have not been paid my salary in two months," said an industrial diver named Antonio, 44, who did not give his last name because he feared that the company he works for would fire him. "And there are thousands like me … Do you know how much money the owner can make playing with our salary for two months?"
Click to expand...

You simply have no idea what it is you're talking about. Mexican oil workers are at the forefront of people worried by this new development. They are also some of the most abused in the country when it comes to wages and rights. They are not paid 500% more than the average worker in Mexico. That's an assinine comment to make in a country where no mimimum wage is established. Mexico is a country where someone can make from 3 dollars an hour to 70,000 a month by being a local politician. So how did you come up with the 500% figure? You made it up or got it from some oil company website.

apdst said:
I guess that means it's better to not have a job at all, so as to avoid the corruption and labor abuses. That's one way to fix things.
Click to expand...

If the options are

1. to be oppressed by a corporation that is backed by the government when it doesn't pay wages, refuses to give health benefits for accidents etc.
2. Not have a job

You may as well not have a job. I wouldn't expect someone who has benefited from the rights unions have fought for to get that. However, in Mexico, such rights are not guaranteed and the government is very unlikely to back workers when abuses are committed. In fact, historically it has acted as a corporation lackey due to the bribes paid off and the general patronship relationships here in Mexico come hand in hand with.
 
reinoe said:
This is good for America.
Click to expand...

Instability at the border is good for America? Get serious and call me when you've been paying attention to the last 6 years.
 
Hatuey said:
Mexico's oil workers gather at the Plaza of Wailing to bemoan corruption and unpaid wages | World news | Guardian Weekly





You simply have no idea what it is you're talking about. Mexican oil workers are at the forefront of people worried by this new development. They are also some of the most abused in the country when it comes to wages and rights. They are not paid 500% more than the average worker in Mexico. That's an assinine comment to make in a country where no mimimum wage is established. Mexico is a country where someone can make from 3 dollars an hour to 70,000 a month by being a local politician. So how did you come up with the 500% figure? You made it up or got it from some oil company website.



If the options are

1. to be oppressed by a corporation that is backed by the government when it doesn't pay wages, refuses to give health benefits for accidents etc.
2. Not have a job

You may as well not have a job. I wouldn't expect someone who has benefited from the rights unions have fought for to get that. However, in Mexico, such rights are not guaranteed and the government is very unlikely to back workers when abuses are committed. In fact, historically it has acted as a corporation lackey due to the bribes paid off and the general patronship relationships here in Mexico come hand in hand with.
Click to expand...

You're going to have a hard time proving that more jobs and economic prosperity are bad for a country.
 
Hatuey said:
Instability at the border is good for America? Get serious and call me when you've been paying attention to the last 6 years.
Click to expand...

More jobs in Mexico means fewer illegal aliens coming across the border looking for a job.
 
apdst said:
More jobs in Mexico means fewer illegal aliens coming across the border looking for a job.
Click to expand...

Good point! :thumbs:

Greetings, apdst. :2wave:
 
Verax said:
The massive debt is the result of healthcare for the elderly, an enormous defense budget, and tax cuts for the only people who have a lot of money (the super rich). These are all Republican causes so I don't know what you think you're talking about. Go shakedown the local poors in your neighborhood and give Uncle Sam the 15 bucks cash and 40 dollars in food stamps and throw it at the deficit, see where it gets us.

End of the world? Silly? You said it, not me.

The consequences will cause a great deal of hardship on future generations, possibly even causing some fairly tragic events to unfold. The world will not end, it will just go on in a substandard fashion for humans because previous generations were greedy and didn't care while the easy energy bubbled out of the ground.
Click to expand...

The green energy subsidies didn't have anything to do with it?
 
apdst said:
You're going to have a hard time proving that more jobs and economic prosperity are bad for a country.
Click to expand...

apdst said:
More jobs in Mexico means fewer illegal aliens coming across the border looking for a job.
Click to expand...

Only the oil industry in under developped countries does not create more jobs and that's been proven to be a fact. The oil workers are already there and they're getting paid less and less or in some cases not at all. So what are they prospering with? Thin air? Because they aren't getting the key factor in your argument: wages.

You've started off with a strawman. What has been argued is that in an underdevelopped country (such as Mexico) rife with corruption, labor abuses and human rights abuses, wealth is kept at the top and the prosperity only comes to those directing the projects from an executive possition. Saudi Arabia, the largest producer of oil in the world has also some of the highest poverty rates in the world. The list goes on: Venezuela, Nigeria, Kuwait. The pattern is obvious and has been explored before. In underdevelopped countries, oil does not mean prosperity for the country. It means prosperity for a select few and poverty and oppression for the rest.

The second part of your post is just laughable. What percentage of those who cross the border do oil workers constitute? The majority of those who cross the border are low skilled workers working in food manufaturing, cleaning services and grounds keeping. So what would opening up Mexico to oil field work do? Nothing. Especially considering oil companies are notorious for abusing the rights of workers and not paying wages.
 
Last edited:
PeteEU said:
Horrible news. More massive profits for fat American companies and none for the average Mexican.
Click to expand...

This is probably true to a large extent, not that I'm against business making money. All at a time when Mexico doesn't have their act together in its dealing with corruption and organized crime. Mexican oil workers will be paid as little as the oil companies can get away with paying them without them quitting. They will probably see a good amount American immigration to Mexico, not necessarily a bad thing. The oil futures market will buy up each drilling project prior to it being being pumped out of the ground and then scalp it at a profit to eventually be passed on to consumers. It will then be sold to the highest bidder; China, the US, Europe, Africa, whoever will willing to pay the most. This is a far cry from suggesting it will automatically go supplying the energy needs of North America. Every barrel of oil pumped out of the ground today is defunding the exponential value it would have otherwise had in the future when everybody else has used theirs up and forgoing a future where the world's wealth would be unquestionably centered in the Americas; raid the investment portfolio today and live hand to mouth tomorrow. Good news? Depends on perspective I guess.
 
cpwill said:
Well HOT Dog!



:) This is all kinds of good news, for us and for Mexico. :peace
Click to expand...

Did anyone besides me notice this part of the article:
That boom would augment a supply surge from U.S. and Canadian wells that Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) predicts will vault North American production ahead of every OPEC member except Saudi Arabia within two years. With U.S. refineries already choking on more oil than they can process, producers from Exxon to ConocoPhillips are clamoring for repeal of the export restrictions that have outlawed most overseas sales of American crude for four decades.....
Click to expand...

and wonder if reducing the amt of oil available for sale in the US could actually increase the price for us?
 
This is excellent news, but only if somehow the cartels are corraled, which is an age-old problem here and much of the world.

I fear the U.S. military will be needed to occupy Mexico for this to be possible, and nobody wants that.

If somehow Mexico became legit, it would help to curtail the mass illegal immigration to the states, but until the cartels are killed off, there's little hope this will work.

I'm sure Russia and China are giddy. They don't give a rip about cartels and terrorists, they just want their oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom