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North America to Drown in Oil as Mexico Ends Monopoly

No we weren't, wrong thread. We were talking about the wisdom of Mexico openning the management of it oil fields to all comers. You tried to shoehorn the crystal ball expense of climate change, specifically AGW, into the equation. And that last is silly to the extreme, BOTH parties are funded by big oil and gas.

You responded to my response to Fenton

No the massive debt is the consequence of millions of idiots equating empty plattitudes to Presidential qualifications in 2008 and 2012.

A 5 year long " recovery as unemploymet benefits and disabillity benefits along with medicare cost have doubled.

Nwxt time don't re-elect a President who's obe jobs iniative was a green jobs venture that wasted BILLIONS and created no jobs.

How is the expense of climate change silly as being part of the equation??? If not for that then we might as well use all the fossil fuels we can get ahold of. Vehicles burn cleaner than ever so pollution isn't as much of a problem. Coal is still horrible to try and make cleaner. None of this matters though compared to climate change...
 
Mexico is just waiting for a US collapse so they can invade us...

They're not our friends and have never been- they're just bitter losers.

Can't tell if you're joking, you should use the smileys if so. We've already had our continuing Mexican invasion, and the invaders go the way when the US isn't doing so well.
 
Instability at the border is good for America? Get serious and call me when you've been paying attention to the last 6 years.

I live near the border, this is bad news for many communities on both sides of that border.
 
Do you think so? I thought the plant zones have moved in the last 20 years.
Long Overdue Plant Hardiness Map is a Hothouse | Mother Jones

They have, but that's not just the last 20 years but all of planetary history. It has nothing to do with the specious comment about Earth "adapting" or even the adaption of the planet species themselves. In fact it shows they aren't adapting to changing conditions but relocating to places they can survive without adaption. Over time those plant species will adapt, or go extinct.
 
No, not in the way you are using the term. Biological adaptation has a meaning I don't think you get. Try this:

Adaptation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Funny how I said adaptation and you said biological adaptation - which is speaking out both sides of ones face just using wacko PC language to do such - to separate the ideas.

Wicki can justify just about every argument.

Kudos to you tho for even going to a source instead of an op-ed piece in an attempt to justify your position.
 
Maybe because that IS a natural process. It happenned before man came along and once man got here. Again, nothing unnatural or purely manmade about those dead zones.

the nitroen cycle is natural, but what is not natural is the amount of nitrogen that is created by humans, mainly in the form of synthetic fertilizer. Farmers love the synthetic stuff, and use far more synthetic fertilizer than organic fertilizers such as manure and compost. all that ferilizer is chockfull of excess nitrogen, and some of this excess material eventually makes it to the ocean. that is where the trouble begins.

all that excess nitrogen causes water to become polluted and it starts a massive growth of algae and phytoplankton, which feed on the nitrogen. this growth creates a greater demand for biochemical oxygen, a demand so great that it consumes the supply of oxygen in that region of water, which is now a dead zone.

human activity, in this case farmers using vast amounts of artificial fertilizers on their farms, had a impact on causing a natural process, the nitrogen cycle, to go overboard and cause damage to the environment.
 
You responded to my response to Fenton

My apologies.

How is the expense of climate change silly as being part of the equation??? If not for that then we might as well use all the fossil fuels we can get ahold of. Vehicles burn cleaner than ever so pollution isn't as much of a problem. Coal is still horrible to try and make cleaner. None of this matters though compared to climate change...

It's extremely silly because the baisc truth is climate is ALWAYS changing, the planet we live on is geologically active and ALWAYS changing. It was that way before man and will be that way after. Like arguing Mexico shouldn't open it's leases to the outside because there is air.

Climate change is a basic fact of life on this planet.
 
Funny how I said adaptation and you said biological adaptation - which is speaking out both sides of ones face just using wacko PC language to do such - to separate the ideas.

Wicki can justify just about every argument.

Kudos to you tho for even going to a source instead of an op-ed piece in an attempt to justify your position.

the problem is that the process of adaptation takes time on a scale of hundreds of thousands of years.
 
Funny how I said adaptation and you said biological adaptation - which is speaking out both sides of ones face just using wacko PC language to do such - to separate the ideas.

Wicki can justify just about every argument.

Kudos to you tho for even going to a source instead of an op-ed piece in an attempt to justify your position.

Notice the link isn't to "biological adaptation" but "adaptation". I added the biological so you might understand you were misusing the word in the context of the discussion. Thus far you have demonstrated that you don't understand my position.

Perhaps a refresher course at the local community college, Bio 101 might help you to understand that "adaptation" is indeed a defined term in biology and not some PC invention.
 
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Mexico's oil workers gather at the Plaza of Wailing to bemoan corruption and unpaid wages | World news | Guardian Weekly


You simply have no idea what it is you're talking about. Mexican oil workers are at the forefront of people worried by this new development. They are also some of the most abused in the country when it comes to wages and rights. They are not paid 500% more than the average worker in Mexico. That's an assinine comment to make in a country where no mimimum wage is established. Mexico is a country where someone can make from 3 dollars an hour to 70,000 a month by being a local politician. So how did you come up with the 500% figure? You made it up or got it from some oil company website.

The article sites those that are being stung by subcontractors. PEMEX employees are some of the highest paid blue collar workers in Mexico. If the wages are filtering down to the actual workers, blame the corrupt union down there. The proposal to allow foreign investment would go a long way to rein in this type of corruption. The salary figure was based on a rig workers recruiting website. In addition, one of the reasons they're pushing for this infusion of investment is to firm up PEMEX's pension fund which funds a PEMEX employee 100% of their salary after the age of 55. What other industry in Mexico offers a pension like that?

I know this doesn't fit your view, but oil companies aren't making cheap plastic toys or trendy electronics. Rigs are complicated and they pay competitive wages to attract the best qualified which is who you want working your equipment valued in the 100s of millions of dollars.

Sorry man, the bottom line is the mess that the Mexican oil industry is in is caused by two things. Nationalization and the corruption that i fueled. By opening the door on for foreign investment, it potentially can reduce the corruption as most companies won't invest in resources that are ripe with corruption...its unstable.
 
I live near the border, this is bad news for many communities on both sides of that border.

That's insane...

You guys have illegals running every which way - through your yards, down the streets...
 
Notice the link isn't to "biological adaption" but "adaption". I added the biological so you might understand you were misusing the word in the context of the discussion. Thus far you have demonstrated that you don't understand my position.

I'm not misusing adaptation - you are...

You're attempting to claim Geo is not living...
 
My apologies.



It's extremely silly because the baisc truth is climate is ALWAYS changing, the planet we live on is geologically active and ALWAYS changing. It was that way before man and will be that way after. Like arguing Mexico shouldn't open it's leases to the outside because there is air.

Climate change is a basic fact of life on this planet.

The climate change going on now is unnatural, it is way too fast. Many species are at risk of extinction. This is the fastest extinction in history, it is not normal. We are dependent on the environment...
 
the problem is that the process of adaptation takes time on a scale of hundreds of thousands of years.

That isn't a problem at all..... The Earth is only 4.5 billion years old....
 
the nitroen cycle is natural, but what is not natural is the amount of nitrogen that is created by humans, mainly in the form of synthetic fertilizer. Farmers love the synthetic stuff, and use far more synthetic fertilizer than organic fertilizers such as manure and compost. all that ferilizer is chockfull of excess nitrogen, and some of this excess material eventually makes it to the ocean. that is where the trouble begins.

all that excess nitrogen causes water to become polluted and it starts a massive growth of algae and phytoplankton, which feed on the nitrogen. this growth creates a greater demand for biochemical oxygen, a demand so great that it consumes the supply of oxygen in that region of water, which is now a dead zone.

human activity, in this case farmers using vast amounts of artificial fertilizers on their farms, had a impact on causing a natural process, the nitrogen cycle, to go overboard and cause damage to the environment.

Indeed, and I understand the the pros and cons of the Faber process. However, that is not the only cause of dead zones, nor where it is the cause, is it always manmade fertilizers at fault. My point is that dead zones are a natural phenomenon. Where they are strictly man caused, we should and do take efforts to lessen their impact.
 
the biosphere is what lives.

you are thinking about the Lithosphere since you brought up plate tectonics.

Plate tectonics - plate tectonics are partially caused by the moon

Why do you thin the geological record is so shotty when it comes to climate or previous climates being usless to research? Because the rocks that give a story only tell us a story about the position of that land millions of years ago - which is certainly NOT in the same position that land is at now.
 
I'm not misusing adaptation - you are...

You're attempting to claim Geo is not living...

If you believe that geology is the study of living things you need more than one refresher course to get back up to speed. :lamo
 
Wait, I thought you said that this abuse already happens?

Yes, I was saying where will the outrage be when the new investors show up and start playing the same game other corporations are playing?

Besides, if US companies were getting busy in Mexico making investments, I'd imagine that they would want to be safe from said cartels. Like it or not, that may be an avenue for the US government to assist Mexico in its local cartel war.

My solution would be taking a similar approach the IMF took with Chile in the 80s. As much as I despise Milton Friedman his plan actually had the unintended effect of cleaning up a lot of the corruption in Chile. My changes to the plan would be to have Mexico sign several binding political/economical agreements. The first would be one where:

1) the Mexican political system is slimmed down. You ever seen the Mexican house chamber? There are ~400 people in it. ~150 of whom are not elected. They are picked (think of the US delegate system, only these guys get paid outrageous sums of money and are picked as favors to corporations). Also, I would add that the Mexican political system would have to slim down all of their institutes. There are literally dozens of institutes for every and anything you can think of. They should be combined or completely done away with.

2) Any money received through taxes/levy should not be directed towards state coffers (at least for the first 3 years) but programs independently set up by companies in conjunction with the government. During that 3 year transition period, companies can enforce Western work ethics as well as establish protocols for how money should be handled by the state. (Like a will almost)

3) Create strong corruption watchdogs within the state governments observed by outside entities (the IMF and WBO seem like the right people for the job). They would be in charge of ensuring workers are paid, human rights abuses are not overlooked and HR departments are strongly represented. If any abuses are reported/overlooked Mexico would have their loan interests raised.

This seems radical, however after 1.5 years living here, I've come to think of Mexico as a country with great potential but a terrible economic culture. The culture here doesn't foster reliance on the government, however it does foster a distrust of companies and the government working together. So it is my opinion that an outside agency is necessary. One which not only has the power to punish government corruption but also corporate abuses.
 
Indeed, and I understand the the pros and cons of the Faber process. However, that is not the only cause of dead zones, nor where it is the cause, is it always manmade fertilizers at fault. My point is that dead zones are a natural phenomenon. Where they are strictly man caused, we should and do take efforts to lessen their impact.

You're making this an issue, when it's NOT.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence to support any of it other than speculation - and if we're going to use "speculation" than we should be living in water world or "Snowball Earth" as was predicted by the global warming or cooling nuts back in the 70's....

Funny how we're not all drowning or freezing...
 
Indeed, and I understand the the pros and cons of the Faber process. However, that is not the only cause of dead zones, nor where it is the cause, is it always manmade fertilizers at fault. My point is that dead zones are a natural phenomenon. Where they are strictly man caused, we should and do take efforts to lessen their impact.

it does not matter if the cause solely manmade, we are contributing to their creation.
 
If you believe that geology is the study of living things you need more than one refresher course to get back up to speed. :lamo

When did I ever say or even imply that?

No, that would be anthropology (you're being general so)..
 
PEMEX employees are some of the highest paid blue collar workers in Mexico. If the wages are filtering down to the actual workers, blame the corrupt union down there.

More uncited nonsense. Prove it. Show us how much they're paid and then tell us what the average blue collar worker here makes. ;) Bet you can't. Blame the union? For what? Labor abuses? Human rights abuses? Not getting paid? The union doesn't cut the check at PEMEX.
 
I never said replace, I said transition. And what makes you so sure? Do you have scientific proof its impossible? What are we going to do when we run out of oil? Humanity will mostly be wiped out because its impossible to do anything else sustainably?

That is utterly ridiculous.

EDIT: An example since you said ethanol has not been proven to be sustainable. No its not perfect but it is one tool in the toolbox and can work for certain regions. Alternative energy success is an integrated solution that involves many different sources and technologies. They all add up to create a significant benefit in the long run.

Ethanol fuel in Brazil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It cost the taxpayers an incredible amount of money here between the farm subsidies and government supports needed just so it can survive. Then you have to addresss the various transportation vehicle engines that cause their owners trouble because of the moisture issues that is part of the ethanol blend. I won't burn it in anything I plan on keeping over 1 year.
 
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